Disappointed with Lee Valley/Veritas
I’m building a “really nice” workbench, my third workbench (echoes of the Workbench Book). I’ve completed the trestle style base using 8/4 maple and double wedged tenons and it looks pretty good, if I may say so. Note that I won’t be posting closeups of my joints soon; that’ll take some more experience and skill. But, I put a lot of work and good maple into the trestle base and its solid and heavy and looks good.
To make the job reasonable and get it done in this decade, I bought a 2 3/4″ laminated skab from Veritas for the top; it’s big and heavy at 110 lbs. When it arrived, I moved it into the garage because rain was imminent (in Sacto in April!!!). Today, with the base now in the outbuilding being finished, my brother, wife, and I put the top on the old workbench and I removed the packaging. What a disappointment!
The top was really beat up. To use it, I will have to rout pockets in two badly beat up top corners, glue in repairs, trim flat and even on the sides, and refinish the top. I’d also have to just live with the big ding in the middle of the slab because it would be impractical to repair it. Added to this is another disappointment. The top is not laminated from solid strips. The strips are pieced together from finger-jointed maple and the top is laced with finger joints. It looks tacky and machine made.
I don’t know what I’m going to do – it weighs 110 lbs and I am not very good at handling heavy slabs after three back operations spread over a 30 years and I don’t relish taking it to a shipper for return. I’m going to call lee valley tomorrow and talk about what to do. I doubt I’ll keep it because I’ll never be able to look at it and not feel angry and disappointed. It looks like another trip to Berkeley and McBeath Hardwoods for more 8/4 maple and a long and tedious job of cutting laminations, glueing, truing, and finishing the top. But it will be even more MY bench!
Even worse, I ordered the twin screw Veritas vise on sale from Woodcraft. Well, one of the nuts that the screw goes into was bunged up and Veritas had to send a replacement. My opinion: Lee Valley/Veritas is riding the wave of new wood workers and has let quality control slip. Not a good long range strategy because customers just won’t come back again.
My failure: Whenever you get a package, open it RIGHT AWAY and inspect. If it is damaged, as this top was (note that some of the damage looks older and DOES NOT SEEM TO HAVE OCCURRED DURING SHIPMENT!), return the product immediately.
I courteously invite a veritas representative to reply to this post and explain why I got products that are badly damaged on arrival and what Lee Valley will do to prevent it’s happening in the future. I’m going to suggest that this be the case when I talk to the Lee Valley rep tomorrow. I’ll post again this weekend to fill you in on any resolution.
Replies
Have you called Lee Valley about returning the item? I returned some items about 3 months since I bought them. They accepted them and credited the shipping cost as well. They weren't as heavy as a workbench top but it did cost me $20 in postage to send them.
I have never had a problem returning an item to them and they have always been very pleasant.
I've also been able to arrange a pickup with UPS and other carriers to pick up the item from my home.
If your looking for a top call some of your local hardwood lumber yards. They don't advertise them but they can usually get them. I purchased a very nice top in L.A. (7' x 2' x1-3/4) for $230. They had to order it but were able to get it within a couple of days.
Hope this helps and good luck.
Len
Well, one thing that I'm sure about is that the trucking company didn't finger joint the top. That's crappy and the top should go back for that reason alone. I think one should expect long, continuous laminations not finger jointed short scraps.
What a disappointment from what seems to be a good company.
BC,
I think Mike is warning us. It says right in the advertisement 'Finger Jointed' and he picture does not hide that point either. Like Mike, however, I never would have paid any attention to those words...who would expect they would sell a finger jointed workbench top...how gauche...
I've had the workbench from LV for 6 years , fingerjointed and all and it's stood up to plenty of whomps from heavy mortising without a problem. The finger joints are not going to affect its function, IMHO. Are you criticising its appeal as furniture?
SSittler,
My comments are pure snobbery....of course it won't effect performance...its a perfectly good way to go.
The key to telemiketoo's issue is in the comment 'this is his third workbench'. Additonal perfection in both functionality and look is to be pursued with each version.....finger joint top ain't it.
Just curiouis, when you bought the twin screw vise did you buy just the hardware or did you get the two wooden jaws as well. If you did buy the jaws, what did you think of them?
Mike
Did the top come truck freight? I tell my customers to inspect before they sign. If damage is found, then instruct the driver to send it back freight collect. Call me and a replacement will be on the way before the original even gets back. We ship about 1000 items a month by truck lines. We get about 10% to 12% damage. We ship about 65,000 packages a month on UPS. We get less than 1% damage. Some items are just too big to go Ups Oversize. Truck is the only alternative.
