Take it easy on me now fellas I’m just learning about sharpening saws and need some advise before I do something to ruin my crosscut DT saw.
Is it advisable to try to reshape the teeth on a 19 TPI crosscut saw to a rip tooth pattern?
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>Is it advisable to try to reshape the teeth on a 19 TPI crosscut saw to a rip tooth pattern? <
If you like the saw so much that you will use no other saw then do it. If you can. 19 TPI is very fine and not a good size to start practicing on. Best to practice on a big old panel saw with 6 TPI.
for the 19 you can use a jeweler's file I suppose. Of course you will need to reset the points and that is tricky on a fine saw. Here is a saw set that works ok
http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=908
Best to just buy a rip with the number of teeth you need.
For example for quarter inch drawer sides etc., or even less thickness I would use a 15 TPI. I have no use for a 19 TPI wood saw.
For a little larger joints I have come to really like the 10 TPI that Lie-Nielsen makes. Faster, easier to sharpen, cuts straight because it cuts fast. Come to think of it just get some of these and be happy. Listen to mother
http://www.lie-nielsen.com/catalog.php?grp=1281
They are not perfect saws but they are inexspensive and damn nice.
roc
Give me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Edited 2/18/2009 1:29 am by roc
Pete Taran swears by the Stanley 42X saw set above all others. Lots of used can be found on the usual sites. As for my personal choice, I cannot opine because I purchased a 42X and it is the only one I have used>
Croc,
Why sharpen?
Buy a Dozuki. They cut like the wind and are inexpensive. When it is dull, replace the blade. Very simple, and cheap, and works well.
You will find people who say that Dozukis blades are hardened too much and the teeth fall out when using them in hardwood. I haven't experienced that. I am sure I could make it happen, but I can also use a light touch, especially knowing that it works.
However if you really like messing with tools rather than doing woodwork, then by all means, learn to sharpen! If you enjoy it enough, why not open a sharpening center and charge for your services.
That's what nice about woodwork. As long as you are safe, it doesn't matter what you do (as long as you are a hobbyist. because if you are a professional, you have to 'get real' now and then. )
Have fun.
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,Be careful here. The title is " C O V E R T " saw. No "N" . So this is all a secret agent kind of code talk deal. Not what you think it is at all. Did you think we were really talking about wood working ?I planed on using my nice, and EXPENSIVE !, Japanese saws to make the big dovetails when making my bench. I found that for some cuts the pull stroke and the orientation of the work just did not work out. Hard to see the line or hard to see where I was cutting up to. I don't even remember now what all the sitchiations were. But. I found I liked the western style saw better for some cuts even though I was fighting it because I already owned all these great Japanese saws that I really like and recommend and get along with.So now I know.Back then I had just read about a guy who had studied in Japan and worked in a small Japanese furniture works and had basically been a full time wood worker there. He then moved to England to study and work. He said in the article that when he would attempt to discuss the Japanese saws and tools in general the Brits would give him the cold shoulder and refuse to even talk about them.I was appalled to read that but soon after while building my bench I kind of could see where they were coming from.So I say have both. Of course the purple heart was too hard to use some of these fine saws on, I even refiled my western saws so they didn't grab and jump. I had been resawing with a huge Japanese rip ( which I refiled for the hard stuff ).It pretty much goes without saying I bought my bandsaw soon after much of that. : )It is a very satisfying thing to finally learn to file a saw so it cuts right. I am glad I struggled with it !SET OR NOT SET OR NOT SO MUCH SETI will say that I have always taken about half the set out of the Lie-Nielsen saws that I have bought over the years. I am afraid to take it all out. The other cheep saws I started with that had way too fine of teeth would bind and stall with no set while cuttiing DTs. Depends on the wood and even the particular hunk of wood. I suppose if I was cutting quarter sawn no set would be needed.Let me say officially and for all time. I don't have experience with zero set for DTs using a well made saw.But I do know very little set is much better than too much set. For sure !Cool ! Some thing new for me to explore.rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Roc,
There are so many ways of cutting dovetails.
