Replies

1. 
   ring | Mar 02, 2009 09:41am | #1

   Rob,

   Lots of questions! I think the first thing you need to decide is on the character of the table. A veneered top will lead you in the direction of a refined and elegant table. A solid wood top will be more Arts and Crafts or even rustic in character. Once you've got a vision of the "feel" of it, all the aspects will start to fall into place.

   You can do inlays in either medium. The veneered torsion box leaves you with more freedom to inlay anything in any direction. But even in solid wood you can do inlays if you respect the grain direction and/or break them up into sections that will absorb the top's expansion and contraction.

   David Ring

   http://www.touchwood.co.il/?lang=e&id=1

1. 
   JeffHeath | Mar 02, 2009 09:06pm | #6

   David

   Does your shop do its veneering with a vacuum bag system, or have you moved on to a press machine (like RJones Furniture has)?  Does your shop do a lot of veneering?  Thanks for the info.

   Jeff

1. 
   ring | Mar 02, 2009 11:17pm | #8

   Jeff, we subcontract all our veneer work to someone with a large press. The cost is so nominal that it just doesn't pay to consider anything else. We pay about $10 to have him veneer a 4x8 sheet of anything (both sides), and run it thru the widebelt sander at 120 grit after pressing. Of course that doesn't include the cost of the veneer itself. We use altogether anywhere from 40 to 80 sheets of material per month - ply and MDF with veneers and/or HPL glued to the faces. In some cases I need to choose the veneers in person but for the most part the materials get ordered and sent directly to the press before we even see them, and then shipped to us. Takes about a week from the phone order until it's delivered to our door, ready for the tablesaw. The only veneering we do ourselves is the occasional curved surface, but it's rare.How you feeling lately?David Ring

   http://www.touchwood.co.il/?lang=e&id=1

1. 
   JeffHeath | Mar 02, 2009 11:48pm | #9

   That sounds like an extremely efficient way of doing things, especially for that kind of volume. 

   I'm feeling great, and thanks for asking.  My lungs have improved to what I call 95%, and they probably aren't going to get any better.  I'm working out 5 to 6 days a week, and doing 3.5 to 4 miles a day on the elliptical machine I bought for my wife and myself at Christmas.  Heck, I've even lost 20 lbs..

   I no longer buy any plywood made in China, and where a respirator all the time in the shop when cutting any plywood.  It sucks, and is very uncomfortable, but I just can't risk going through that nonsense again.

   Hope all is well with you, and I hope it stays that way.

   Take care,

   Jeff

1. 
   robkress | Mar 03, 2009 02:14am | #11

   Fellas,Hey, I have been reading more and following your conversation and that has instigated more questions. You guys have been talking about making a torsion box. Is that really necessary? I was just going to take 2 sheets of plywood and glue together for 1.5" thick. Then I was going to put on a top and bottom layer of near 1/4 or 1/8" fancy wood. Is that not the way to go? I would actually prefer a heavier table. Is there a downside in stability or flatness? Is MDF really the better choice?Also, I have been checking out marquetry and I am getting my head around the methods here. I am very surprised about the thickness that I see people talking about... 1/42" wow that's thin. I was thinking my inlays would be closer to 1/8" or 1/4". Is that not possible or just much harder or something I don't know about? What happens with that really thin stuff when it comes to sanding it flush to the field? For sure I am not thinking about doing a pattern or inlay that is super fancy (more stylized). Supper fancy is just not my taste.So attached also are some pics of the monogram on my house. This is a transum I built for my dining room (table to correlate in some way). Can see the stair slats as well with the same theme. Grandfather clock face in the works right now. Other stuff as well. Then a pic of the butterfly it was all modeled after (a red bordered pixie).Thanks for all the feedback,Rob KressEdited 3/2/2009 6:22 pm ET by robkressEdited 3/2/2009 6:22 pm ET by robkress

   Edited 3/2/2009 6:22 pm ET by robkress

   
2. 
   robkress | Mar 03, 2009 02:24am | #12

   Fellas,Here are the pics. I guess you can't delete and re-add when you make a mistake. Good grief.Rob

   
3. 
   ring | Mar 03, 2009 08:40am | #14

   Rob,The torsion box is very stable and stiff. It cuts down weight while increasing stability. It is not a necessity for your table, assuming that you've got normal support underneath.The big problem with plywood is that it's not flat. If you glue together two sheets you will get some new combination of not flat. Plywood also typically has variations in thickness, where inner plies are missing or doubled. Your common garden variety ply doesn't make the best substrate for veneer.If you've got access to a 54" widebelt sander then you can repair a lot of problems in any substrate. But assuming that you've got hobbyist equipment, you're much better off using material that will give you a good base right "off the shelf". As far as veneer thickness goes - it depends a lot on your equipment and how you plan to prepare it. In my humble experience (I really mean it) I've found that over 3/16" thick it starts to behave like solid wood and not veneer. If you've got a good bandsaw, planer, and drum sander you can make lovely veneer 1/8" - 3/16" thick. If you're buying the veneer, most of what's on the market is 0.6mm thick (1/40th of an inch). Try to get double thickness (1.2 mm), which is available in certain species from serious supply houses.David Ring

