The quality of my cuts has been deteriorating over the last year or so. When I started with a Systematic 80 tooth blade and Biesmeyer fence on my Delta Contractors saw, I could produce near glue joint cuts. Now, even after resharpening, etc. I am getting pretty deep saw marks in my rip cuts.
I bought a T-S Aligner Jr. to save time in re-calibrating everything. Sure enough, my fence was off. Also found that I had about .010 error in my blade measurements. The error seems to be not from the blade but from the trunnion alignment.
I recall a video from kelly Mehler that stated you have to loosen all four bolts on the trunnion and then give it a whack. I am concerned however, that if I do that I will never be able to align it. Further, I recall someone / somewhere suggesting that you really need to remove the saw from the case and use a clamp.
I am really lost. Any suggestions?
Replies
I recently bought a video from Woodcraft (1-800-2251153) called "Align-it Video" product # 124041 for $ 13.99 . I thought it was great. I haven't actually done the work yet but it did teach me how to put on something called PAL which goes on the trunnion and allows for micro type adjustments. I had bought it almost a year ago and never could figure out where it went.
I have the Kelly Mehler video as well (pictures help me a lot) and I don't remember if it was him or the guy from Align-it but they don't believe in whacking anything although they do refer to that as the way it used to be done.
One or both left the bolts loose when putting together the base frame and then let gravity and the weight of the table level it. It is supposed to compensate for an uneven floor. That's where I plan to start when I get around to really setting up the saw which happens to be a Delta Contractors as well.
Kelly Mehler has a web site and I found him extremely helpful and friendly when I met him at an exhibition here in NJ. If you think you might use it, let me know and I'll be happy to send it along.
Hope this helps.
Could you clarify what you mean by "remove the saw from the case?"
I'd try loosening (barely) only the rear trunion bolts, rather than all four. Use the 2x4 and hammer-tapping approach to nudge things into alignment. I've learned from tedious experience not to get too aggressive with the trunion assembly in a contractor's saw, as it can be extremely difficult to put right once it's out of whack. Loosening the front bolts unnecessarily increases greatly your chances of having that happen.
If you are able to get it aligned with just loosening the rear bolts, then it might be a good idea to just check the front bolts and make sure they are nice and tight too.
BTW, on the Jet saw you can clamp the trunion to it's "way" without removing anything from the case.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 1/30/2003 2:01:58 AM ET by forestgirl
I know what you mean about "whacking" it and think you'll be able to move it exactly .0015"! I mean how presice can a hammer blow be. I have a freind due back in town who has some sort of alignment jig tht he swears by. I concert with an Incra fence ( which does not interest me) he gets repeatable cuts to .001" consistantly. I'll be tempted to try it but I've been using a Starrett dial indicator so I'm pretty confident in my readings.
If your saw used to cut better I wouldn't suspect the trunnion being out of line unless it's suffered some impact. But you say that's so according to the tool your measuring with. I for one would make triple sure that loosing the trunnion is nessasary. Only because I haven't done so and the thought of it scares me<G>
While on the subject, the prevailing logical thought is to line up everything to the miter slot. I actually don't trust my miter gauge and any jigs I've made I check the resulting cut with a precision square and adjust the jig. In theory as long as my blade and fence are parallel who cares how they line up with a miter slot that houses imprecise tools. It just seems to me if the trunions are misaligned it would be easier to leave it be, align the fence and blade and compensate with any miter tools. Obviously degree of error would come into play, but for .010" I don't know..............
HTH or at least didn't confuse any further.
N
>> ... how precise can a hammer blow be?
I routine align the milling attachment on my lathe to within .001" by whacking on it, and have watched machinists align milling machine vises the same way. I often get it right with 4 or 5 hammer blows, and I don't remember it ever taking 10. Is that precise enough?