I think the most classy is Tage Frid's Bowsaw.
It has a lot of pizazz!!!
The bowsaw is not getting the respect it deserves.
Whatever happened to the bowsaw?
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
"However if you really like messing with tools rather than doing woodwork,then by all means learn to sharpen."
Come on Mel , here you go again.
You just have to read the answers from Rob Millard and Richard Jones to appreciate that at least knowing how to sharpen and set saws is a useful adjunct to woodworking and not just "messing with tools".
Ofcourse the other thing is that without tools there can be no woodwork.
So tools are going to be discussed, especially in a section called "Hand Tools". And just because they are discussed it does not follow that it is at the expense of any woodworking...Philip Marcou
Philip,Have you ever noticed that everyone is biased?
You certainly are.
Me too.
Some people are biased toward giving simple obvious answers.
I am biased toward trying to get the questioner to do some thinking about the answers they are getting. You shouldn't worry about questioners getting the more obvious answers. There are always a number of people giving those answers. When I give an answer which is in a different direction, it is not to convince them that the answer I am giving is correct, but that there is no CORRECT answer. THere are lots of different answers. The goal of a woodworker is to find an answer that works for them.So I like to provide alternatives. After all, you know I am trying to model my life after yours. You provide alternatives. You saw that the market for handplanes had some holes and you set about plugging those holes. You did some hard work, came up with some creative alternatives, and made some new planes.ANYONE COULD HAVE JUST GONE OUT AND BOUGHT EXISTING PLANES. But you were a contrarian, and did something different. You didn't just follow the crowd. You took your own road. YOu did your own thinking. You made new things happen.Philip. You are a real mensch. You don't just sit around. You actively make things happen. You create new paths. YOu have made the world a different and a better place. So I like to model myself after you. Instead of taking the obvious well travelled road in answering questions, I often try to help the questioner see the question in a different light.I think I am the direct opposite of Derek, who comes up with simple, easy to follow directions and photos. There is no need to think. Just follow what you were told.Me, I like to cause the questioner to consider the problem, various solutions, how the solutions differ, how one would evaluate the various alternatives, and how to investigate and come up with your own decision.In other words, my whole approach is not to do other people's thinking for them, but to get them to learn how to solve their own problems. And just think, you are my role model in realizing that the world needs more alternatives, not fewer. Thanks for helping me figure that out. You are partially responsible for making me into what I have become.
Thank you very much.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
now wait just a gosh darn minute, Mel. It doesn't seem fair to "credit" (ie, blame) Philip for what you have become. I sense you were a project in the making long, long before Sir Philip ever entered your life.
As to trying to make people think for themselves, although i am a believer in the Socratic method (similar goal, but not the technique you use), sometimes a little guidance is helpful in having the mental lightbulb turn on. Besides, pointing someone in the right direction is different than ranting, and frequently can be accomplished with brevity.
Finally, while i am on a roll, keyboarding verbose prose can also keep one away from being productive in the shop . . . .
just my opinion; all may disagree or not; YMMV; yada yada etc
Patrick,
I wasn't blaming Philip at all. He was poking a little fun at me, and I was returning the favor. All in fun. I am responsible for me. He for him and you for you. BUT it is true that Philip has affected me greatly. He is an excellent role model. He is a self-starting go-getter, who has developed things that can only be called masterpieces. Who could do better than that? NOW FOR THE IMPORTANT PART. Phliip taught himself plane-making. Most of the people I know, taught themselves woodworking. That doesn't mean that Philip and the rest of my buddies didn't ask questions, and get information from others.Notice that if someone asked a question like "How do I hold a plane iron while honing it free hand, so that it doesn't rock?",
1) I would expect that at least 25 people would send excellent answers
2) many of them would disagree with one another
3) my sending yet another such response might only add to the noise.If those things happened, I might just send the OP a message suggesting some good times to use a honing jig -- just to widen his thinking, not to keep him from hand-honing. In other words, I'd seek to widen his horizons. BUT let's suppose the questioner asked the question and no one gave him an answer, then I would do the following:
1) ask him if he'd ever done any research on the topic, such as doing a search on the FWW site, where he will find a bunch of useful stuff.
