Cutting a Drawer Front from an Apron
One of my next projects involves an inset drawer in a curved apron. I plan to laminate the apron and would like to cut the drawer front out of the apron afterwards. The drawer is at the very top edge of the apron, so only three cuts are necessary (resulting in a U-shape. I am concerned with the size of the kerf and quality of cut. Any suggestions as to how this is best done?
Chris @ www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
(soon to be www.flairwoodworks.com)
– Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. – Albert Schweitzer
Replies
I have done this on a Pembroke table. The key to making it work was a cock bead attached to the table apron. This gives enough room to drill and access hole for a fret saw to cut the opening, and also room to clean up the inside edge of the opening. Putting the cock bead on the apron allows covering minor saw marks and the like. The drawer itself is much easier to clean up since it can likely be planed. With care, the cock bead is fitted, then the drawer front is trimmed to fit the opening.
With the U-shape opening, you can make the apron a bit too wide, cut the opening and "narrow" the kerf by trimming the rest of the apron.
Question: How does this affect the structure of the apron? I'd be concerned that the shape would reduce the ability of the apron to keep the legs secure.
Steve,Thanks for the suggestions. The trickiest cut will definitely be the horizontal cut - it will have to be done with either a fret saw as you suggest or a plunge cut (think veneer or flooring saw, not that I'd use either). The design has very clean lines and no moldings. If possible, I would like to avoid moldings. But perhaps I could add an accent of some sort around the drawer. Good idea on "narrowing" the kerf by making the apron extra wide.The design calls for 1" of material 1" thick below the drawer. There is 2-1/4" between the edges of the drawer and the legs, which are secured with sliding dovetails. I plan to attach the apron to the top with either dowels or pocket screws. In short, I believe there will be enough strength in the apron.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com(soon to be http://www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
I'm having second thoughts about the shifting down the drawer front to narrow the kerf. That would misalign the wood grain between the apron and the drawer front.
Hi Chris
I am not sure if this helps. I made an insert drawer in this tool box (part of an entry in the 2008 Wood Central Tool Competition) ...
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I didn't want to disturb the grain, so the usual recommendation of cutting and re-gluing the sections did not work for me.
I decided to cut out the drawer with a plunge cut using a veneer saw.
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I knifed the lines and ran the blade against a fence.
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Regards from Perth
Derek
Derek,Good idea. The veneer saw has a small enough kerf to be acceptable for the gap around the drawer. It also cuts nice straight lines. But can it handle 1" material?Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com(soon to be http://www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Use the offcut from the curve to make a piece of veneer for the front.
Then make a drawer that fits and add the veneer to it.
It should blend in rather well, however the grain will be off slightly but not enough to notice.
Or you could just veneer the entire front rail.
F.
Floss,I don't quite follow you here. Where does the off cut come from?Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com(soon to be http://www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
I was thinking more of laminating in the solid as was done for period pieces like serpentine card tables and the like.I believe you are thinking of using thin laminae to glue together in a form?Therefore, my suggestion will not work.Anyway here is a small sketch of the idea I was alluding to.F.PS. Veneer still works.
I see what you are suggesting. I am planning to do a bent lamination. You suggestion sparked another idea though. I will be resawing 1" boards for the laminations. If I make an extra ply cut from the same board as the outer face, I will be in business.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com(soon to be http://www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Sounds like a plan.Good luck.F.
Chris,
I've done this on a flat apron where I ripped the top and bottom rail off of the apron, then made my 2 cross cuts to get my drawer front, then glued everything back together.
Why couldn't you do this with the curved apron? You would need some sort of jig to hold the curved apron, but you only need one horizontal rip cut (for the bottom of the apron) and then your two cross cuts. When you relieve your drawer front from the curved piece, simply glue your 2 pieces back onto the bottom rail of the apron. This will yeild a seamless drawer front that will look like you cut it out with a laser.
While it may not be the easiest method, it will look the best when you're finished.
Best of luck and let's see your drawer front/apron when you finish.
