cleaning the metal of a chisel – questio
alanplanesaw
| Posted in General Discussion on
I have a number of old chisels. I know appearance does not improve performance, BUT I would like to have them shiney, similiar to when they were new.
Using super-fine (3M micron, finishing film, etc.) will do it but only with a lot of elbow grease.
Anyone know of a chemical, or industrial cleaner that will do it?
Thanks,
Alan – planesaw
Replies
Alan,
You can try Navel Jelly found in most hardware & big box stores.
May not give you the "factory-fresh" look you want - but it's a very
inexpensive way to start. Used properly and several applications
will at least get the heavy stuff off.
Bill-
Alan,
I'm sure you've heard of Evaporust which many folks like to use to remove rust from metal. White vinegar will also remove rust but leaves an etching effect on the surface (not sure how deep this etching gets into the metal) but is easily removed with fine sandpaper - think 1,000 grit and higher.
Then again I've used Coke also.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 2/17/2009 7:41 am ET by KiddervilleAcres
Edited 2/17/2009 7:42 am ET by KiddervilleAcres
Bob,
You shouldn't be so free with your admission that you used coke. I'm not sure what doing drugs has to do with shining metal, but I'm sure it helped you really go at it.
Seriously, Alan, ditto on the evaporust suggestion. I'm not sure how it works, it just does.
Wolfman,
This is meant as a compliment but was expecting a response from Ray on that. Right after I clicked on the Post button I thought about editing it to say CocaCola but got sidetrecked with a glueup.
Oh, and I'm a Pepsi fan,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Oh, now you're using glue too? Don't you know what sniffing that stuff will do to your brain? LOL
I thought that Coke line sounded kinda funny whn I read it, I'm sure everyone knows what you meant.
Snorting coke and sniffing glue, probably huffing all those solvents in the shop too.
Now we know what that hammer icon next to his name is for .... it's a warning that the poster is hammered!
................................................
Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.~ Denis Diderot
Wow! I had to leave for the day and this discussion went to pot! :-) Can't leave you kids alone for a minute. I'll have a room ready for you in one of our D & A (drug and alcohol) programs.
Mike -- You are basically right, I am not too much of a fashion nut, clothes-horse, or anything else. But, shiney things sell better than dull things. In my work I have various "uniforms" for the job at hand. Clothes for getting dirty, business casual, coat & tie, and really nice suits that cause some people to think I am a lawyer. Never sure whether they are complimenting me or trying to insult me. Long as they think I am an authority on whyever I am there -- mission accomplished. It is amazing how much appearance affects what people think. It is just too easy sometimes.
The problem/opportunity is that I have a herd (okay a couple of herds) of chisels and need to thin the herd/s. It is that they simply sell quicker and higher if they are shiney. Even woodworkers prefer shiney things to dull things. I do have to admit that if I wind up with two of anything the "collector" personality pops up and I began to see more of the same thing I just critically need. Maybe this one is better than the one I have. Wow, that one is a quarter inch longer than the one I already have. Don't know when I would ever use a 5 inch wide (or a 7/64 inch) chisel, but you never know so maybe I better get that one to. Oh wow, just five more sizes and I'll have a complete set. And on and on and on and on.... (And once I deal with the chisels, then we'll start on handsaws and planes.)
Woodrat and Bob - Yep, I have both naval jelly and evaporust on hand. Rust is not the issue on any of my chisels, thankfully.
Derek - You bet, no wheels, other than when sharpening will touch my chisels. No rounding of edges.
I am thinking that there may be some industrial chemical (that maybe I would have to find someone who uses in manufacturing and talk them into taking my chisels and cleaning them) that I may not have access to, but that will clean off patina, "stains" etc. I would bet there is, I just have to ask the right person.
Thanks for all your suggestions so far.
Alan - planesaw
Edited 2/17/2009 8:34 pm ET by Planesaw
Well, be sure to let us know if you find some miracle solution. Post some before and after pics of your work.
You got it Wolfman.
Alan - planesaw
Alan:
"some people to think I am a lawyer" - My condolences. ;-(
"Never sure whether they are complimenting me or trying to insult me." - The latter, clearly. ;-)
"It is that they simply sell quicker and higher if they are shiney."
Ah . . . Selling them. That 'slpains it. Sir, my faith in you has been fully restored!
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Mike,
I have a couple of attorneys on my board. One of them really helped me get settled in Pennsylvania and our families became good friends. Still are. He and I have very similar faith, values, and ethics. We have traded some great jokes and know that no matter what profession one is in, there are always the bad actors that give that profession a bad name.
Clearly, what little I know of you, including a great lunch, you help to improve the legal reputation.
I should have 'splained my intent of selling shiney things.