2) give him some books and websites where he can find such information.Does that help explain my strange ideas on helping woodworkers learn to solve their own problems by doing their own research to find answers that have already been published about a billion times. Others might just send a message with yet another description. If you still think I am a bit "too far out", let me know. This is the way I raised my kids, and I have three: one got a Ph.D. in engineering and a beautiful Ph.D engineer from Canada; one who got a Masters in Civil Engineering and who married a sixth grade teacher, and a daughter who got a Masters in Business Administration (Computer applications) and who married a CPA with a Masters in Business Administration.So I believe that my penchant for trying to get folks to become as self sufficient as possible in facilitating their own learning, has a pretty good track record. You might excuse me for believe in wanting people to take primary responsibility for their own learning, and blame it on my background. I have a Ph.D. in Educational Psychology, Maybe people with too many years in school should stay out of woodworking? Waddyathink? Others believe that spoon-feeding is "being nice". I believe it is misguided, and makes people become overly dependent on others. In other words, I seek to help those who are willing to pay attention achieve an attitude toward self-directed learning, in which they seek and collect information, rather than just ask to be spoon fed. So you think that I am too wordy.
That is interesting.
I think that most Knots messages are like "sound bites", with little substance.
I find that my verbosity keeps the riff raff away. Those who like sound bites can read the short messages of others. Those who are looking for a bit more depth and substance can read my stuff, and then make up their own mind. Have fun, Patrick. Hope I haven't bored you.
Mel
PS Could this be an Italian-Irish culture difference between us? :-) Yuk yuk yuk. My father was born on St. Paddy's day, which makes me Half Irish.
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
>I think that most Knots messages are like "sound bites", with little substance.. . . . Those who like sound bites can read the short messages of others. Those who are looking for a bit more depth and substance can read my stuff, and then make up their own mind.<Mel,Perhaps I am agreeing with you because I make way long responses my self. But inside my rattly head I am thinking not. Well that didn't come out right. But it is so funny I decided to leave it : )I tend to be even more misunderstood if I don't elaborate so my posts will tend to continue to be long. It is not the fact that sharpening without a jig is possible that fascinates me. It is the details about how different people go about it and why and the perramiters involved viz., sharp enough to do the job or why go past this point for no practical return on the time, and when to go sharper or more precise and use a jig.Maybe I am that person that my mother was referring to when she said "Oh he just likes to talk to hear his head rattle".Well I like to hear other peoples head rattle as well.I am on the complete opposite end of the education scale from you. Perhaps it shows more than I am aware. So be it. I do the best I can. I would have quit high school if my friends, nearly all of them much older than I, had not insisted that I continue. At that time I was sixteen. Most of my friends were in their twenties, thirties, sixties, seventies. You get the picture.Actually I did leave for a few weeks and got talked into going back. I wanted to start my own business. Nothing I was learning in high school was helping me in any way toward that goal. I was even teaching myself math during lunch that pertained and the junk in my math classes did not or I could not make the leap to apply it due to lack of one on one. I didn't know what to ask.Any way I went back. I graduated. It was a waste of time and a mistake. I still don't know how reading Dante's Inferno and all that other drivel could apply to my goal(s). I was working two part time jobs. That was contributing ! Financially and in one I was working in my chosen field to at least an entry level.