   http://www.touchwood.co.il/?lang=e&id=1

4. 
   robkress | Mar 03, 2009 05:46pm | #16

   David,Thanks for the response. I totally understand. I get it that plywood is not perfect and indeed I was recognizing that I might have to choose a different (better) sheet good. Sounds like MDF is kind of a top choice. I can see myself using that.I do have a stable of nice equipment and should be able to make my own veneer. Sounds to me like you are recommending not thicker than 3/16". I can totally do the 1/8" to 3/16" mark. That will be easy.One last question if you don't mind. If I decide to make my "inlays" somewhat "fancy", what is the recommended fit tolerance of the puzzle pieces? I've seen people talking about marquetry saw blades that have a kerf of near .01 or .02 inches. So I guess there is near that amount of space between pieces. Is that tight or loose? Does the thickness of the "veneer" affect that "sizing"? I can understand the need to have some "space" between the pieces of the inlay, so I'm trying to get even a benchmark to know the relative scale of things. I'm sure there is a lot of art and science to this matter and one quick answer won't uncover all of it. That's ok. Again, just trying to get my head in the ball park.Rob Kress

5. 
   ring | Mar 03, 2009 06:07pm | #17

   Rob,On the question of tolerance for inlays - I'm gonna have to admit that I don't know. I've never done anything complex, just various bandings. They seemed to work out well when I could put them into their grooves with my fingers, no undue force required. How much tolerance is that? Dunno.Post some pics when you get going.David Ring

   http://www.touchwood.co.il/?lang=e&id=1

2. 
   Lataxe | Mar 02, 2009 04:49pm | #2

   Rob,

   I believe Mr Ring is spot on.  Here is a rule of thumb I use for stringing, banding and similar:

   No more than 12 inches of long-grain stringing/banding across the grain of whatever solid wood it's laid into.

   Any more risks the string or band getting broken if the solid wood substrate stretches or contracts significantly with moisture changes.  (Using a plywood, mdf or blockboard substrate, there is no problem). But you can bend the above rule in various circumstance:

   * If the mositure variation (seasonal or otherwise) is small where the piece will live, you can risk longer runs of stringing across solid wood grain as there won't be much, if any, wood movement and consequent differential expansion/contraction between stringing and substrate.

   * If you use very thin stringing (e.g.1/16th inch) it may stretch rather than break.  But if the substrate shrinks a lot, the stringing may still get popped out (i.e. it won't contract as easily as it stretches).

   * If the banding has very thin long-grain bands surrounding a wider cross-grain centre, then long runs of it across the grain of the substrate may simply result in the thin bands stretching and the cross-grain stuff in the middle developing lots of tiny breaks, which looks OK - traditional in fact.

   Lataxe

    

1. 
   robkress | Mar 02, 2009 06:14pm | #3

   Lataxe and RingWow, already getting great info.....Yes, I believe I am looking for more of a formal, refined look in this table. Not so formal and fancy to be Victorian or French Napolean. My house is indeed a modern interpretation of an arts and crafts home. And the house is monogrammed with butterflies. So naturally, I think the table should have the monogram. I'll post a pic when I get home of some of the butterfly stuff.So I guess my imaginings look like a very fine grained main surface (so as not to detract from the inlays) with some butterfly themes in the field. I also think that I want to edge it (not on the edge but in the top near the edge) with some squiggly type banding of some sort. Making that "banding" continuous along the edge is not critical (sounds like it needs to be broken up into segments along the way). This imagining leads me to believe that I might should be thinking about a laminated top rather than a solid slab top. Is the banding the hard part about the inlays that I have described? I have not yet decided on the butterfly sizes and how intricate they will be. Does the size of those make a big difference in what I do (I imagine so). So is 6" square big or small? What about 18"?Thanks for the feedbackRob Kress

1. 
   ring | Mar 02, 2009 06:57pm | #4

   OK, let's assume then that you're going to make a torsion box and then glue veneer over it. If this is your first attempt at making your own veneer, I'd suggest you start with a smaller project, and use commercially available veneer for this table. I'd try to get or make at least 1/16" thick, not the paper-thin stuff that's commonly available.Your butterfly inlays are really marquetry, and you should make some practice pieces before you start routing recesses into your painstakingly veneered tabletop. The stringing along the edges is really quite easy to do. To make life simple, make the stringing exactly the width of a straight router bit so that you can make the channel in one pass. The inlays, wherever they are, should be just barely proud of the veneered top so that light sanding will take them down to perfectly level. You can use Titebond to glue them in, and apply pressure with straight clamping cauls. I've made cauls from HPL covered sticks, or just use some wax paper to keep the glue squeeze-out from adhering to them.If I were making the table I'd use 3/4" MDF to make the torsion box. It's hard to love MDF but for this application it can't be beat.David Ring