Lee
Chris,
If the curve allows it, I use a laminate trimmer with a 1/8" bit and jig to cut out the drawer face then use beading to add interest and delineate the drawer.
It is possible to do the same with a 1/16" bit, without beading, but takes a lot longer because of taking minute cuts each time around.
Earl
A bit complicated, but one way to get there would be to: glue up the lamination for the apron except for the last ply, i.e., the outer veneer; then cut out the opening for the drawer; next, glue the outer veneer to the apron. Now, use an exacto knife or razor to cut the veneer from the inside of the drawer opening. Finally, construct a drawer front from other material to match the curve of the apron and glue the veneer you cut from the apron to the front. If you're careful, you could build a drawer that is all but invisible.
I would like to see the result of your efforts - especially if you try the way I've suggested.
Knot yourself out!
Verne
If I do attempt to cut the drawer front out of the apron, I will use your method. Essentially, you are reducing the thickness of material which needs to be cut out. By the way, the outer ply will be at least 1/8", preferably more if I can get away with it.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com(soon to be http://www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Why such a thick outer lam? When you start getting thicker, you start getting more problems with wood movement and the like, and more problems balancing the inner and outer lams. You can certainly get a couple of centuries of wear and refinishing from veneer that's a strong 1/16th, or even a weak 1/16th. That's way more than the 1/48th or such like in plywood.
Steve,There are two reasons why I have planned to use thicker plies. First, when resawing thicker veneers, there is less waste. That's a minor issue however. Second, I am hesitant to plane stock much thinner than 1/8" in my DW735. Is this a unfounded concern?Also, I thought that the rule of thumb was to use the thickest stock possible that will conform to the curve. Am I wrong here?Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com(soon to be http://www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Chris,
WRT the thickness of the veneer, I would recommend buying the stuff for the face rather than cutting it. I've cut veneers for some applications, but for what you're trying to accomplish, I think it would be much easier to use a factory cut veneer that's a whole lot thinner than you can accomplish. If the wood you're using is important to you and you just have to use it, I think you can still use the approach I suggested earlier, but it may be a challenge.
As far as the issue of brick laid drawers and glue, I'd guess there are a number of reasons that period work doesn't have laminations. The first is that hot glue doesn't allow enough open time. Second - and I'd say this is probably the reason you'll see brick laid serpentine drawer fronts and similar work well after the advent of liquid glues - is that a brick laid component better lends itself to dovetail joints and is more attractive in the finished product.
Finally, I wouldn't run anything less than 1/8th through a planer - I'd expect chips out the other side. When I've cut thin stuff for a face veneer, I usually plane a clean face, resaw, plane, resaw, etc, etc. You end up with pieces that have one flat, clean face to glue down and a rough face to clean up with a plane or a scraper. If you're careful with the resaw, the rough face doesn't need too much cleaning-up and you can actually cut some pretty thin stuff.
Steady as she goes,
Verne
Verne,Can you decipher WTR for me?I did a quick search of the internet and didn't find much in the way of Pacific yew veneer. Some veneer described as being suitable for rustic work, other burled. I think that 1/8" shop-sawn veneer will be just fine.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com(soon to be http://www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Sorry. That was "WRT", shorthand of "With Regard To." Too many years in the military and other government service leads to that sort of thing.
Verne
Chris - Just a thought here based on the kind of stuff I do. It may be a lot easier to do this with a "brick-laid" lamination for the apron and drawer front. There's no such thing as a bent lamination in period furniture (at least as far as I'm aware), so all of my curved fronts are brick-laid, usually from white pine or poplae.
The advantage to doing this in your case is that you can make a template for the front curve, and cut your "bricks" based on the template. Instead of sawing out the drawer front, you just make it as a separate piece. Then, the only thing you have to worry about is getting a thin cut on the veneer for the apron and the drawer front, which can easily be done with a razor blade. And should you choose to do it this way, you could shim the brick-laid backing for the drawer front between its edges and the apron to get the correct clearance for the drawer, back it with a shaped caul, veneer the whole thing in a vacuum press, clamped caul set-up or by hammer veneering (whichever you prefer), then simply slip the razor blade into the gap between the drawer and apron to free up the drawer front. Doing it this way could get you down to about 1/64" between the drawer and the apron if you choose to make it that narrow.