Alan - planesaw
Alan:
Are these for e-bay type sale, or in some forum where the potential buyer can actually pick 'em up and kick the tires, as it were? If the latter, I'd say leave 'em "rough" and simply put the best edge you can on 'em. Then let the buyer compare them to a brandy new Stanley -- which everyone knows is top-'o-the-line stuff. (OK, not fair, but still, . . . ) I can hear it now: "Yeah, these babys were made back when they still knew how to make steel! Not from imported Chinese scrap [you can even kinda slur those two words together for added effect] -- real honest-to-goodness virgin forged steel! You just can't get edge steel like this any more." LOL! (May even be some truth to that.)
My best chisel is an old gouge, picked up at a flea market, that looks like carp, but can take an edge like nobody's business. Probably just carbon steel, but man can that sucker move through wood! IMHO, a scarry sharp edge will beat out a shiney shank any day o' the week.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Mike,
The only problem is that you are being logical. The person who is going to buy shiney . . . Well, I could do both - shiney and sharp.
If I don't find the magic potion I think might be out there, well, I'll sharpen 'em and see what sells.
Oh, and Amen! when you said, a scarry sharp edge will beat out a shiney shank any day o' the week. Now, just think what they will sell for if they are both shiney AND sharp!
We'll have to get together for lunch again when I am out your way.
Alan - planesaw
Edited 2/20/2009 7:23 pm ET by Planesaw
Cleaners of Chisels are cautioned that buffing will round edges, which is a Bad Thing.
If you must buff - and clean, shiny steel does have its supporters - then do not use soft buffing wheels. These will destroy nice, clean, sharp arrises. It is better to use a #9-rated deburring wheel. These are hard and can raise a mirror shine. Just take it easy when you get close to a corner or edge.
Regards from Perth
Derek
"BUT I would like to have them shiney, similiar to when they were new. "
Funny, I wouldn'ta pegged you for a fashion nut! ;-)
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
You didn't specifically mention rust, so I'm not sure why the evil of Naval Jelly was offered (can you tell, I don't like the stuff? LOL!). Naval Jelly will not leave a nice appearance behind. If there is rust, heed Bob's recommendation of EvapoRust.
Naval Jelly is just Phosphoric acid with a thickening agent.I have only used the acid alone (30% by weight and soak the tools for an hour or more). Works great but leaves a dark grey coating which is in fact a rust inhibitor. This is sandable but on the tough side.Then you have to cope with the pits :-)Unlike most other strong acids, 30% Phosphoric acid will not attack the metal.On the lighter side, at work when I send somebody to get some in order to derust something - or remove rust stains from tiles - they just ask for "Mr Cefai's favourite acid."
My 2 or 3 experiences with Naval Jelly weren't so good, appearance-wise. I love EvapoRust, but it's not everyone's "cup o' tea." It's not an acid, you can get it on your hands, even splash it in your eye, without huge concern. It's safe on most metals. It leaves a blackish film, which is rinsed and wiped off. A little buffing with #0000 steel wool finishes the process. Reuseable too!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Where on earth did you get the idea that shiny isn't better?
Shine we must!
Jammer,
My friend Mel could wax eloquent and give you an answer that would be out of this world.
However, I do NOT have the mistaken idea that shiney is, or is not, better. Shiney, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. Smooth, on the other hand, is critical, at least for chisels and most other cutting surfaces. Smooth, but not shiney, is highly functional for a chisel. Shiney is not critical to function. Bumpy, rusty, pitted, and other desirable characteristics are counter-productive, less desirable, and lose value.
To keep something shiney to the degree that we fail to woodwork, is a sin for someone who wants to be about making things.
For a tool collector, keeping something shiney has a higher value, and is an end in and of itself.
For those, like me, who often get sidetracked by collecting, and making, tools, shiney becomes like a siren call from what I really want to do -- work wood.
Oh well. Like I said, Mel would do a much better job of weaving and smithing words. He is an accomplished wood and wordworker.
Alan - planesaw
Mo shiny=mo better.
If you have "old" chisels, you will have to flatten the backs to prepare them for a fine edge. I use sandpaper on a granite flat surface to flaten and sharpen my chisels. The sanding to make the backs flat also makes the back shiney. You can do the same (sanding) for the sides, top and side bevels (if the chisels have them) too. The cutting bevel will also become shiney when sharpening it. So, you may not need any of the chemical treatments to bring out the shine you want. It will probably take less than 5 minutes per chisel to get rid of the "rusty" surfaces this way.
If you watch the various 'how do they make.....' programs on cable TV, it seems that the manufacturers are heavily invested in belt sanders to give their products a nice shiny finish before letting the tools loose on unsuspecting users. So, I guess the answer you are looking for is a belt sander and an assortment of belts designed for metal. You will loose a bit of metal in the process, but once the initial 'shine' is put on, then it's up to you to wax all the metal. Factory finish is protected by a quick dip in laquer or similar film coating.
SawdustSteve
Steve,
Yep, I have seen what you are talking about. I am going to look a little longer for that magic (probably illegal now) industrial liquid that I just have to let them soak in for a while and they -- poof -- they are shiney.
Hmmmmm. Guess I could have them chromed!
