I just finished watching all 3 of the DVD’s from Don McConnell and Larry Williams from Clark and Williams, and I just want to say how impressed I am. They are great dvd’s.
I originally purchased them because I figured I would learn enough to be able to tune up some of my sidebead planes that aren’t functioning well. Instead, I came away with the knowledge and understanding that I am going to start making a set of hollows and rounds. Larry’s dvd on making side escapement planes has got to be the most comprehensive source of imformation on the subject available today, at least in my searching.
I remember a discussion not too long ago about someone making their own H & R’s, but as usual, the search function here doesn’t work for me. If anyone can find it, I’d sure appreciate it.
Since I have a shed full of cherry and maple, I’d love to hear thoughts on planes made from either of these species instead of beech. I know qs beech is the wood of choice for C & W, but would cherry be sufficient, or would it wear too quickly?
I also would like to hear what type of grinder (specifically brand, etc…) would be good to get for grinding the profiles, as well as grinding the bevels, on the blades before heat treating.
I hope this becomes a very good discussion, as I am pretty pumped up about getting started making a half set of hollows and rounds. So, let’s get it started!
Larry, feel free to jump in here all you’d like!! I plan on picking your brain for all the information I can get, that you are willing to part with.
Jeff
Replies
Jeff ,
Does one go to Clark and Williams to purchase these DVDs or to say Highland Woodworking etc. ?
I asked to be e-mailed when these became available but have not heard back yet.
roc
Give me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
They just became available. I believe they became available for the first time Monday. You can purchase them direct from Clark and Williams, or I also believe they are available at Lie Nielsen's website, as well.
I highly recommend all three, as they all tie in very well together. I just finished watching the "making side escapement planes" dvd for the 2nd time. Truly insightful. I'm ordering irons and floats from Lie Nielsen this week.
Just my opinion, but given the fact that C & W is quite backlogged, it might behoove you to give another call to order them. Larry actually called me two weeks ago to let me know that they were having slight production delays, but they were shipped out exactly when he told me they would be. Well worth the wait, in my opinion.
Enjoy!
Jeff
Edit 4/29/09- I meant to say that Don's latest DVD just became available. The other two were already available.
Edited 4/27/2009 1:55 pm ET by JeffHeath
Edited 4/29/2009 2:30 pm ET by JeffHeath
Jeff,Thank you for info.>rediculously backloggedMaybe i should go to work for Clark and Williams. Sounds like job security. It would be nice to turn out work that people appreciate as much as they do Clark and Williams planes.PS: the Fundamentals of Inlay: Stringing, Line & Berry by Steve Latta DVD at LIE-NIELSEN site looks good to me as well. I always enjoy his articles here in FWWrocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Edited 4/26/2009 8:45 pm by roc
Jeff,
Thanks for you kind words about the DVD's, and we're very glad you found them worthwhile. Either quarter-sawn cherry or maple will work for making your own hollows & rounds, so I would encourage you to use what you have on hand. The cherry may be a little soft for heavy usage, but would likely serve quite well through your lifetime and beyond. The maple might hold up a little better in heavy usage, but is harder to work with while making the planes.
Roc - sorry if we told you we would get back to you then dropped the ball. Larry and I are in Berea KY, right now, getting ready to start a class at Kelly Mehler's, but we would happy to get back to you on our return to Eureka Springs, in a week or so, if you would like to contact us through our website. Alternatively, as Jeff has said, they are available directly from Lie-Nielsen.
Don McConnell
Eureka Springs, AR
> available directly from Lie-NielsenHey that's OK. Maybe I made an error in sending my e address. I just saw one DVD at LN but will look for more as time goes by.Thanks for getting them finished.rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Don,
Thanks for replying. I spent my free time this weekend watching the dvd's, and was very intrigued, especially watching you make that cornice molding. I was inspired. Now I have to get going with the hollows and rounds, and hope to get good enough to move on to those left and right handed sniped bill planes for sinking the quirks, and getting those rabbets started.
If you don't mind asking, what other woods have good characteristics for boxing? Your dvd mentions persimmon, but I've never seen that available in my travels. Are there other species that also work well?
Thanks again for a great source of information.
Jeff
I made a half set of hollows and rounds. I used cherry. Clark & Williams now sell beech blanks (I think). I made 18 planes. I probably used a total of 21 plane blanks and 24 wedges after all the mistakes.