However, one comment about this is that cock-beading wasn't generally done because of a wide kerf left by a turning saw, back-saw or the like, it was done because veneer on the edges of a drawer is really fragile. One slightly ham-fisted closing of the drawer and the edge will likely chip out.
David,I am familiar with the bricklaying technique. Do you think that the reason this method was used instead of bent lamination (which I plan to do) has something to do with the technology of glues? Epoxies and polyurethane glues are two of the more common glues used when a rigid glue line is important and certainly were not available to period furniture makers of the time. But doesn't hide glue have a rigid glue line? I realize that hot hide glue has a very short open time, but liquid hide is different. Is liquid hide a recent advent?If the veneer is bonded well to the substrate, shouldn't chipping be a non-issue?Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com(soon to be http://www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
"Do you think that the reason this method was used instead of bent lamination (which I plan to do) has something to do with the technology of glues?"
No - I think it has more to do with the technology of saws. Skilled craftsmen of the day could cut pretty thin slices of wood that would suit a layered bent lamination technique, but it's a boatload of work, and the laminations then have to be leveled to a consistent thickness (which means hand-planing in the day). It's a lot easier to saw out "bricks" for a brick-laid front with a turning saw from a planed and 4-squared board than it is to saw thin plys for the period equivalent of plywood.
Hide glue doesn't have as short an open time as a lot of people think. It's true that it gels relatively rapidly, but the gel takes a good couple of hours to set really hard. There would be plenty of time to apply the glue to a few plys and then clamp it in a form with cauls, and the plys can be moved around until they're clamped and the excess hot hide glue is squeezed out (at which point parts are immobile due to surface tension - you have to peel them apart at that point if you make a mistake).
The techniques of extending the open time of hot hide glue were known at the time - adding table salt is one method, though I don't think craftsmen of the day had liquid hide glue available to them for the reasons that bacterial growth and the means of avoiding spoilage weren't well known. There'd also just be no reason to do it, as the dry form is stable indefinitely, and shipping wasn't exactly quick in the day, even across town. The craft shops would've had a fire going continuously in the colder months andyway, and had candles and other things that make heating glue easy.
Regarding veneer chipping around drawer fronts - it'll happen regardless of whether the veneer is glued down completely to the substrate. In period methods of drawer runners, there's a bit of intentional slop in the fit (so they don't bind), and that slop allows contact of the edge with the case as the drawer's closed, which will split the veneer off of the edges. Some of that could be avoided in a modern installation where metal drawer slides are used to percisely align the drawer and prevent contact, but it'll still happen from hand contact, items being put into and taken out of the drawer, etc...
I agree about the general use of cock beading to protect veneer.
The example I spoke about came from a solid wood table--actually a Townsend pembroke table, with beaded and reeded legs. The cock bead in this case was on the apron, and the drawer was cut from the board and inset into the opening.
Would you mind providing your thoughts on the methods you mentioned for veneering a curved brick laid apron? I am about to make my first attempt at doing exactly that and would be interested in tips and suggestions. I don't have a vacuum press and am leaning towards multiple curved cauls. I have some experience with hide glue and would eventually like to try hammer veneering but my shop tends to be on the cool side this time of year (~65 deg) and that makes working with hide glue, for me at least, difficult.Thanks to all as I have found this thread quite interesting.
Chris
Leave the thing in your house one day and hammer veneer it in the kitchen the next.
... or just warm up the groundwork, spread on the glue, flop the veneer over the top, lay on a sheet of plastic and dump some warmed-- and filled, sandbags on top of that. The veneer hammer might be easier though, ha, ha. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
Chris - A few comments on doing this. First, the ground must of necessity be smooth and regular - by that I mean you need to shape the glued-up "brick-laid" foundation with spokeshaves, planes, or whatever you choose. Naturally, irregularities will easily telegraph through the thin veneer and look ugly, as well as making it difficult to apply.