Alan - planesaw
Try a brass wire wheel. Works great
Muriatic acid will clean steel. One part acid to 10 parts water in a plastic pail. Water first ,then pour acid.The mix may boil for a short time.Wear eye protection, Make sure the acid is added to the water and not vice versa.If you do it backwards the mix might spatter and get on your hands.
Leave the tool in the mix for ten minutes. Remove and wash under running cool water while brushing with a wire brush.When satisfied dry the tool, oil or otherwise keep tool from rusting. Make sure the mix is tightly covered when done, the acid promotes rusting.You can eliminate the wire brushing if the tool looks clean without it.
Citric acid may work, takes longer but safer. I have not used citric acid myself, I will try it if I ever run out of muriatic acid.
mike
Mike,
What does it do? What does the surface look like when you clean it up?
Thank you,
Alan - planesaw
With steel the finish gets shiny. This is a typical pickling cleaner before silver brazing and after brazing it removes flux residue. It removes tarnish and oxides.
mike
I would not recommend a brass wire wheel (or any other metal wire) - you will round over the edges. Shiny with rounded edges? ... well only a newby would buy it.
Sandpaper on a block is my first choice. Careful use of a hard deburring wheel (staying clear of the edges) is permitted. If you have no experience of the latter, then look them up. They are fantastic!
Here is a piece I derusted and shined up today. Not a chisel, but the steel was black. Partly rust and partly whatever. It took a minute to bring up clean steel. This is a brace I am making. The steel section is from a donor Stanley brace. For interest, the wood is Tasmanian Blackwood.
View Image
Regards from Perth
Derek
Edited 2/21/2009 7:30 am ET by derekcohen
All these patent chemicals sound very enticing but might prove difficult to find outside the US of A, so i'll never be able to use most of them.
It seems that no one has suggested electrolytic rust removal. I use it for removing rust from my flea market finds. It's cheap, non-corrosive, doesn't round edges and is also pretty neutral as far as the environment goes.
Cheers from Denmark! Jerome
Edited 2/22/2009 1:02 pm ET by Ieronymus
Me again.... (SawdustSteve)... I forgot another method you can try. No chemicals are involved, and is SHOULD be available world-wide. I used to purchase a BRIGHTBOY wheel. It is ####half inch wide medium hard rubber wheel with an abrasive in it. Sort of like a super sized typewriter eraser wheel.
It went on a standard 1/2" arbor and you used it like a wire wheel or grinding wheel, but because of its composition, it did not round off corners like a wire wheel, or remove lots of metal like a grinding wheel.
SawdustSteve Long Island, NY
Haven't heard of such a device in a wheel shape. Interesting concept.
Thanks,
Alan - planesaw
Steve,
WHERE DID YOU GET THAT???
I used to have one years ago, made by Carborundum Universal I think and have been wanting one like crazy . It came to grief when a certain Bench Dog spied it on a low shelf and chomped it-he was still a pup so I had to excuse him.
Now that I have a surface grinder I could fully use those rubber wheels but can't find any here.Philip Marcou
Hi Phillip.... I must have that wheel for 25+ years and don't remember where I got it. If you google BRIGHTBOY you will get several leads. The ones shown at most websites are small pieces and look like they will fit a Dremel unit. If I remember correctly, I was doing some Art-Metal work, so perhaps looking at websites (catalogs) for Jewelry or Metal Sculpture might lead you to a good source. I'm sure Granger would not not have it, but perhaps McMaster will.
SawdustSteve
Philip,Check this out, it may be what you're interested in:http://www.cratex.com/rublgwhl.htmThey also have various forms of the material other than wheels.Cliff Ober
Correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t the only edge we should be concerned with is the cutting edge? All other edges should be rounded so they do not wreak havoc with our hands. And don’t we normally sharpen the cutting edge last of all?
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If you round the edges of the back of the chisel you're going to have an interesting time working the corners of a mortise.
You are correct.
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The difference is that I clean up the chisels before I work on the cutting edges.
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Thanks Cliff.
I had actually tried to contact Cratex some time ago about the pencil item which I want for engine turning decoration. Both Australia and USA did not even acknowledge receipt of my enquiry. When that happens it puts me off, and I just put it out of my mind.
I will see about Brightboy-sounds good.Philip Marcou
Cratex is not now, and never has been a retail level business.Even if you are a business, you only get answered if you have done business with them before, either as a supplier or as a distributor, and then new suppliers have a hard row to hoe.It's not surprising that they didn't answer you, particularly if your "contact" attempt was via email.They have retail outlets everywhere, in many different industries, who will all be more than happy to talk with you.
Ace Hardware sells a product called T-11. I don't know how it works, but it does remove rust without a sweat.
I use it all the time on everything. Clean, spray it on and wait a few minutes, then wipe it off. If you need to, use a green or gray abrasive pad and wipe. if very heavy rust, re-spray and repeat use of abrasive.
Good luck.
Try the rust and stain remover made by the folks that make Boeshield. It is not real cheap but it works for me. Use the Boeshield to protect the metal after cleaning. Sold at several places but Woodcraft comes to this old mind first. Good luck.
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