I’ve attempted to refinish the top of an oak veneered night stand and have encountered one problem after another. The piece is a mass produced item which I’m guessing is about 15 -20 years old. The finish, which appeared to be a polyurethane – like finish (very thick), was severely damaged – almost entirely cracked and flaking – with black water marks.
I stripped it using Klean Strip. I next applied Klean Strip’s Stripping Project After Wash. The after wash immediately transformed itself into a white residue, which was very difficult to remove. ( I wiped the surface repeatedly with water dampened paper towels, and followed up by wiping with towels lightly dampened with laquer thinner.) I used a combination of a cabinet scraper, 220, 320, & 400 grit sandpaper to remove the remainder of the damage.
I then applied a coat of Minwax English Chestnut stain. The stain fisheyed over every square inch of the top. (The owner had mentioned she used Pledge on the furniture.) After being wiped and allowed to dry, however, the stain coat looked fine. After reading all of Jeff Jewitt’s articles I could find and rereading Bob Flexner’s book on finishing, I concluded my only option was to coat the top with a spray coat of shellac. Lacking spray equipment, I consulted Zinsser about the suitablility of their Bull’s Eye clear (dewaxed) spray sealer & finish. Assured that several coats of this would seal the contamination, and that I could end with an application of paste wax, I proceeded. The Zinsser can has a meager spray pattern, which made even coverage difficult, and no amount of adjusting the spray distance eliminated the orange peel. After one hour, I sprayed another light coat. 24 hours later, I sanded lightly with 400 paper, wiped the surface clean with water dampened paper towels, allowed it to dry, blew it off with compressed air and applied a final light coat. 24 hours later I sanded again lightly with 400 paper. I then applied a light coat of Minwax finishing wax, using 0000 steel wool as an applicator. I buffed it with a soft rag and it looked absolutely flawless. (It did, however, take an enormous amount of buffing to get rid of all traces of haze.) Two days later, the owner placed a metal lamp on it (the lamp had protecters on its base) and within a day, the lamp had made whitish looking spots where the base contacted the tabletop. I attemped to rub out the spots with steel wool & paste wax, and – although I was able to make the spots less conspicuous – they did not disappear, and it appeared that there were depressions where the lamp had made contact.
I couldn’t imagine how the shellac hadn’t cured in this amount of time. And I particularly couldn’t understand how I had been able to sand and rub vigorously with steel wool and paste wax with no indication that the shellac was anything but totally hardened. I asked the owner to replace the lamp on the table, but to place something between it and the table to see whether the weight of the lamp had sunken the finish or whether perhaps there might have been some trace of residue on the protecters which had attacked the finish. This was now two full weeks after I had delivered the piece. With a clean cloth between the lamp and the table, new marks appeared as before.
Now totally paranoid, I suspected the Zinsser shellac never cured – or maybe only the first coat never cured – or maybe the Zinsser didn’t like the minwax stain or the finishing wax – or maybe my vigorous buffing generated enough heat to soften the shellac – or despite my repeated cleaning, I didn’t remove all traces of the stripper, which somehow caused the shellac to soften – or maybe the original problem wasn’t silicone after all, but some alien substance the manufacturer used to impregnate the wood. One Zinsser rep says I applied too many coats. Another says I did everything as it should be done and can’t imagine what caused the problem.
While this saga was developing, I was already starting to refinish this piece’s mate. This time I stripped with Klean Strip, but used mineral spirits rather than After Wash to remove the stripper residue. Then I wiped the piece thoroughly with denatured alcohol. (This all upon the recommendation of the Zinsser rep.) On this second piece, I had to resort to oxalic acid to remove one water mark which penetrated more deeply than I dared sand. I neutralized this application with baking soda and many water cleanings. Then I wiped the piece thoroughly with mineral spirits before proceeding with the stain. The stain fisheyed as thoroughly as had the first piece. I bought a new can of shellac, brought it to slightly warmer than room temperature before spraying a mist coat. The warmer shellac was only slightly less inclined toward orange peel. This brings us to the present. I will need to refinish the first piece, and perhaps start again on the second.
Clearly I need some help here. All suggestions will be most welcome!
Edited 11/15/2004 10:24 pm ET by JoiseyGirl
Replies
Don't use water to remove paint stripper. It raises the grain. Use mineral spirits. Be absolutely sure you have removed ALL vestiges of the stripper. It contains wax and will compromise any finish put on it.
Thanks, Gretchen, for the reminder about the stripper wax. This could be the source of the problem.
Joisey Girl
Joisey Girl,
There are so many variables in refinishing, it's hard to figure out what went wrong. I wonder if the shellac is too old. I don't know how much this is an issue with the sealed areosol cans, but it is with regular brushing shellac. If there is a date code on the shellac can,perhaps the reps will clue you in to how to find the freshest one on the shelf. Could be incompatability with the stain you used, as you suspect, or maybe the stain wasn't totally cured, and the solvent trapped under the shellac softened it.