If you want to use hide glue, a good investment is a heat gun from the local Big Box store. They're sold in the paint section as a way to remove housepaint. Considerably more effective in heating the foundation and cauls up than a blow dryer to give you a bit more open time.
My personal choice in doing this is by hammer veneering because it's the easiest. No slipping and mis-alignment like you can get with a vacuum bag or cauls. If you're going to use cauls, you must of course have a near exact match to the curved shape you intend to veneer. This matters a lot more with modern, micro-thin veneers than it does with shop-sawn 1/16 - 1/8" veneers (as would be typically found on an antique).
With hammer veneering, you need a way to get a large amount of hot hide glue onto the substrate and then on top of the veneer quickly - a 2" paintbrush is my method, but I've seen people use rollers as well.
As mentioned, one of the common mistakes beginners make with hide glue and hammer veneering is not realizing that the glue goes on both sides - both the substrate and the top of the veneer. The glue on top prevents differential expansion and curling of the veneer, and also lubricates the passage of the hammer (which is used in a squeegee-like manner).
If you want to do this with cauls, I'd suggest waxing the underside of the cauls with beeswax to prevent gluing the cauls to the veneer, heat both substrate and cauls with a heat gun until they're warm to the tough, spray-mist both sides of the veneer with distilled water (again, to prevent differential expansion and cupping), apply the hide glue to the substrate, brush it out evenly, apply the veneer from one end to the other, squeezing out air bubbles as you go, then top it with the cauls and clamp it (gently - you're not after huge clamping force here). All of this needs to be done within about 2 minutes or so, which is not as hard as it sounds if you've got everything ready.
Thanks, that is all extremely helpful. A couple more questions:1) Have you ever pre-formed or steam bent the veneer prior to applying it? I wanted to use shop sawn veneer (just ordered a band saw) but I am not sure I can get it thin enough to wrap around a ~10 in. diameter circular apron. Certainly the ultra thin commercial stuff would bend that tight but I was also thinking of adding some shop made banding to the bottom edge that I will have to slice myself.2) I will warm the apron and the veneer prior to starting (I was thinking of using an electric blanket but maybe a heat gun is easier) but how warm do you keep the shop? Mine is in the basement so I can just turn up the heat but I have read that 75-80 is optimal for working with hide glue. Does that seem right?Thanks again.
Chris
Chris - a 10" diameter apron is really tight - do you mean a 10" radius? You're right that you may have difficulty with shop-made veneer on that tight a radius, depending on the species. I've never found it necessary to steam-bend a piece of veneer, shop-sawn or otherwise, but I've also never veneered anything on a 5" radius, either. In my experience, mahogany works fine as long as it's 1/16" thick or thinner, and it's sprayed with water (both sides) prior to hammer veneering it. I've had maple crack, however, and cherry and walnut seem to be in the middle of mahogany and maple as far as resistance to bends. Naturally, your mileage may vary. ;-)
I don't sweat the shop temperature when using hide glue, though it's always above 60 degrees when I'm working. Hide glue gels below about 100 degrees farenheit, so the shop temperature's just going to have an influence on how fast your surfaces cool down after heating them. Since I use a heat gun, whose air temp is about 140 degrees, my surfaces get hot enough that they stay warm for at least the 5 minutes I may take to get the glue spread, the veneer down and the hammer pushed across it two or three times to get the air bubbles out. By the way - if you've not used hide glue before, a double boiler is necessary (an electric glue pot is much better), but you cannot allow the water in the bottom of the double boiler to actually boil. The boiling temp of water at normal atmospheric pressure is 212 degrees farenheit, and that temp will quickly destroy the adhesive qualities of hide glue. In general, it needs to remain below 150 degrees to maintain its glue qualities.
Whether an electric blanket suits you better than a heat gun may depend on how you work. I'd personally find the electric blanket very frustrating because of its slowness, but I suppose some others may find wrapping the pieces in it and doing something else for 15 minutes an advantage.
Edited 1/7/2009 10:32 am ET by dkellernc
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