[ TIME FOR A DISCLAMER TO ANY YOUNG PEOPLE READING THIS, AND I AM SERIOUS, I DON'T RECOMMEND MY PATH TO YOU. CHANCES ARE YOU WILL DIG YOURSELF INTO A HOLE AND BECOME A BUM. STAY IN SCHOOL. IT IS A MUCH DIFFERENT WORLD NOW THAN THIRTY YEARS AGO. ]And we are back . . .I just looked up in my organizer whether I should use "e.g. for example gratia or viz., for videlicet" in the first paragraph above. I use that stuff about once a year so I gotta look in my notes. I didn't learn that in school. I persued it later on my own. After I had my self taught education in my field and had some leasure to persue the luxsury of Dante and the rest of it that they were cramming down my throat. History etc. I love reading about the founding fathers, the giants of industry, the inventors etc. Now !They are distractions and time wasters when attempting to learn how to brass braze or draw plans or the fine points of a chosen field.So you see I am one who took primary responsibility for their own learning. Certainly not in the system that you have recommended to your children. I am sure they have used the best road for them and my hearty respect for you and all your care in their direction. >and blame it on my background. Maybe people with too many years in school should stay out of woodworking? Waddyathink?<Ha ha ha ! I was messing with a young coworker the other day. He is in college. He was attempting to do a very simple task at work and it was not going well. He could not do it. He would not ask how to do it. He would not read the directions. He figured brute strength and ignorence would make up for any of the venues above.While he was out of the room I performed half his task in a matter of seconds. He had already asked every one else in the room to do it for him and they too had failed completely. He refused to ask me. The owner of the business came in and saw that one was done and he could not do the second. The owner said " don't be afraid to ask for help" and left.After a bit more of this pathetic struggle I said, in a good natured way, "you know I bet a year ago you could have done that no problem. Of course you realize the more time you spend at college the fewer things like that you will still be able to do ?"They hate me.So even if some one spoon feeds me here, which is quite rare, I am still going to try it and test it and find as much else as I can on the subject.Keep up the good work ! I understand what you are up to better now since you put it down.Me; I am just enjoying giving and taking about woodworking and the topics that branch off from woodworking. I love details ! Some call it navel gazing. I bet that same person is glad when their brain surgeon concentrated on details here and there rather than skip class, test out, and cheat.Just a guess though. Some like to live on the edge. Some can't remember how they wound up in their wheel chair drooling. It is all in what you like I suppose.To you and ALL keep the long posts and details coming ! Please !rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Edited 2/19/2009 4:58 pm by roc
mel,
as i fall asleep tonight, i pray-"OH LORD! MAKE THIS WORLD A FIT PLACE FOR MEL TO DWELL...AND MAY WE ALL SEE THE SENSE WITHIN HIS MANY WORDS. amen."
eef, who is not worthy.
Eef,Please don't take me too seriously.
I don'tJust ignore the long messages.
Have fun.
Start a woodworking school!
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
mel,
ok.
i won't.
eef
Sound bite here Mel , You forgot to mention the part about woodworking and how easy it is compared to lifes other challenges. I used to moan at the length of your posts,no more now that Roc has taken your title. I log on just to find your posts now, why you might ask ? You make it fun and I like that , For Example,"I have contacted Shirley McLaine" It makes me laugh when I type it .
Mel I have a new game now , Prior to logging on I try to guess how many posts Chris has not replied to. Please Taunton give that man a mallet, no one contributes more. Thankyou Chris.
Tom, A simpleton.
