I’m looking to build frame and panel doors where the rails and stiles are both joined with tenons and coped with profiles, like the way they were done in the past.
In other words, I want more than just the “stub” tenon left by a coped rail and stile joint made on a shaper or router table. I want a stronger joint with a longer tenon. I’ve seen it done before, as my kitchen cabinets use this technique.
Any ideas?
Replies
This door is different, but is the way I usually do a bead detail, which is simply mitered where the rail and stile meet.
http://www.wenzloffandsons.com/temp/miter1.jpg
Had there been a thumbnail profile, the rail would have been coped over the stile's thumbnail. Mitering is faster when it can be used, but coping is nearly as easy.
In either case, I still use a full tenon but there is still a haunch as I fill the groove for the panel with the haunch. But no stubbies.
The process is the same. I use hand methods, you are probably using machines. It will take some hand work. If you have coped in crown into an inside corner rather than mitering...a cabinet door is easier as there is less a cope.
The rail's thumbnail for instance will go to the end of the rail's tenon shoulder. As will the stile's. But on the rail, miter the thumbnail at a 45 degree andgle back to the tenon shoulder. That will need to be coped to fit the thumbnail on the stile.
Make sense?
Take care, Mike
Mike,
there is a scandinavian style bench/blanket box in the original best of FWW furniture book that describes this approach well. The key to neatness (good fit) seemed to be use of a small mitre guid for the paring chisel.
Dave
Yep, for mitered ones I use good old Preston miter templates to guide the chisels...
http://www.wenzloffandsons.com/temp/mitre_templates.jpg
But I have used ones made from wood. Basically they are just a piece of wood wide enough to create a groove wider than the rail is thick and it sets down on the rail. One or both ends being themselves mitered.
Take care, Mike
For my kitchen doors I chose to make the doors with miter joints that were reinforced with splines,feathers,keys. All these terms can be used interchangably. The joint is plenty strong and you don't have to buy door router bit sets.
In industrial shops they use a specialized machine (tenoner) that cuts long tenons and the cope. Loose tenons are an easy way for a small shop to do it. You can also forego the through cope and do a stopped miter, which will keep your shoulders square.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
brian,
If you have multiple doors to make, you may want to cut the cope on the shaper. This means cutting the tenons to whatever length you wish, then using a special spindle called a "stub" spindle, on the shaper, to mount the coping cutter. The top of the stub spindle is flush with the top of the cutter, so the tenon can pass over it. The whole end of the rail gets coped, so that ther is no need to trim away the molding from the end of the stile.
This requires that cutting the tenon and coping the molding be done in two passes/ two setups on the shaper (or ideally, two shapers), but is pretty fast once setup is done, esp as I say if you have a bunch of doors to build. Be aware that the front and back shoulders of the tenons will need to be offset, the amount depending on the size/profile of the molding, and location of its fillet, quirk, or perk, whatever you choose call it.
The traditional, hand-cut method of coping, as Mike described it, is faster if you have only a few doors to put together. In lieu of mitering the mold back to "reveal" the shape of the cope, I have made a short (3") lenght of stock shaped along its edge to fit like a saddle over the mold. The ends of this bit of reverse molded stock are mitered back, so that when placed at the end of the rail it provides a template to trace around, describing the shape of the cope onto the mold. I cut the cope directly from this, eliminating the intermediate step of mitering the mold. Saves a few seconds of time, especially if you are using the same molding profile over and over on your panel door frames. You'll still need to offset the shoulders of the tenons, unless you are milling away the whole end of the stile (on both sides of the groove for panel) instead of just the molding.
Regards,
Ray Pine
Ray, I had trouble following that. Can you illustrate with a picture?
Mike D
Mike,
I wish I could, but don't have a camera that's cumputer compatible.
Imagine this: if your door frame has a quarter-round molding, make a stick of cove molding to mate with it (cove matches the qtr rd). Miter both ends of the cove back, so you have a "left" and "right" hand miter. When you lay the bit of cove mold over the qtr rd, the mitered end shows you what a cope on the qtr rd will look like. Trace the end of the cove onto the qtr rd with a pencil, and chop to the line with an in-cannel gouge.