I recently bought the PALS system from Woodcraft and used it to align my Delta contractors saw. Took about 10 minutes to replace the rear trunnion bolts with the PALS studs and another 5 minutes, tops, to align the saw to ~ +/- 0.001. PALS costs $22 and is one of the best investments I ever made. No muss, no fuss, no bother--and best of all no banging on the trunnion with a hammer and block of wood.
Did you get that precision the first time?
N
Like I said, I don't remember it ever taking 10 whacks.
One advantage that I had, and the machinists aligning their milling vices had, is that it was trivially easy to set up a dial indicator in the machine spindle and crank the table back and forth with the indicator tip riding on the smooth face of the vise jaw. Measuring the misalignment in a table saw is probably not that easy.
Another advantage I had was that I was able to clamp a piece of pipe in the vise with 14" sticking out the side, and hit the end of the pipe instead of the body of the milling attachment. That gave my whacks a lot of leverage, and I admit it's easier to calibrate light hammer blows than heavy hammer blows.
Folks: I am not familiar with the PALS system. Is there a web-site, etc. where I might learn more?
Thanks for the tip on Mehler's web-site. Also sat through a few of his sessions, including tuning your table saw, at The Woodworker's Show in Chicago. It was great to learn from him and Marc Adams.
Bob
Here ya go, Bob,
http://www3.woodcraft.com/Marking&Measuring/woodworking/895.htmforestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Website for the outfit that makes the PALS.
http://in-lineindustries.1hwy.com/index.htm
Has anyone in here ever checked the run out on the tip of the arbor? Is it normal to get 0.015" there? That seems really excessive to me. I'm trying to imagine what may cause that. The only thing I can imagine is that the shaft is bent.
Comments?
jdg
Edited 2/1/2003 11:36:59 AM ET by jdg
I agree. It might have been machined out of round, or eccentric, but bent is the most likely explanation.
H - when I first discovered that my used Jet contractor's saw was out of alignment, I assumed as you say that as long as I lined the fence up parallel to the blade and used an adjust miter system it wouldn't matter. Not!!
That misalignment completely eliminates the possibility of working on both sides of the blade, unless a duplicate set of "adjusted" jigs is made. In addition, any adjustment of the fence to the blade for compensation is useless and, worse yet, dangerous when ripping bevels in stock -- the tilting of the blade magnifies the non-parallelism and gets things so weird I can't even describe it.
My saw was so completely out of whack (pardon the pun) from the previous owner having dropped it probably, that there was no getting it fixed by a mere mortal. I loaded it up and took it to a Jet service tech, and he got it perfect. Best $60 I ever spent.
Since that experience, I've always thought it was pretty hysterical that we're supposed to get a blade to within .001" or whatever with a hammer and a 2x4, but fact is it works! Too funny. The PALS system is great though, and makes the whole process quite easy from what I've heard and seen. forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Take a look at #6 from DP -- the PALS are a great idea. easy to install, and will reduce your nightmares about this process in the future -- frees you up to dream about your next project, LOL!
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I owned that saw for 10 years and did this drill a couple dozen times. I hate it.
Slack the rear motor by removing the belt. You should also remove the motor from the plate and set it aside somewhere. You do not have to disconnect it, just take the weight off the plate. Remove the plate and the saw blade, too. I made a dedicated flat piece of aluminum to be installed instead of the blade.
Using an air compressor, blow off all the dust you can from underneath the saw. Really spend about 10-15 minutes doing this. Follow up with a stiff brush, and blow it out again. Repeat until it is very clean. Sweep up the mess.
You'll need a half inch socket and a 6" extention for the front bolts. Loosen the four trunion bolts sligtly, so the trunion can move when pushed very firmly. Don't loosen it much.
Now measure the distance between the miter slots and the fence front and back. Get them equal and re-tighten the bolts. Some guys like to loosen the back of the fence so the gap is slightly bigger (about a 32nd or 64th) at the rear of the blade, so the wood does not bind. Re-tighten the trunion bolts and re-assemble the saw.,
It is that simple.
