After some delay, I’m hoping to get back into my guitar case project. The door (sketch attached) is fairly large (46″h X 23″w) and will be fitted with glass. I had planned to use a router stile and rail set to make the joints and I designed the rails a little wide to create greater surface area for gluing. Now I’m wondering if that’s strong enough given the size of the doors and the fact that they’ll have the big glass panels.
Any thoughts?
Replies
"Now I'm wondering if that's strong enough given the size of the doors and the fact that they'll have the big glass panels"
I think your instincts are right... follow them. Why not go with mortise and tenon and sleep better at nights :-)
Frank
Actually, I think you'd be okay. 24" wide is a normal size of a kitchen door, 46" tall is a bit taller but you're showing 3" rails top and bottom instead of the normal 1 1/2" so you have twice as much glue area there. Also install the glass with silicone to help make the frame ridgid. I'd go with 4 hinges for strength.
Quick,
On big doors like that, there's a trick I employ....
First of all though, I don't think the door is too big for normal rail and stile routing. You have quite a bit of surface area at the joints. Of course mortise and tenon would be stronger. But....
If you want to be sure that the door has no problems, I have "glued" my glass panels in to add strength. Basically, I use a little caulk/adhesive which is flexible and glue in the glass with a thin bead all the way around. Then I cover the panel as usual with keeper strips (more decoration than anything at that point).
Doing this makes the door a complete stressed skin, just like a piece of plywood. No problems at all. And if the glass breaks, the stuff I use is very easy to scrap off for refit of new glass.
This is a lot like gluing hinges directly to the glass (the heaviest member of the door).
Good luck
Rob Kress
It is one of those questions that would be a lot easier to answer if we had facts or empirical data to guide us. Looking at the Joinery Shootout article from Jan/Feb 2009, you can see that cope-and-stick is near the bottom of the list while many others do much better. Granted your door has wide rails so cope-and-stick might very well be OK but your concern given the weight of the glass and the fact the panel won't help against racking seems a healthy concern to me.
Why take the risk if *you* think it might not be enough. No harm going to a stronger joint, right?
Edited 10/7/2009 10:05 am ET by Senomozi
"No harm going to a stronger joint, right?"
You're absolutely correct. Here's the thing - I don't know how to make the corners in a mortise and tenon joint. I've got the stugg to make them, just never have. My stile and rail set includes an ogee and of course when you put the rails in the stiles, they just fit. I guess for mortise and tenon, you rout the entire length and then trim back the routed part on the stile, creating miters that mate when the whole works goes together?
Remember, too, that almost all of the weight of the glass will be on the bottom rail. Design-wise, the objective is to transfer that weight to the stile, then to the hinges, and then to the side panel of the case. The top rail could be made narrower, since it isn't carrying much weight, and the bottom rail a bit wider perhaps. A mortice and tenon joint, or a pegged half-lap would probably do a better job of weight transfer than a routed cope/stile joint, though. All depends on the look you're after.
Edited 10/7/2009 2:18 pm by RalphBarker
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Remember, too, that almost all of the weight of the glass will be on the bottom rail. Design-wise, the objective is to transfer that weight to the stile, then to the hinges, and then to the side panel of the case. The top rail could be made narrower, since it isn't carrying much weight, and the bottom rail a bit wider perhaps.
<<<<<<<<This is why I glue with caulk adhesive to attach the glass to the frame. Using flexible adhesive distributes all of the load over the entire hinge stile and partially on the bottom and top rail. The flexible stuff allows for movement in the wood so nothing cracks or twists. No adhesive does actually mean all the load is resting on the bottom rail.Rob Kress
I'm assuming, Rob, that you apply the caulk adhesive to the frame, then lay in the glass, and then nail retainer strips to the inside. How much space do you allow between the edge of the glass and the inside edges of the dadoes? I'm also guessing that you are allowing some time for the caulk to cure prior to raising the door to a vertical position. If my assumptions are correct, I'd be interested in knowing where the glass rests after some time hanging in a vertical position. If the caulk is flexible, does the glass actually migrate to the lowest possible position (against the bottom rail)?
Ralph,Yep. All that. I leave a little space.... maybe 1/8th all the way around or so. I don't really get too hung up on the amount of space because up to this point, I have not made any doors with a significant amount of wood in the frame. So the absolute amount of linear movement in either of the two directions is not likely to be very big.I haven't had any sagging of my glass yet. I think I have a pair of doors going on 3 or 4 years now and the glass is near 2' x 4'.So far it's been a good method for me. And there is the added benefit of non-rattling glass when the door closes.Rob
Just to be clear, I wasn't criticizing your method, just curious about the long-term physics.
Dig it!I didn't think you were.Rob "my skin is not that thin" Kress
Ralph,In my experience the glass will move rather quickly to the bottom. I often put just a little squeeze of clear RTV in each corner (I hate cleaning up squeeze-out), lay the glass in the frame and shift it downwards as far as it's willing to go. That way it doesn't have anywhere to sag to. Set the molding strips with a 23 gauge pinner, and let it rest horizontal overnight. For most normally sized glass panes, it's complete overkill to run the adhesive all the way around.David Ring
http://www.touchwood.co.il/?lang=e&id=1
You are correct about the procedure for making a mitered mortise and tenon frame. Have a look at: https://www.finewoodworking.com/SkillsAndTechniques/SkillsAndTechniquesArticle.aspx?id=30762.Another alternative is to apply a molding with the desired profile after door has been assembled mortise and tenon. See https://www.finewoodworking.com/subscription/SkillsAndTechniques/SkillsAndTechniquesArticle.aspx?id=27042I prefer the first method when using only one wood species. However, the second method allows you to use a secondary wood for the molding. For example, a simple bead molding out of walnut on a frame and panel door made of maple or birch looks really really nice.
Quickstep,
I have read the suggestions of the others here and as usual many good ones, I'll add mine. Drill the styles and rails for dowels, then run them through your cope and stick bits as usual. This will allow you to size your rails and styles as you please and have less obstruction, as it is a display case.
For what it is worth the glass in the doors pictured are 1/4" thick and glued in with silicone, the styles and rails are standard cope and stick {no Dowels} all 2- 1/2" wide and have held up just fine in my kitchen for the past 8 years with no signs of failing.{I open and close them everyday to turn lights on and off} hope this helps.
Tom
As far as aesthetics is concerned I would make the top rail a little less wide than the bottom.
This will help avoid the issue of having the door appear "top heavy" with the wide rail on top.
Maybe go 2.25" for the stiles and 2.5" for the top and 3" for the bottom rail.
I have made big doors like this and just used double strength glass and nail in glass bead with no silicone or adhesive.
I do use mortised butt hinges to hang the doors.
F.
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