Hope this clarifies things.
Ray
Thanks, Ray,
I think that I get it now.
Mike D
I too had a bit of trouble understanding the latter part of your reply. I would also like to know where I might find a stub spindle for the shaper. Thanks for the great suggestion.
brian,
See my post to mike, for another try at using a bit of matching molding to cope.
Both my shapers are Deltas. One is an old Rockwell (1/2" spindle), the other a newer, made in the Orient, model. Both offered 1/2" stub spindles as accessories when I bought them. The "nut" on the top of the stub spindle is a largish, flat-head allen screw, that screws flush into a recess in the top of the coping cutter. Cutters I have are cove-and -bead, and a small ogee.
Ray
Hi joinerswork,
I just stumbled onto this thread. So it's the cutter that has a recess in the top so it's flush with the top of the spindle? Or would it be a special spindle as well? Boy, it would be great to have longer tenons with a cope cut now and then.
Paul
cole,
Yes, the cutter is made to mate with the special spindle (the sticking cutter is a standard type cutter, for conventional threaded spindle; matching coping cutter has the recess for the allen screw). The regular spindle is removed, and stub spindle replaces it. On my older machine, a nut at the bottom of the shaper's arbor holds a 3/16" or so through-bolt that keeps all in place. The newer machine has spindles with their own bearings, held in place with a pair of studs w/ nuts. The spindles are double-ended; the stock one has 1/2"/ 3/4" diameter spindles, the replacement has a 1/2" stub one end, with an arbor for router bits on the other.
Ray
Yeah I got it after reading it a couple times. It's definitely tricky to describe. My shaper is a ShopFox, probably made in china or taiwan as well. I'll see if that spindle works on it. So as I understand it, I can just take whatever profile cutter that I have and remove the bearing and rabeting cutter?
brian,
I dunno about your shopfox. The cutters I have are old rockwell/delta high speed steel three wing cutters, and are not made up with bearings, rabbeting cutters, etc, like the modern sets for stub-tenon door frames. Rather they were sold as a pair of cutters, one a conventional three wing cutter for use with a regular threaded spindle (1/2") to cut the stuck mold on the frame edges, the other cutter is the matching (cope) profile, with its top surface having a recess for the head of the allen screw to fit into. Actually, I have two sets, one is cove-and -bead profile, the other is a smallish ogee shape.
Ray
Brian,
You might want to check out the new set of Freud router bits for making the joint you are looking for. The bits come apart and you can make a tenon as long as you want. I have not tried them , but have see them advertised and they look pretty slick. Maybe another reader has tried them. I would check them out.
Terry
The Freud router bit sounds like a great and simple solution too. I'll look around for it. I'd love to hear of anyone's experience with it. Thanks
I found the ad for the Freud bits in a recent Fine Woodworking, maybe Jan-Feb. Looks like a great design for solid entry doors. I was looking for something for cabinet doors, but I think I will probably end up getting a set of the Freud bits so I can design some nice doors for my house. Thanks.
What type of shaper do you have?
There is the option that Ray has described, then if you have a heavy shaper there are cope and stick cutter sets made by Leitz, Guido and others for doing cabinet size to house door size.These do the tenon , shoulder and cope in one pass.Very expensive-only for those having to do many .
It's a 2 hp shopfox with 3/4" max spindle.
Edited 3/11/2007 3:55 pm ET by brianward
I have ####PM chain-mortiser and tenoner, without the cope heads, and what I do is after cutting the tenon on the rails, I cut a 45º bevel on the stick-profile on the ends of the rails. On the styles, I cut a 45º bevel slightly less than the width of the rails. I saw all of these on the TS sled with the blade tilted, I then saw away most of the waste to the back of the fillet of the styles on a band-saw, then follow with a router jig, to finish the cut to a smooth depth. I can hand cut a small cope on the ends of the rails with a number of hand carving tools, and dremel type grinding tools to remove the bulk. If you have done all of the above, a 1/8" overlap of the cope on the end of the rail is usually all that is needed. A cope all of the way across the end of the rail does not matter, as long as the ends have enough range to cover any expected movement.
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