I have also got the trunions even, then clamped a long straight 2x4 between the plate and fence to hold the trunion in place whilst I tighten the trunion bolts.
The PALS system is neat, but is a bear to install. It is a set of bolts that cost $2 to make, $20 to sell, and is worth $200. They replace the trunion bolts. One of the bolts has a cam like deal on it and an allen wrench head, too to that when the allen wrench is placed and turned, the trunion moves in and out. Nice trick huh?
The directions to the PALS system s u c k really bad. You may have to tap new holes for it to work on your saw. The PALS system is sold by many woodworking catalogs, but I forget which.
After over 15 years with the same Delta Contractors Saw, I just wore the d a m n thing out (about 20 hours a week), and was spending an hour a month adjusting the d a m n trunions, so I switched out to a Unisaw. Good Luck.
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1927
In my experiences I'd have to disagree with you mister Yeltsin about removing the motor. I had everything aligned to within .001" on my cont. saw then when I hung the motor back on the weight of it pulling on the belt which in turn pulled on the arbor moved everything out of alignment to about .013"
I re-aligned everything again with the motor still on (yes, it was hard to work around) and haven't had to re-align since. That was 7 months ago.
The "whack" method worked fine for me...but I was a machinist for 8 years so I seem to have that "feel" necessary to precisely whack it :)
Mfg King:
I read your comment: "so I seem to have that "feel" necessary to precisely whack it" and thought to mention that you might not want to brag about that one... Couldn't resist. It made me laugh though.
Good thought regarding the motor.
Boris: Thanks for your comment. Was surprised to read that the threads would be different. Is that the major difficulty you encountered with the PALS system? Hopefully they made a change. Woodcraft specifically sells a version for the Delta Contractors Saw so hopefully they have made a change since you purchased yours.
Otherwise, did you / do you like the system? Does it do a good job of keeping the trunion locked? One of my concerns was that the addition of an aftermarket item would help with adjustment, but would be more prone to going out of adjustment.
Yes, it often makes me laugh too.
Almost forgot my manners: Forestgirl: thanks for the URL that was helpful.
We have a woodcraft just 20 minutes away here in Chicago and so I will purchase the PALS this weekend. If I have time to install and align, I will start this weekend.
Boris: I covet the Unisaw, but need a jointer first. Am thinking of the 8" DJ-20 as it is still made in the US. Not that I have anything against Asia... was there earlier this week.
Thank you everyone. I will report on my experiences, if anyone is interested.
Bob
I liked the PALS system. Adjusting the Trunions is simply a case of getting underneath the saw and turning the Allen wrench a tad. It makes "fine tuning" the Trunions possible, which is tough otherwise, especially with that heavy motor tugging on the trunion. (That is why I remove the motor from the plate). After you install the PALS system, it is just one twist with a wrench.
Installation I must say is a bear, and took the better part of a week, working evenings. Having a spotlessly clean table saw, really good lighting and some good high intensity halogen portable lighting, and quality tools will go a long way to help you. I think I used old blankets and pillows, 'cause I was on my back a lot trying to figure it out. Hopefully the instructions are better now.
I am surprised that your relatively new table saw would even need adjustment. Mine lasted five years before it needed adjustment, and it was only towards the end that I was doing it once a month. Then I bought the PALS system.
Congratulations on your saw, I loved mine, and had it all tricked out with router tables, moveable based, outfeed tables, and a Beismeyr fence. It was a solid workhorse a good friend for over a decade. I just wore mine out bouncing around from jobsite to jobsite. I did about 20 roofs and another 100 remodles with it, and having idiots forcefeed plywood through it musta loosened the Trunions quite a bit.
I have a Unisaw for the shop and a Bosch for the field work.
Regards,
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1927
Boris: Actually, my saw is about 6 years old and I don't work with it everyday. I am thinking that it may have gotten "nicked" when we moved a few years back and then got progressively worse. I already have a buyer for when I buy the Unisaw, but am hoping I can tune the saw back to satisfaction and delay that purchase for a year or so. Tell me, though, is the step up to the Unisaw as terrific as my imagination tells me it will be?
