Replies

1. 
   Samson | Sep 05, 2009 02:57am | #1

   I firmly believe that unless it is a museum piece (super rare), tools ought to be used.  A Witherby drawknife, while certainly nice, is not uncommon or likely to be used up by another generation's worth of cabriole legs etc.

1. 
   Tony Z | Sep 05, 2009 02:37pm | #5

   I fully agree and will add that except for those museum pieces, most so-called collector pieces are modest in value compared to other collectables.  Our forebears would not think twice of altering any tool to make it more "user friendly".  Storage problems?  Drill a hole in the sole and hang that new Bedrock on a nail.  That panther carved on your saw handle gave you a splinter?  Sand the dayam think off!

2. 
   KiddervilleAcres | Sep 05, 2009 04:17am | #2

   dlb,

   Samson has it right.

   Sharpen/hone a razor edge on it and have some fun making cabriole legs with it.  Ray Pine (joinerswork) posted a pic of a clamping fixture for use with vise on a workbench that can esaily be used whilst thinking about a hossy.  I'll dig thru my files and post it for you.

   Regards,

   Bob @ Kidderville Acres

   A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!

3. 
   flairwoodworks | Sep 05, 2009 06:34am | #3

   I hope to never buy a tool that is too nice to use. All my tools are users. The ones that don't get used just aren't that useful to me - they're certainly not trophies.

   Chris @ www.flairwoodworks.com
   and www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)

    - Success is not the key to happiness.  Happiness is the key to success.  If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer

4. 
   derekcohen | Sep 05, 2009 08:51am | #4

   Hi dlb

   You have to ask "what is a collector tool?".

   What a collector tool is not is a tool that is available to many, and where the supply is unlikely to run out (either new or used). 

   Just because something is old ... ok, vintage ... does not make it collectable. First off, they must be rare.

   Collector tools do not need to be in great condition, but generally the value (=desirability) drops off dramatically in line with condition. The level of originality of the tool is foremost (ok, second to being rare).

   Is your Witherby a unique or rare, close-to-new, tool that is in demand? Will you be reducing the population of rare Witherby drawknives by using this one?

   If not, then I would sharpen it up and use it.

   Some tools are considered by others to be "investiments" and purchased for this reason. They are bought new, kept in the original packaging, which is never unsealed, with the belief that "one day" they will be worth more. Ha!

   The only investment that new woodworking tools have is in the investment of the quality of life, not a future bank balance!

   I know some may be horrified at the thought that I use my LN Anniversary bronze #4 1/2. It cost me $400 new from LN. I recognised that its value would jump immediately, probably double. It did. I think the last one sold on eBay for about $1000. My using mine the "value" has likely dropped to $800. That means nothing to me. The "profit" of $400 does not interest me. I hope to use it for 20 years, perhaps more. That works out to a grand capital gain of $20 per year (ignoring inflation, etc, etc ..). If I sold it now I could buy a couple of planes to replace it, but I would be poorer the life experience of using it. Hey, I also use the plane I got from Jim Krenov.

   These are decisions one must make. Take the money and run or enjoy the tool. What do you want to do?

   Regards from Perth

   Derek

    

5. 
   oldusty | Sep 05, 2009 05:40pm | #6

     dlb ,

              To answer your question from my own point of view :

         I like most of us,do appreciate older and old tools and such and have been obtaining them  over my lifetime . O.K. I will say it ,,, I collect tools that I like , some get used and I do have some on display behind glass and hanging on the wall for some .

         In my shop and everyday tool drawers  I use many old tools   . My very best chisels and carving tools are all old. I let my needs dictate the fate of the tool , if I needed to get in a tight curve to form the inside of a coach I'd use my coach makers plane , but honestly I have never had the need ,so I just keep it where I can see it . Should I not have bought it 20 years ago ?

        I have always liked tools and enjoy being surrounded by them in my life even in my home , they are part of me .I think some tools are beautiful almost like an art object if you will .Look at some tools Derek makes , wow , have you seen a Marcou plane ? Now folks can say what they want but, some tools are more then just a tool .

        Now I know some think it wrong to keep my old tools behind glass like a dead mummy but , they can  be put back into service at any time needed .besides I'm not sure I could fit all my tools in my shop .

          regards      dusty, tool collector / user

6. 
   WillGeorge | Sep 07, 2009 04:05am | #7

   My intent was to use the Witherby for production, not collection. Now I have second thoughts.