As far as grinding goes: I had a difficult time finding a wheel that I could use for the profiles. After a little reasearch I spoke with Joel at TFWW. I urged him to stock some thin Norton grinding wheels for grinding the hollows for this specific reason. Nobody sells them. He does now. Unfortunately for me, they are 6" diameter with a smaller arbor than my grinder permits so I haven't been able to try them. (additionally, he gave credit to Larry for the suggestion on his website...ha ha ha.)
Regardless, I used what I think is considered a cut-off wheel with a 1/16" width that I ordered through Fastenal and got for something like $12. It worked, but the wheel was pretty difficult to profile I never really got rid of enough of the squareness across the width to work on the smallest two hollows. They were done mostly with stones.
I'd be happy to answer any questions that arise. I posted the few questions that I had here and Larry responded over knots within 24 hours each time.
The one suggestion I remember having was to make sure that the wedge inserted into the mortise is the approximate final depth before bedding the iron. My wedges were protruding from the bottom of the planes slightly while I was working on the bed. I ultimately had to rebed them after making the wedges their final length. I should have known better...No representation without taxation
Don
I just got your second DVD last week. I had been waiting for it for a while. Excellent.
I am interested in making mouldings, not planes. I have an old half set of H&Rs. Good luck at Kelly's school this week. Have fun.
I just saw a quote that makes a nice philosophy for life. It is great, except that it doesn't say anything about making mouldings.
Mel
Life is short.
Break the rules.
Forgive quickly.
Kiss slowly.Love truly.
Laugh uncontrollably.
And never regret anything that made you smile. Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Just for the record: I don't think that bench planes from C&W are ridiculously back-logged. I believe that this reputation is in regards to the side escapement planes, which are being discussed here.
Matt, only a very satisfied customerNo representation without taxation
Matt
Thanks for responding. I was thinking of using a cutoff wheel on my angle grinder as a last resort, but wanted to hear what others though. I will definately check out TFWW for the grinding wheel you mentioned, and see if it fits my ancient bench grinder.
When you heat treated and tempered your irons, did you make the small "forge" that Larry shows in the dvd. If so, how did your irons turn out. I've done quite a bit of welding over the years, but never, ever tried to heat treat and temper a cutting tool. The dvd makes it seem pretty straight forward, and the picture of the heated iron pooling when ready was quite easy to recognize on the dvd. I hope it's that easy in real life, lol! Also, what kind of oil did you use, and how hot did you preheat it before use. I've got an old propane camping stove that would be perfect for this. I will also use my acetylene torch for the heat treating, unless told otherwise.
Thanks for any info you can lend. I'm pretty excited about this. I haven't had fun in the shop for quite a while, and this is definately peaking my interest.
For the record, when I checked on back logs with Larry, it was regarding side escapement planes. I wanted some sidebeads, as well as a moving fillester, and was surprised (but happy for C & W) when told the backlog was out over a year. I never asked about bench planes, so I want that to be clear. Larry has been extremely helpful over the phone, and quite pleasant to talk to, too. I wish them the best of luck catching up, and hope they never do! I remember not too long ago when I was backlogged about a year, and it was a good feeling, albeit a wee bit stressful. Now, I wish I had the work!
Jeff
PS I went back and re-read my post to roc regarding the backlog issue, and didn't like the way I sounded, either. I changed it to reflect that. Thanks for the 'heads up'. Working backlogs are a good thing, imho. We've all gotta eat, and in this economy, it's getting tougher.
Edited 4/27/2009 1:57 pm ET by JeffHeath
Matt,
I just went back and reviewed your posting of your half set. Awesome work! Did you ever get around to making your fillester, snipe bill or rabbeting planes? Those will be next on my list.
Jeff
I also went back and read my post. I knew I would be answering this question. No, I haven't made any of them. I was able to buy a rabbet plane from Clark & Williams soon after I finished those planes. (It's Awesome!) I never used one before and thought that it would be difficult without a fence or depth stop. It's easy to use and I haven't had a use for a fillester at this point. I will make the snipes bills soon, I promise. It's just these chairs...
In one of my conversations with Larry he had mentioned that Lie Nielsen was considering floats for skewed irons and irons with a centered tang. They haven't put them up for sale on their site yet and it's been over a year since that conversation. I do periodically check, to no avail. I often wonder if they're selling any of these irons...No representation without taxation
Thanks for your responses. I went through my 8/4 and 6/4 cherry stock today, and pulled out all the timber I need for QS cherry blanks. I'm ordering the floats, irons, and a file or two from LN tonight, as well as that 1/10" mortising chisel. At present, I don't have a chisel that I can grind down to that thickness, so I might as well add one to the set I already have.