As far as sealing in silicone contamination, I feel that 6 light coats that dry quickly are better than 3 heavy ones that stay wet long enough for the contaminate to wick up out of the wood. As you have found, it's tough to get even coverage with spray cans.
Having sealed the wood with a thin layer of shellac, you might consider top coating with something more durable (resistant to water and alcohol) than shellac. Let the shellac cure out, sand with 320, wipe down, then top coat with lacquer or poly. Some may say that this is adding yet another variable, and it is...
A long time ago, I had a similar problem with a pair of chairs I refinished using aerosol lacquer. I ended up stripping them again, and trying aerosol polyurethane. Apparently the solvent in the poly liked whatever was on the old surface, and the second go 'round was successful. Still don't know why.
I HATE warranty work!
Good luck with your project,
Ray
Ray,
I much appreciate your thoughts and suggestions. Nice somehow to know someone else is devoting thought to a problem. And has experienced similar bafflements.
My plan last night was to call the maufacturer of the Shellac to see if we could establish a date of manufacture. As it turns out, the date is coded on the can, and the rep was able to translate the encryption into "May 12, 2004, 30th batch of the day." So much the for too-old to ever cure theory. Too bad, really, as I'd have reason for more hope with the next trial.
Your idea about stain itself causing the problem is interesting. And testable to an extent. Unfortunately, manufacturers don't seem to know much about products other than their own, so if you mix brands of stain/ finish, assurances of compatibility are unlikely. I could try the same stripper/ stain combo on a different scrap of oak and elimate one logical possibility. Can't try a different spray shellac, as there are no other aerosols to my knowledge. And at this point there's no factoring in the unknown of the veneer contaminent without repeatedly stripping the whole piece. I'm still considering brushing newly mixed shellac on the next trial. Perhaps this will work if shellac is all I plan to use (plus wax eventually) Too bad I can't confirm the source of contamination as silicone from the pledge, wax from the stripper, or unidentified wierd stuff. Don't think I want to be still more aggressive with the stripper cleaners (like trying TSP), for fear of lifting the veneer. Don't want that. Perhaps I'll have to take the risk if the latest idea isn't successful.
I' m now wondering whether I may have just buffed out out the first piece too soon and too vigorously. Perhaps the shellac was hard enough to withstand the sanding without balling up, but not hard enough to prevent the steel wool-applied wax from becoming slightly combined with the top layer of shellac. What do you think of that possibility? I've had a weight comparable to the offending lamp on the second piece (which has 2 very light coats of shellac - the most recent 48 hours ago, but has not been sanded, waxed, or rubbed out) for most of the day. I'm waiting to see whether it leaves any disfigurement. If not, I may have some support for my recent theory. In which case, I'll wait a month before lightly sanding out the peel & rubbing out the finish.
Your idea of further coating with poly was what I had intended to do from the start of the contamination problem. After 2 coats of shellac, however, the coat of poly I tried fisheyed as well, at which point I stripped it and redid it as I described. I had given the shellac a very light 400 or 600 sanding before the poly, and could have broken through the shellac in some places. The fisheye in the poly was nowhere near the level of that in the stain. I do feel that I have to establish for sure that I can get the shellac to cure fully before I think about putting poly on top of it.
By the way, I let the last round of stain dry 48 + ours in a very well heated shop before applying a mist coat of shellac. I hear what your saying about the stain perhaps not having cured and having released solvents into the shellac. Could this really be after 48 hours?
Thanks,
Joisey Girl
Could the lamp be getting hot, and that's why it sank in?
I wondered about that, too, since the sinking seemed consistent with heat damage. Certainly there's no appreciable heat from the light bulb (a meager wattage), which is 15" above the table. The stand, however. is metal, and the tables are near a picture window which does get sun. I wondered whether the metal could have held enough heat to do this. If so, though, this would suggest that a shellac/wax finish is just too fragile for much of anything. I don't think it would have lasted this long as a finishing choice if that were the case. Also, the spots appeared again when a cloth was placed between the lamp and the table in a different position on the table.
I've now tried applying the same stripper I used for the table, the same method of removing the stripper, the same stain, & the same shellac on a piece of solid white oak. There was no fisheye in the stain & no orange peel in the shellac. I'm pretty well convinced the problem is the awful case of silicone (or ???) contamination in the veneer.
Thanks
Joisey Girl
JoiseyGirl,
Your shellac was made in the fifth month, this is the eleventh: your shellac is six months old, or thereabouts, which means it's too old. Whatever the manufacturers say, six months is pushing shellac too far. (You don't think the manufacturers are going to give the earliest experation date, do you?) That's the reason I suggested making your own from flakes--you'll always be using fresh shellac. If you have to remove what's on the piece now, and it sounds like you may, you could mix your own.