   http://www.touchwood.co.il/?lang=e&id=1

1. 
   user-259615 | Mar 02, 2009 07:14pm | #5

   David
   Would you really use 3/4" MDF to make a torsion box for a table top? I wouldn't.
   A torsion box is stable because of the relative separation of the two skins, is it not. SO if the skins are 3/4" thick, and separated by, shall we say, merely and inch, that table top is going to be 2.5" thick, more like a bench than a refined table. And I'd want more than 1" of separationI'd make it all out of 1/4" MDF, with solid edging. The eggbox centre of the table can be 1/4" MDF too, strips 1 1/4" wide, making a top 1.25" thick, much more refined, I'd say. A support every few inches, and the halving joint can easily be cut with a router or dado (suitable jig, guarded) with all the strips ganged up to be cut in one go.The other advantage of this is the weight. Two full sheets of 3/4" MDF plus filling is going to be impossible to lift without doing yourself a mischief!Space is more valuable than the junk that occupies it.
   Woodworking DVDs and jigs from http://www.workshopessentials.com

1. 
   ring | Mar 02, 2009 10:59pm | #7

   Steve,I didn't really give much thought to the overall thickness of the top and how it relates to the design. You're probably right that 3/4" would lead to it being much more clunky than refined. But while your 1/4" MDF would make a wonderfully strong box, I would still prefer something more substantial to do the veneering and inlay on. So let's call it at an even 1/2".David Ring

   http://www.touchwood.co.il/?lang=e&id=1

2. 
   Lataxe | Mar 03, 2009 01:53am | #10

   David,

   Why not use blockboard, which is 1/2 to 1/3 the weight of mdf or ply?  Also, it comes with some wonderful veneers on it.  Also, it is all real wood with much less in the way of evil-glue inside (but still some) than mdf or ply.  It can be quite stiff, unlike mdf. Also, it is as stable as ply and therefore could be inlaid, strung, banded and so forth with no worry about wood movement.

   Lataxe

3. 
   ring | Mar 03, 2009 08:21am | #13

   You're quite right about the blockboard. The reason I don't use it is simply that it's not easily available. In the past when I did have occasion to use blockboard I found one serious drawback. Cutting along the length of the core pieces can reveal gaps at the edges, which will not take kindly to edgebanding of any kind. Maybe the board I used was of inferior quality, but if gaps like those appear even occasionally it would make the material uneconomical to work with.Blockboard has some serious advantages as you mention. And it leads me to thinking about some other "solid" sheets we use. Maybe I'll start a new post about innovative sheet goods...David Ring

   http://www.touchwood.co.il/?lang=e&id=1

3. 
   ASK | Mar 03, 2009 05:38pm | #15

   Rob,

   I used a single slab of bubinga (originally 53" X 96") for the dining room table. Table without leaves is 48" X 78". I won't tell you what is cost for the wood.

   http://finewoodworking.taunton.com/item/257/dining-room-table

   ASK

4. 
   Dave45 | Mar 03, 2009 06:20pm | #18

   I would agree with Ring about first deciding on the "character" you want in your new table.

   I'm just finishing this table top as we speak, and it's definitely "rustic". It's made from recycled redwood deck boards (2" x 6") and is 25" x 48". The boards were planed from 1.5" to ~1.25" thick and ripped to 5" wide before being glued up. The inlay is maple pieces ~3/16" thick.

   A couple of suggestions for your project:

   1. Practice your inlay work on scrap before you commit to doing it for real. Getting crisp lines between your inlay and "field" can be tricky - especially where your inlay runs across the grain of the "field". These inlays took me most of one day and involved lots of careful work with a razor knife and sharp chisels.

   2. Make sure that your inlay wood is approximately as hard as the field wood. My inlays were a bear to flatten since the maple is so much harder than the redwood.

   
1. 
   robkress | Mar 03, 2009 11:26pm | #19

   Thanks for the advice fellas,I think I'm going to forge head first into this. Damn the torpedoes!!!I will probably endeavor at thick veneers (1/8" or so) in a fancy wood field built on top of glued together MDF or something. I think I might also try and have my inlays machine cut. I have a guy who did some other work for me and who might be able to cut my shapes. But then again, I may do it myself on a scroll saw. To be determined.Dave, nice looking table. I like the contrast of color as well as the contrast of grain. I think that the grain contrast is as important to an effective inlay as the color. My plan is very similar with different shapes. Will head the warning about wood density. I can imagine it was hard to get the inlays flat by sanding. I can imagine you even considered scraping and planing but who wants to risk that when the table is so close to done. :)Again, thanks for the help guys. Will certainly post pics when I'm done. This is definitely the most ambitious project to date. We'll see how it turns out.Rob Kress