Didn't realize that was WC Fields. Had heard a similar version of Winston Churchill sitting in the bathtub when Lady Elaine entered and pronounced him drunk, to which he supposedly responded "Lady Elaine, you are correct. I am drunk and you are ugly. But tomorrow I will be sober..."
Have a great weekend.
Six years? Yeah, I pegged that. Your saw got knocked around and that is the reason it is out of whack. It is still a good saw.
Yes the Unisaw is nice. Its advantage is only in the thickness of wood that can be sawn and the whole Trunion deal. Trunions sound like a soft furry woodland creature don't they? Hopefully, you won't be adjusting them more than once a year. I'd try it without the PALS system first, and see how well you do, and how long it lasts. The PALS system is a bear to install. If you find that you can't adjust them very easily and you are doing it often, then PALS is for you. But for the one shot Trunion adjustment, it isn't worth it. Give it a try, and if you have any problems, post again. I know that saw like the back of my hand.
Everything I do on the Unisaw can be done on the Contractors saw. You just need to take your time. Actually the contractors saw is safer. I rarely got kickback because the blade and motor would stall before it would kickback. If it did kickback, you could actually use a push stick and work the piece back into line. I wouldn't dare try that on a Unisaw. It would push the pushstick into and through my hand.
I justified the over $3,000 expense of a Unisaw(with gadgets) because I use the rascal at least 10 hours a week, and I wore a contractors saw out. My power tool supplier was adamant that I deserved one and would actually use it.
Regards,
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1927
Having read the above, I decided to see if alignment was causing the saw marks that I've been getting.
We're talking 4 yr old Delta Contractors' Saw. I was getting real smooth cuts until I took my blades to the sharpening service, then I started noticing more obvious saw marks.
Broke out the ole dial indicator and started checking. So for starters, I checked my blades for flatness. Of the four blades that I have, none are flat. There's a place in the rotation of each of them that's not flat. Say about 0.03 - 0.05" out of flat. Having looked at that, I decided to check the tip of the abour. The tip of the abour is out by about 0.015".
Then I went out for dinner and wine.
Comments?
I don't know just exactly how I'm going to continue to check my blade alignment with the slots in the table if my blades are out of flat. In my opinion, non of these blades had been mistreated or severely bumped.
Suggestions?
jdg
Edited 1/31/2003 11:19:15 PM ET by jdg
Isn't that "out of flat" thing the reason we're supposed to use the same tooth on the blade when we measure from the back and the front of the blade to the miter gauge slot?
Comment: The dinner and wine sound like a great idea. Maybe I'll try it tomorrow night!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Hi,
I was going round and round about this myself last month. Seems my FWW2 was about .004" out of flat-within specs. And my arbor flange was out about .0025" out. Once again within specs. My arbor itself less than .001". So with any possible errors in my reading I may have a TS that's perfectly within specs showing .007-.010" runout.
I was finally able to line up the error of the blade opposite the error of the flange and shim with a piece of scotch tape and now have less than .002" runout. I have done this once before and it was basically a permanent fix. It lasted the length of time I had the saw.
HTH
N
Made it to Woodcraft to buy the PALS system. They also had a video I watched on how to properly install. If the system works as easy as it looks and the adjustments are durable, then this will have been a very worthwhile project.
JDG: Are you measuring the tip of the arbor or the tip of the arbor flange? If the former, wouldn't it be worthwhile to measure the base since that is where the blade sits? Either way, .015 is way too much on just about anything. I would be feeling kind of bad if there was .005 off on anything .
Robbie
Robbie,
I was measuring the tip of the arbor. I measured the eccentricity of the arbor flange - it wasn't even close to round but I couldn't see the significance of that so I didn't worry about it. I didn't check the face of the arbor flange, nor the arbor where the blade sits. I'll have to do that. Anyway, I put it all back together and it's cuts are OK.