If it is truck, you will have to re-package. There customer service should tell you exactly how to return the item. You may have to call the local truck carrier on your end to arrange a pick-up. I'm personally curious to see how they handle it, so please post the results.
Good luck...
sarge..jt
TMT, while I empathize completely with your disappointment at opening up a long-awaited package and finding damaged goods inside, it seems more than a bit unfair to ream Lee Valley in an international forum, prior to even talking to them, for what appears to be (a) shipping damage and (b) oversights on your part.
Taking (b) first: If the bench slab you ordered is one of the two pictured on page 179 of the current catalog, the finger-joint design shows clearly in the picture. The price is another hint that these are not made from contiguous maple stock. You state that the top looks "tacky and machine-made." It seems unlikely that a company could afford to hand-make a benchtop from solid, continuous 60" long maple stock and sell it for $199 (1-1/4" thick) or $269 (2-1/4" thick).
Taking (a) second: The location of the damage points to shipper mis-handling.
Everything I have heard about LVV indicates that they will go out of their way to provide excellent customer service. Just recently, they contacted a number of customers well after their purchase to notify them that an item shipped did not meet the correct specifications and that they would replace it for free.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
telemiketoo,
I have to second Forest Girl's message. To publicly criticize a company without giving them a chance to rectify a problem is totally irresponsible. You should be ashamed of yourself.
I suspect LV will treat you with much more respect than you have them and, more respect than you deserve.
John
Ooooooh, I'm not sure I want my name in the same "breath" (post) as "...than you deserve." That was a little, harsh!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I have had good service from Lee Valley. Nothing exceptional, but more than satisfactory.
A bench top of that size made without finger joints (a very good joint for the purpose used) would cost almost $199 in lumber alone. Clear 8/4 maple in that length is not going to come cheap.
Give them a chance to rectify the problem. No company wants to dissapoint their customers, expcecially with a slow economy.
Agreed on the finger joints, especially with maple or other woods that aren't that stable....I'd rather have a stable top than a pretty one. The wood window people also use fingerjoints, not because they're cheap, but because they're careful, and they're trying to limit problems.
Anyone else remember when we used to use maple for benches because it was cheap??cabinetmaker/college instructor. Cape Breton, N.SWAY too conservative to be merely right wing
TMT-
I'll throw my two-cents worth in as well. It's unfortunate that your bench top arrived in the condtion you described. But to LV's credit, they have always provided excellent customer service on my purchases and any returned merchandise. Give them the opportunity to remedy your situation. Let us know how it turns out.
T2
Hi -
We don't normally service orders in a public forum - but as you've already posted, here's a reply.
If you're not happy with anything you buy from us, we'll be glad to refund your money - including your original shipping charges and return postage - you won't be out a dime. That is our standard service policy.
Also - our website clearly shows the type of finger joints used in the top, in addition to stating in the copy that the tops are finger jointed - if you search for item 03A0320 and click on the blue "view" link in the price line - you can see a clear picture of the joints. To be fair, the catalog copy for these slabs does not (yet) state they're finger jointed (though our production copy has already been modified to say this). I suspect that when we reduced the product image in the catalog, the finger joints became too small to see - a type of omission that sometimes occurs, and which we address as soon as we can.
As for the damage in shipment, while we regret the inconvenience, we don't have much control over how the parcel's handled. Your (now ours again) benchtop travelled about 3000 miles. It's big, heavy, and affords lots of surface area to incur damage.
I trust that when you call our service department, you'll be properly looked after. Sorry for the inconvenience...
Rob Lee
President
Lee Valley Tools Ltd.
(BTW - I will be out of the office for the next week, and will be unable to follow the balance of this thread. Should you have further comments/concerns, I'd be glad to address them after the 7th....)
Mr. Lee, thank you for taking the time to come to this forum and clarify Lee Valley's position on this type of problem. Just wanted to let you know that the catalog picture does show at least one finger-joint in the top. It doesn't exactly jump out at the reader, but it's there. Having that construction detail mentioned in the copy is certainly a good idea. For the most part, we Knotheads are a pretty fair-minded group. Hope you can return again!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Mr. Lee,
I would like to thank you for your response and while it wasn't directed to me. I applaud your commitment to customer service.