As for water raising veneer, it can happen, but usually only on older pieces where the adhesive is hide glue. On a piece less than thirty years old it should not be a problem. (Even on old pieces, if the hide glue was in good shape, you can usually reactivate it with heat and pressure.) Besides, I'm not advocating that you use water; I was merely reminding you that there's nothing inherently wrong with using water. If the stripper you used was supposed to be removed with water, there's no reason not to, otherwise, there's no reason to use it.
As to the fish eye fighter, do what you want. However, I've used it and it worked fine for me; I've not heard of anyone running into trouble with it, but that's certainly possible. I have no idea what it's made of.
Again, I would still advise you to use shellac you mixed fresh yourself, and if you need to, use silicon infection fighter.
Alan
Joisey,
I dunno about the shellac. Like Alan, I like to use shellac that I mix myself, and 6 mo is getting some age to it. I'm no chemist so I don't know if the changes that make shellac stay soft will take place in a sealed aerosol can. I suppose you can spray some on another piece of bare wood, and see it it gets hard by itself.
Fish eye destroyer is available at auto paint stores, or through constantine's. While I understand your reluctance to contaminate a new finish with silicone, I will suggest to you that this piece is already contaminated, so the damage is done...However, I've not tried using it with polyurethane, so can't give you any help there. My experience with fisheye eliminator is limited to spraying lacquer. Instead of topcoating with poly, if I didn't have a spray outfit, I'd consider trying Deft (brushing lacquer) with some fisheye destroyer. Maybe avoid the shellac step altogether since it doesn't seem to be sealing in the contaminant.
Good luck,
Ray
JoiseyGirl,
Wow. You really have some troubles. It seems to me that you might have difficulties in more than one step in this sad story.
As you know, it's vitally important to get all the bad stripper off of the wood. I'm not familiar with the product you used, but a good first step might be to do what the directions say. It may require more than one step and more than one product to get rid of all the stripper.
BTW, there's nothing inherently wrong with using water. After all, many finishing products are water based. It may raise the grain, but IME water doesn't raise the grain much, if at all, on a piece that's being re-finished. In fact, I've used a stripper that was supposed to be washed off with water.
As you already know, your wood almost certainly is contaminated with silicon. Planing, sanding and scraping can get rid of it, but I wouldn't rely on it--especially on a veneered piece. There is a product made that eliminates the bad effects of silicon. I wish I could remember its exact name: it's something like "Fish-eye Fighter"; I'm told there is more than one brand on the market. I would track some down and use it.
Why do you think your shellac didn't dry? It was probably dry if you sanded it and you got powdery dust. However, I wouldn't use any pre-mixed shellac, ever, unless the date of manufacture was marked clearly on the can. Mixing your own from flakes ensures you always use fresh finish, and saves money. It also lets you use all the different colors shellac comes in.
(To test your shellac, put a bit on a piece of glass and see if it dries.)
Shellac doesn't really cure, it dries. With fresh shellac and dry, lukewarm weather you can safely apply several coats in one day. I've put on as many as six or seven coats in one day.
For your application I would use several thin coats--about a 1 or 1 1/2 lb. cut. I always use a thin cut for the first coat--called a wash coat, or spit coat--and because I already have that cut mixed... A thin first coat puts down an even base that resists the blotchies and will reveal any latent troubles with fish-eye or the like. There's no need to sand between coats; shellac remains soluble after it dries. Removing nits, bits and motes between coats and a very light sanding after all the coats are applied is all it needs. I usually use about a 400 wet and dry sandpaper, lubricated with water that has a drop or two of soap in it. After that I like to finish with 0000 steel wool lubricated with wool lube.
I love wax on top of shellac. It's perfect for an occasional table that isn't going to see hard use or contact from lots of liquids. I brew up my own wax, but I'm told there are good waxes avaiable. I use 0000 steel wool as an applicator. Depending on how shiney I want it, I buff long and hard or short and fairly easy.
Wow! Did I really go on this long--again! Don't bother reading all this. Wait for the movie to come out.
Jeeez. Can't I ever SHUT UP!
Alan
Thanks, Alan. My only concern about flooding the piece with water is the risk of lifting the veneer. I agree entirely that, with solid wood , water is unlikely to create any problems that can't be addressed. Since the fish eye eliminator products aren't relevant when limited to spraying with an aerosol can ( no spray equipment here), I don't see an application for them here. Even if they could be added to the stain, I don't see the stain fisheye (which was eliminated after wiping the stain) as a problem. And since the fish-eye eliminator is in fact silicone, I don't see what I would gain, since I'd still need to use shellac. Brushing fresh shellac will probably be part of the next step. Since I'm no longer dead set on finishing with a poly topcoat, the issue of bringing the contamination above the surface of the seal coat by the mechanical action of brushing becomes a moot issue. Thanks for your thoughts.
Joisey Girl
Edited 11/16/2004 9:59 pm ET by JoiseyGirl
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