What I'd really like to have is a flat blade. I have 3 Freuds - 10" 60 tooth Rip / Crosscut. None are flat. I find this baffling. I was looking at the saw blade comparision article in FWW April 2002. I believe Home Depot carries the US Saw - Oldham line which rated pretty high for a reasonable price. I think I'll pick one of those up.
Who likes what blades? What tooth configuration? Thin kerf? For what uses?
jdg
Was disappointed in a phone conversation yesterday with Delta. They admit that the arbor flange should have no more than .001 runout. Unfortunately, I learned that the contractor's saw is out of warranty (in addition to being out of alignment) and suggest the purchase of a new arbor assembly at $80 to cure the run out problem.
If the CS arbor is like a Unisaw arbor, the flang is pressed on then ground flat. Check with a machine shop that can chuck and grind the arbor flang. I have this done with all the used Unisaws I purchase and rebuild. Also check the flatnes of the arbor washer by placing 220x silcon carbide sandpaper on the saw top and rub the washer flang on it in a figure 8 pattern. The shinny spots are high. Keep rubbing untill a shinny ring is all the way around.
Dave Koury
DJK:
Thank you for the advice. Can you suggest how I might go about: 1) finding a machine shop (I must admit I have never been to one; 2) finding one that is experienced in grinding an arbor flange; and 3) what should it cost to do this?? I live in the suburbs north of Chicago.
I will try the other trick to fine tune arbor washer.
Thanks again,
Robbie
Edited 2/6/2003 9:37:59 PM ET by Robbie
Two Updates:
1) Delta is sending to me a new arbor / flange to replace the old one which has the .004" runout problem. I have no clue as to how to remove the old one and replace it with a new one. Any ideas??
2) Replacing the trunion bolts with PALS was very easy. The longest time was with adjusting and tightening and the latter tended to move the trunnion out of position again. Was worth it, though, as I improved alignment by almost .004". Looks like I will have to do it again once I replace the arbor.
I would have no idea how that flange comes off. Your manual might have some exploded views of it. I would think that it is a keyed joint, but looking at your part could give you some clues. Delta tech support I'm sure would help.
Good Luck, and I'm glad the PALS system worked for you.
Regards,
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1927
Robbie
I had a Delta contractor saw and had a problem with the blade alignment. Delta worked with me and ended up buying it back after more than 2 years of problems with it. Talk to them about your problems we can give you advice but they have the authority to do something about it.
Good Luck and God Bless
les
Robbie,
I think the place to start is to check your top for flatness.
There's a design flaw in these saws and their clones. These saws develop a sag in the table just behind the table insert. This area is minimally supported yet supports the motor, the back half of the trunion and much of the stress of heavy cutting. With a sag in the top you can't align blade for square on both sides of the table.
I'll bet if you lay a straight edge across the back of the top you'll find significant sag. The only thing I can think of that might cure this problem is an after market fence with a heavy back rail and you'll have to force some iron around to remove the sag. Over the years I've worked with a number of these saws and they all had the problem including the one I got rid of in 1982. I was never successful in fixing any of them but aftermarket fences weren't around then.
OK. So last night I installed the PALS system. Pretty slick. It was a very smooth and easy installation. The adjustment took some time, however as you have to insert a small hex key in the PALS bolts and it was difficult / tedious to do this. At the end of the day, I was able to adjust the trunnion to create blade parallelism of .001". So I am pleased with that. My concern remains -- how durable will this adjustment be with the passing of time and hours on the saw.
I also used the T-S aligner to find that I have about .004" in arbor flange runout. Am not real excited about that. Is there anything that can be done for this?
There is less than .002" arbor screw variability, which should be within Delta spec.
So, all in toll, I may have improved a bit, but still have about .009" in blade variability among all of the factors. That is based on the difference between the high and the low reading on the blade -- some arbor related, probably a little blade warpage, etc.
Is this level of variability good or bad compared to what most of you see?
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