Len
Sometimes, and in the long run, it makes sense for a company the stature of Lee Valley not to feature a bargain offering like a finger jointed benchtop (as well intentioned as that decision might have been). You want to avoid cheapening the Lee Valley brand, which is more associated these days with a nice line of planes, nice measuring instruments, and other very high quality shop accessories.
Finger jointed anything, as serviceable as it might be, is anathema to the image I think you're trying to project with your other merchandise.
Edited 6/27/2003 5:58:45 PM ET by BossCrunk
RLee
No company has control of the product once it is consigned to the shipper. How they handle it after the shipper has run aground is the key to the level of customer service.
Well done. I will look forward to doing business with your company in the future as I just recieved some of your product to add to one's I already have.
BTW, when did you say you would be running that 50% OFF Sale? < G >
Regards...
sarge..jt
I'm replying to Mr. Lee and to many of the others in this note. I posted last night prior to contacting lee valley because I was very upset and disappointed. However, my observations about Lee Valley quality control are correct considering the two Veritas items I've purchased and the damage that I observed.
One corner and the sides appear to have been, or could have been, damaged in transit. Another corner seems to have old damage looking at the slight patina on the wood. The big ding, and the other dings (dents), in the top were NOT shipping damage because the packaging is unmarked over the dings and the dings could not have been made without damaging the cardboard. This damage was done before the product was shipped.
That said, as I have posted in a followup thread, your customer service was very courteous, helpful, appologetic, and accepted the damaged goods back with no argument. Your company is good and your products are innovative - just work a bit on the quality control.
As for shipping, the quality of the shipping and packaging is the seller's responsibility. Products from Woodcraft have always arrived on time and in good condition. Stuff shipped from Northern Hydraulics has arrived well packed and in good shape. Stuff from Amazon shipped by the U.S. Post Office - 50% has arrived, 50% had to be reshipped by air freight (at amazon expense, no arguments) because it disappeared into limbo. The shipping (and packaging) is part of the total experience of buying by mail, phone, or internet and is as important as any other aspect of the sale and should be an important consideration to the seller.
As for finger joints, I'm bad here and I would not have returned the slab if this were the only issue. In fact, if the damage had not required such extensive repair, I would have kept it and been planing wood on my new bench in a couple of weeks.
As for the issue of finger joints and being overly picky with the top, well, this is my bench, I'm making it for me, and if you don't like my approach, you can make your bench anyway you want. There are just too many folks in the USA right now that know just how everyone else should think and live.
All I can say is, you have to be careful with Lee Valley. I buy a fair amount of stuff from them and their customer service is great, but their overall product quality is inconsistent. Sometimes I am very disappointed with the cheesy, plastic quality of the products they sell, especially the Veritas brand. Other times I think it's great. As a company, they just don't seem to have finally decided whether they are going to sell high-quality, middle-brow quality, or bargain basement quality, and because everything looks terrific in their glossy catalog and all of their text descriptions say this particular product is wonderful, you just can't be sure until you take it out of the box. Based on my own experience as well as other threads on this issue in the past, I think that's a corporate-level issue that Mr. Lee should spend some time on with his top managers. So your experience was not atypical, and is a function of the somewhat confused Lee Valley marketing strategies, not your personal bad manners.
Hey maybe Mr. Lee should hire you to run the show.
I have no complaints about the things I have bought from them, I like LEE Valley.
Is your work bench for display or for work? My work bench is for woodworking it has dents starches gouges oh my, its a work bench.
Sounds to me they are bending over backwards trying to please you
If their tops don't suite you why not make your own- oh yea you cant do that you don't have a workbench
HA!
You're responding to the wrong person. I'm not the person who had the problem with the workbench. In fact, I built my own!
Oh I'm so sorry I got confused now that I re read I see what I done- Your post was similar in content to the post from telemiketoo about Lee Valley - Sorry
It's kinda obvious that LV is a "boutique" tool supplier.
They offer different kind of tools at very high prices. I don't think that their target market is people who are in the WW trade to make a living.
However, I've been wrong before.The proof is in the puddin'
get a life, this e-mail is totally inappropriate
I doubt very much if they are riding a new wave since they've been in business about 25 years and I've been dealing with them for all that time. Once a product leaves their warehouse they don't have any control over whether some guy had his coffee that morning or his wife nagged at him before he left to go to work. Sure, I've had problems with them but for the most part found them more than willing to correct any mistakes they or their shippers have made.
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