    

   I have a better thought. If it a collectors item.. USE IT! If it is not a collectors item and it works.. USE IT!

1. 
   noviceneil | Sep 08, 2009 03:58pm | #9

   I agree..I once bought a plane from a fellow in New Zealand that was Way too nice to use...I used it all the time..now it has enough dings and scratches that it's no longer too nice to use..works better that way...

   Neil

7. 
   dlb | Sep 07, 2009 05:05am | #8

   Well, it looks like my Witherby will be seeing service soon. Thanks to all of you who posted a response and helped my realize that tools were made to be used not perused.

   Have a great Labor Day weekend!

   dlb

   .

    

   The undisciplined life is not worth examining.
8. 
   CStanford | Sep 10, 2009 01:45pm | #10

   Unless you are total klutz and completely ineffectual in your shop the furniture you build will have more value (exponentially so) than the tools you use to build it.

   This is how it's supposed to be.

   Use the drawknife.  Use it up.

1. 
   dlb | Sep 10, 2009 02:48pm | #11

   Thanks for the reply.

   You are correct in that tools were make to make things.

   Thanks,

   dlb

   .

    The undisciplined life is not worth examining.

1. 
   CStanford | Sep 11, 2009 01:40am | #12

   I'll leave you with some parting comments- I've never seen a drawknife that could hold a candle to a well made piece of furniture.  You can hang tools on the walls to look at or you can roll heirlooms out of your shop for your family to enjoy now, and treasure when you're gone.

    

    

1. 
   dlb | Sep 11, 2009 02:33am | #13

   You are a wise man!!The undisciplined life is not worth examining.

2. 
   WillGeorge | Sep 11, 2009 08:08am | #15

   I'll leave you with some parting comments- I've never seen a drawknife that could hold a candle to a well made piece of furniture.

    

   And then again there is the user of that tool. I never got the hang of using even a good drawknife~

9. 
   dkellernc | Sep 11, 2009 06:29am | #14

   This is a slightly alternate opinion from someone that both uses handtools in the shop that are worth thousands, and has collector's items that I will never use in the shop.

   All I'll say about this is that there is absolutely no shame in collecting tools and preserving them, nor is there any shame in deciding to use something that's both rare and expensive, with the possible exception of something that is one of a kind where the use is likely to destroy it.  Counter to some of the opinions expressed here, there is no great shame in a tool that's hung on the wall to be appreciated as art, or as a sentimental piece.  This is why I do not use my great grandfather's Stanley smoothing plane, though it has little monetary value. 

   One way to decide whether to use your Witherby drawknife is purely calculational - what will someone (that's a collector) give you for it, and is that enough of a premium to convince you to sell it to him and buy a newer, less expensive and less collectible drawknife?  This, in a way, is what Derek is expressing when he notes that he uses his L-N 4-1/2 Anniversary.  To him, the extra $$ it would bring on the market is not worth what he'd give up by selling it - not being able to use a bronze L-N 4-1/2, because you can't buy one of those outside of paying for an Anniversary.

   This is why I use a relatively rare Norris smoothing plane in the shop that is worth at least a couple of thousand dollars.  I would otherwise not be able to use a Norris gunmetal plane, though it's true that I don't use the original blade in the tool (which would get used up).

1. 
   oldusty | Sep 11, 2009 05:03pm | #17

   Morning DK ,

            Thanks for making me feel not alone in my affliction for tools that get used or not .

          As far as actually using tools or machine tools for that matter  that may be worth thousands of dollars , heck I do it every day.That is what they were made for.

               dusty,user/collector/admirer

1. 
   9619 | Sep 11, 2009 11:03pm | #18

   Dusty,
   I use my car every day. It cost $25,000. Dkellernc uses a $1,000 Norris. Using this comparison, Mr. Keller is a piker. :-)
   Mel
   ps Keller has forgotten more about antique planes than I will ever learn.Measure your output in smiles per board foot. 

10. 
    Toolemera | Sep 11, 2009 09:56am | #16

    First off, I am a huge fan of Witherby products. That said, if the item is in nearly unused, or actually unused condition, it goes on the collection pile. If it has been clearly used and is just another good edge tool, most likely it will get used. A Witherby edge tool will likely hold up to many more years of sharpening and still show tons of good steel.