Tom,
I am really very happy that my fun writing gives you some enjoyment. Years ago, I spent a lot of time trying to rehabilitate Charles. I failed miserably. No improvement in Charles. I have tried to get David (Lataxe) to write shorter messages, to be less opinionated and negative, and to speak in English. Now he writes longer, more opinionated, more obtuse messages in his native gibberish. I have tried to rehabilitate Roc and Chris, both to no effect. I don't enjoy Charles, but I do enjoy Lataxe, Roc and Chris. Lataxe and Roc are WAY BEYOND HELP. They are having too much fun. I wish I could find a way to get Chris to focus on "woodworking" and not on the details of the metallurgy of plane irons. I believe he has been brainwashed by the plane makers and folks like Derek and Lataxe into actually believing that he needs 120,000 planes that were made to exacting specifications and cost no less than the GNP of Sweden. I believe my last attempt to urge him to step back and focus on making masterpieces, upset him, and caused him to think that I am a little weak in the mind. I am sorry he got upset, but he is probably right on the second point.I urge young woodworkers to focus on people like Ray Pine, Rob Millard, Richard Jones and other successful makers of masterpieces and to learn what they can about the minds and values and attitudes and skills of these men. I urge young woodworkers to read about the Goddards and the Townsends and the great makers of earlier Periods, and to try to eak out the things that allowed them to design and make such great furniture. I feel like that Greek guy who kept pushing a rock up a mountain, only to have it continually roll back down. I am only a little disappointed however. Not everyone can be GREAT. Actually about 50% of folks are below average! Yuk Yuk. If I can convince three young woodworkers to focus on the big picture of design, construction, finding and making customers, learning how to keep the business going, etc, then my attempts at guiding the youngsters will be a success. That means that I expect almost all promising youngsters to be corrupted by the Dark Side, which is necessary in order to keep the plane makers in business.By the way, I REALY LIKE THE PLANE MAKERS (Philip, Larry, Ron, etc.)and the SAWMAKERS (Mike) and the industry spokesmen (Derek). These guys are artists and craftsmen in their own right. Tools are fun. To make masterpieces of tools, you have to delve into the same degree of detail that a furnituremaker has to delve into with regard to making masterpieces of furniture. I just think that very few of us can focus equally on both. I am one of those who cannot. Heck, I have a hard time just wrapping my mind around the woodworking skills. Well, you were lamenting that I have not written long messages for a while. That should teach you !!!!! Yuk yuk. Watch what you ask for. Maybe I should go back and try to rehabilitate Charles again?
Nope, I think not. Time to go down to the workshop.
Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel old buddy. I fear you do need to cut back somewhat on that verbal flatulence you have developed of late. You've always been on the windy side, but you must have added a hefty dose of baked beans, sprouts and cauliflower cheese to your intellectual diet.
So many words, and so little said; the eyes just glaze over as I scroll through your posts so fast it's a blur. I'm not even sure what you said in the post I'm responding to, ha, ha.
You must have been in the educational field at some time in your life. I studied for a teaching qualification recently and I learned the essential motto in that line of work goes something like, "Never use one word when ten will do." Have you for instance come across Agyris and Schön's writings and theory on single loop learning and double loop learning? Pure windbaggery for that age-old aphorism, 'Learning by your mistakes, and doing something useful to avoid repeating them', but educationalists fall for it and manage thousands of oh-so-correctly referenced academic (basically plagiarism and log-rolling) words discussing that theory, ha, ha-- ha, ha, ha. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
Richard,
Always great to hear from you.
You are one of the few folks on Knots who tells it like it is. You are not mean and vindictive. You just shoot straight. I really admire that. I may disagree with you at times, but if I didn't, you would be a pretty dull person, and you are certainly not.As to my verbosity. I think it serves a filtering process. Very few people read my stuff. They are used to short sound-bites and pithy sayings. There are a few who occasionally enjoy a little depth -- the depth needed to really look at a phenomenon closely enough to wrap one's mind around it. There are those who occasionally enjoy looking at things from a different point of view. I enjoy such stuff.The nice thing about written material is that is is easily ignored. I believe that almost everybody on Knots ignores my stuff, so I am not worried about them. Also, my ideas are sufficiently different from those of most folks on Knots that I am not out there "looking for suport". I like to challenge and be challenged. That is the reason I like your furniture. I generally do not care for modern furniture. However, you and your furniture designs challenge me. I like much of your work. Why? I don't know, but you have a flair, and while I have my biases, I also have an open mind. Your work has served to open it even further. I thank you for that. Sorry about the long windedness. From now on I will try to be more like Lataxe -- brief, to the point, no extra words, and clearly and crisply stated. :-)Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Some people are biased toward giving simple obvious answers.I am biased toward trying to get the questioner to do some thinking about the answers they are getting.
Hi Mel
Nothing wrong with either approach ... but one does need to determine what is right for each person. There is no "one size fits all".
What one does when we post suggestions here is to offer alternatives. When the question is answered with specifics, then the reader is not in any doubt about what was intended. The more ideas offered by posters, the more options there will be.
None of this removes free will or creates lazy thinking on the part of the one asking for advice. What it does in fact do is encourage thinking, since decisions need to be made, options weighed up, and consequences thought through. At least the Questioner is in a position to take action, rather than remain immobilised by confusion or the anxiety that comes fom doubt (i.e. a lack of knowledge).
I have a lot of confused and anxious parents come to me every day for advice on their children. If I went "mmm yes .. " and imitated Carl Rogers (a well-known Humanist) or "ahhh .. yes .." and imitated Sigmund Freud (a well-known humourist - just kidding - I also trained as a psychoanalyst), they would leave frustrated, stressed and poor (since it would take years for them to reach a solution).
Sometimes people just need a nudge in the right direction to get going. Then they can do it on their own.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Edited 2/20/2009 2:57 am ET by derekcohen
Edited 2/20/2009 2:59 am ET by derekcohen
Poor Croc is saying to him self " how did I get all this ? I just wanted to know if I should sharpen this poor little saw."he . . .is . . . tip . . . toeing . . . . out . . . the . . . back . . . before something else happens . . .: )rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Edited 2/20/2009 6:57 am by roc
Derek,
Everybody needs something different. Couldn't agree with you more.But we can all MAKE A DIFFERENCE. At least, we can try to make a difference. Teachers also have individual differences. You are the type who helps everyone, by providing them with a crystal clear answer which is based on a great deal of homework which you have relieved the student of doing, and which is based on YOUR value system of what is important, and which hands the student AN answer which will work. For this, the student has had to do nothing. They just ask, and lo and behold, the answer arrives!YOu seem to believe that a teacher is supposed to impart "Facts". I disagree. A common teacher imparts facts. A great teacher motivates. A great teacher attempts to change a student's attitudes towards the subject at hand, and toward learning itself. I am not interested in teaching someone how to make dovetails or how to hone a chisel. Any fool can learn to do those things. Learning to do trim carpentry or simple woodwork is quite simple. But some young woodworkers have the potential to be GREAT WOODWORKERS. My interest is in insuring that is someone wants to become great, that we do everything possible to help them unleash their full potential.The MOST IMPORTANT QUALITY A GREAT WOODWORKER HAS is the self confidence to know that they can figure things out. THAT IS WHAT I LIKE TO FOSTER.You teach them a woodworker which of two planes you think is better because of research you have done on the two. You teach a woodworker to hone a skewed iron. I am interested in teaching them the ATTITUDE that they don't need a teacher. They can find out all of that information on their own, JUST LIKE YOU DID. I get annoyed when someone posts a question without having done homework to find the information, which is ubiquitous. I want every woodworker who wants to be GREAT to learn, as early as possible, that then can find information on the web and in books and on videos to answer virtually any woodworking question. I want each one of them to have the same confidence you have in answering such questions. I WANT THEM TO BE BE SELF-RELIANT and SELF-CONFIDENT, just like you are. I want these potentially great woodworkers to realize that these trivial issues (how to hone, which plane to use when,etc) are NECESSARY SKILLS but not the most important things they must acquire. I want each of them to believe in their own abilities. I want each of them to stand as proud as our friend, Mr. Savage.I refuse to help a person who does not have the self respect to try to answer a question before asking it. The difference between us, Derek, is our biases. You are biased towards imparting