    Gary

    http://toolemera.com
11. FWW Editor
    mpekovich | Sep 11, 2009 11:40pm | #19

    The greatest honor you can pay to an old tool is to tune it, sharpen it well and use it as it was intended. Far more rare and at greater risk is the knowledge of how to use old tools. Learn to use your tools in the proper manner and pass on that knowledge along with the tools when they are no longer of use to you.

    -Mike

1. 
   dlb | Sep 12, 2009 03:16am | #20

   Thanks, will do.The undisciplined life is not worth examining.

2. 
   CStanford | Sep 12, 2009 04:40pm | #21

   "The greatest honor you can pay to an old tool is to tune it, sharpen it well and use it as it was intended. Far more rare and at greater risk is the knowledge of how to use old tools. [emphasis added] Learn to use your tools in the proper manner and pass on that knowledge along with the tools when they are no longer of use to you."

   Phew, so well and succinctly stated.  Ought to be made a 'sticky' link by Taunton.

1. 
   WillGeorge | Sep 13, 2009 05:42pm | #22

   "The greatest honor you can pay to an old tool is to tune it, sharpen it well and use it as it was intended.

   I have stated to use old tools. Even collector items. (I have none though to ruin!)

   I do wonder, if the tool is a 'real' collectors item, how far does one go with 'tuning it'?

   Limit cleaning? Never change the appearance of the wood and brass parts? If so, what if it is a wooden plane?

   I would think it acceptable to sharpen and flatten the 'working' parts and leave the rest alone.

   Any opinions? As in what really makes a woodworking tool a 'collectors item'? What would make a collectors item no longer that?

   I could be wrong but I think some collectors may not want the item if it was modified in any way. I am also unsure if many 'collectors' are skilled in/at 'using' what they collect.

    

1. 
   dlb | Sep 13, 2009 06:14pm | #23

   "Limit cleaning? Never change the appearance of the wood and brass parts? If so, what if it is a wooden plane?

   I would think it acceptable to sharpen and flatten the 'working' parts and leave the rest alone."

   I believe that if you have acquired an antique and want to refinish/restore/clean it go ahead because ...

   To you it is an antique and hopefully many years from now it will be an antique for your heirs. Why not 'restore' it to a good condition knowing that you will be causing it to last longer and maybe afford more protection than it originally was supplied w/? Now I say this w/ one exception - Queen Anne furniture, but we all have weaknesses.

   dlb

   .

    The undisciplined life is not worth examining.

2. 
   dkellernc | Sep 14, 2009 06:03am | #24

   Will - That depends.  Largely, it depends on how much of the tool's collector value you wish to preserve.

   If it's a relatively common item in uncommonly rare condition, doing just about anything to it other than sharpening the blade will pretty much erase any collector's value.  The more rare the item is, the more alteration a collector will accept, albeit at a reduced price.  An excellent example of this are Marples Ultimatum braces.  The vast majority of these braces passed through the hands of one particular (legendary or infamous, depending on whom you're talking to) British collector and dealer.  He polished the brass on almost all of these braces on a buffing machine, and as a result finding one with a nice patina on the brass and the original scraping marks from the Marples factory is very rare.  The cleaned and buffed examples that are filled with ebony go for about $500 if they are in near perfect condition other than the polished brass.  An uncleaned and untouched example filled with ebony will fetch around $1800, sometimes more depending on when it was made.

   Another example are wooden planes.  These are collected on the basis of who made them - 18th century examples go for large amounts of money.  One recent example was a "yankee" plow made by Cesor Chelor that showed up on e-bay in pretty much untouched condition.  It fetched $8500 at auction close.  I know of one other example of Cesor's work that is a bit of a tragic story - a relatively unsophisticated individual found the plane at a yard sale, and thinking that he'd "improve" the value of it, he carefully sanded the plane to remove the accumulated oxidation and grime that had accumulated since the 1760's when the plane was made, and then varnished it.  The plane was a relatively rare profile, which meant it would've sold for about $5000 in original condition.  It went for $250 at auction.

   None of this really applies to something common in common condition - you're really not going to change the value of a Stanley #4 from e-bay by fixing it up, because it really only has user value anyway.

3. 
   CStanford | Sep 14, 2009 05:34pm | #25

   I want to make sure that you realize I was quoting Mr. Pekovich's post which I think was spot on in all regards.