facts. I am biased toward imparting attitudes. We are quite different. Here on Knots, there are many who ask "WHICH BANDSAW SHOULD I BUY?" WHAT IS THE BEST STONE POND?" We also have people like Sean (Samson) who considers himself a student of woodwork. Sean, IMHO, is a person to be emulated. He has very high ideals, and very high standards. He has been one of the strongest influences on me. He has the RIGHT STUFF as we would say at NASA. Anyone can learn how to make dovetails. Anyone can learn how to teach dovetails. Not everyone has Sean's drive to be great. I would like woodworkers to find people like Sean, like Ray, like Savage, like Richard Jones, like Rob Millard, etc etc etc etc, and learn their ATTITUDES toward woodwork. That is the path toward greatness. I have been called an elitist for a long time. I am an elitest. I believe that many more people can do great things than actually do. If I can help one person determine that they would like to achieve greatness rather than to achieve adequacy, then I have done a great thing.I think it is fun and edifying to have great thoughts, and to believe you can achieve them, and to achieve them. That is how we differ. We have different goals. You impart facts and skills. I suggest people just look those things up in previously published materials, and that they do that regularly, so that they become so used to it, that it is second nature to them, AND SOON they rise above those things and start getting interested in the more challenging stuff, in the rarified air.Have fun.
Hope I have inspired you.
:-)
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Croc,
I did it to my saw and have done it for others, with a marked improvement in the quality and accuracy of the cut. I believe mine has more teeth than yours, but I know I did a very fine saw for someone. I also pounded out all the set, with a light hammer and an anvil.
Rob Millard
http://www.americanfederalperiod.com
Rob, am I right to assume that you pounded out the set before sharpening. Also, did you reset or leave it with no set at all.
thanks Rob.
Croc,
I did remove the set before sharpening, and I did not reset the teeth. For dovetails the set isn't necessary.
Sorry about not being more clear.
Rob Millard
It is certainly do-able Croc. I have done it to a few saws, and I've also changed the number of teeth per inch (TPI) to make them even more useful because you don't want too many TPI for rip cuts. To change the TPI you need to remove all the teeth from the existing saw. I file them off using a coarse file rather in the manner that you plane the edge of a piece of wood with a try plane to get that straight.
Next you decide how many TPI you want. For most reasonably delicate rip cuts, eg, the faces of tenons, for cutting dovetails, et al, something near 15 TPI I find works well. Get a hacksaw blade and using a permanent marker mark off the gullets between the teeth that coincide with your desired TPI. You attach this to the side of your jointed blade and file gullets to suit your marks. You can use other methods to ascertain the gullet spacing, eg, a piece of heavy paper with marks on it.
After that it's a case of sharpening the tooth profile desired and setting the teeth.
If you're new to this saw sharpening malarkey this discussion at Vintage Saws might help.
Is it worth the trouble? It depends on your needs, but knowing how to sharpen and actually being able to sharpen is knowledge and skill that keep saws working as they should, just as knowing how to sharpen a chisel or plane keeps those tools working sweetly. Slainte.
Richard Jones Furniture
Look in Peter Taran's web site by googling "vintage saws". In this site is an EXCELLENT primer by Mr. Taran. With this primer, I learned how to convert and/or sharpen saws.
Edited 2/18/2009 2:49 pm ET by Cubby
Croc:
The easy answer is, yes you can refile any crosscut saw to make it a rip saw without filing off the teeth and starting over (the opposite is also true, but you typically require more tpi on a crosscut saw than a rip to get the same smoothness of cut). 19 tpi is awfully fine for a rip filed saw, even for dovetail work. Depending on the stock you work, 15 tpi or 13 tpi may be better. It doesn't cost much to take your saw to a professional sharpener to get new teeth cut and sharpened. Just specify minimum set (or no set if you can add set later yourself to meet your needs).
I'm curious, what brand, size, and handle configuration of saw are you asking about? Depending on the saw, you may be better off keeping it as is and use it as a crosscut carcass saw and get yourself a new dovetail saw. If money is an issue Crown actually makes an inexpensive saw that works well (here's a link). http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=850
Otherwise LN, Grammercy, Lee Valley, Adriatools, and others have really nice saws. The new Veritas saw is very comfortable, cuts extremely well, and costs $60 plus shipping. You just have to get past the modern look of the thing.
gd
This is more fun all the time! I was on the road the end of last week, and so I'm doing a bit of catch up here and found that the regular gang is off and running in another epistomological shooting match. It starts with a reasonably straightforward question about a prosaic matter -- "should I do this with a saw?" Then off we go to who knows, how they know, why they know, and who can tell!
Croc, the answer to your question is that it's your saw and you can do anything you want to it. I learned to sharpen saws because I was in the same boat many years ago with nary an internet connection in site. I had a dulled DT saw and a day's work of joinery ahead of me, so I said to myself, "Self, I guess we need to sharpen this saw. How would I do that?" What I discovered was that I could make the saw do what I wanted by recutting the teeth and shaping them the best way for the task. I discoverd, through trial and error, that teeth cut to rip with no set other than that left by the file was the best way to go for most DT work. The rip cut is fastest, and most cuts for DTs aren't deep enough to cause the blade to bind, so you don't need much if any set. And, the more set you have, the more the saw can wander from a straight cut. so the answer is, yes you can, you should, and there are a lot of other things you can and should do.
Now, back to my initial comments, I know Mel has often addressed the issue of how we know who's right and wrong in this wide ranging forum. I think he put his finger on one reason we tend to have a lot of divergent oppinions and why it's hard to tell whose answers are the good ones when he said many posts back, "Most of the people I know, taught themselves woodworking." I did, and I suspect that given the age of a lot of our posters, many of us have. Not only that, many of us taught ourselves at a time when the only source of information was a magazine or two. The result is that as a group, we've probably investigated, tried, or developed 1,001 ways to do just about everything. When someone asks a seemingly simple question, we have 1,001 answers and, because they're answers for which we've worked long and hard and they've worked for us, we're pretty stuck on them. I think that's a lot more fun than if we all had one answer -- golly that would be boring!
Verne
If a tree falls in the forest, and no one is there to cut it up and make something with it . . . what a waste!<!----><!----><!---->
Ya but,
How's come we don't get no real shooting matches a stirred up here? Good gosh over on Woodnet the troops were ready to tear down the whole internet over the new Woodriver handplanes introduced by WoodCraft! Same thing started on Sawmill Creek but didn't get nearly as far (maybe Mel can weigh in on these planes: he works at WoodCraft but is a devoted LN owner). Also on Sawmill Creek there was/is quite a heated discussion on saws.
Hit the enter button too soon so I's gotta edit this thing!
Crap, I fergot what I waz going to say! Probably something along the line that we aint a socialist state yet and if you buy a tool, it's yours (or Citibank's or BofA) to what you want with it. Want to cut cross cut teeth? Have a go at it! Want to chop off that chisel handle? Why not? These aren't high value items and most will never be collector items, or at least not in our lifetimes.
And so, I'm well into another Monday morning, without any caffeine as I have quit that damned drug on advice of what it does to my BP. So I will ramble until I find an appropriate replacement (maybe chocolate or pizza or both).
T.Z.
Edited 2/23/2009 10:30 am ET by Tony Z
Uh, TZ, I think we said the same thing there -- sort of -- but maybe you shut off the white crystalline xanthine alkaloid just a little too quickly. Wish you luck with locating a substitute as soon as possible! ;)Verne
If a tree falls in the forest, and no one is there to cut it up and make something with it . . . what a waste!<!----><!----><!---->
Yeah I know, I was just trying to get some things stirred up!
As our fearless leader Mel has said recently, it sure is getting boring around here.
T.Z.
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