Jeff
These are the exact same questions I had after the video. I used peanut oil. I think Larry had said that it should be warm to the touch. You aren't heating it up to any extreme, not even hot. I just turned the torch on it for a 10-15 seconds before each iron.
The heat treating was pretty much a non event. I was pretty intimidated going in. I worked outside on my driveway using those BBQ ceramics that were recommended. I would suggest working around dusk or even in the dark, it's pretty obvious then. The darker it got outside the more certain I was of my results. When I finished it was completely dark out. I have never done anything along these lines before so your experience is more than mine was.
The irons have held an edge so far. I haven't used them significantly because most of my time has been working on chairs. They've held the edge fine to this point. But I've only used them enough to know that there's not a significant problem.
Regarding the back-log, I was recently surprised to learn that most of the bench planes weren't backlogged to the same extent. I was of the impression that they were. I just wanted to throw it out there for anybody reading because I know that I was under the same impression. It wasn't meant as a critique.No representation without taxation
Matt,
In your original thread, you mentioned 3 floats that you purchased. Did you find those to be sufficient, or did you add an addition pull when you had a push, etc....I wish to spend the money on only the floats that are necessary to make these planes now. After I've gained experience, and desire to move on to other planes, I'll add them later as needed.
I had the opportunity to use them for joinery in Jeff Miller's shop (LN was there for a show) and found them quite impressive. Still, at $60 a pop, I'd prefer to just get the one's that I need right now.
Thanks again.....and again......and.....
Jeff
Jeff et al,We use persimmon because it has the characteristics we were looking for and is available locally. At least for now. We've had some persimmon boxed planes in use at Colonial Williamsburg for a some time, now, and it seems to be holding up well for them. (And their usage puts the planes to a real test.) Our understanding is that they have experimented with some imported exotics touted as good substitutes for boxwood, and have not found them to be satisfactory.Which is a kind of long-winded way of saying that I'm not sure what to suggest, outside of persimmon. Dogwood may be suitable, if you can find large enough pieces. As may hop hornbeam. But, we haven't tried these for boxing, so I'm not speaking from experience with them in this capacity. Possibly others may have some suggestions?Larry is following this discussion with a good deal of interest, but can't respond right now as he seems unable to login from this "remote" location. If the situation warrants when we get back home, he may well have something to say then as he only posts under his own name.Don McConnell
Eureka Springs, AR
Don
Thanks for the answer regarding boxing. I am going to finish my H & R's before moving on to a plane requiring boxing, so I have some time to find a source for persimmon. I have 4 sidebead planes, 2 of which are worthless. The other purpose for getting the dvd's was to learn how to tune them up. These 2 need quite a bit of tuning, including new boxing. Some previous owner had replaced the original boxing with new boxwood on both planes, but it was done poorly. Instead of 2 full length pieces, it's done in sections, and they are horribly done. My goal is to restore these two planes if I can, and repair the boxing using your recommendation.
Thanks again to you and Larry for a great reference resource, and participating in this discussion. I know too many business owners that aren't too willing to part with the favorite house recipe (so to speak), and I think it's great that you and Larry are sharing your knowledge. I hope it leads to a long lived revival of these great tools.
Jeff
"Since I have a shed full of cherry and maple, I'd love to hear thoughts on planes made from either of these species instead of beech. I know qs beech is the wood of choice for C & W, but would cherry be sufficient, or would it wear too quickly?"
I certainly cannot comment more authoritatively than either Don or Larry in this regard, but I can mention that there are many examples of American craftsman-made planes on the antiques market that are made of cherry or maple. Obviously, beech comprises the vast majority of the antique planes on the market, because they were the wood of choice of the big 19th century factories that churned out hundreds of thousands of planes. For craftsman-made planes, though, one finds maple and cherry often. Occasionally, one finds cuban mahogany, and exotics like Brazilian rosewood, ebony, boxwood, and lignum vitae.
I have never seen a craftsman-made antique of walnut (though they may exist, but are very rare).
From the standpoint of boxing - again, Don and Larry know more than any other people alive today how different species perform in a new plane, but I'll note that lignum vitae is found very often as boxing on 19th century molding planes. And while it's got to be a lot more expensive than persimmon, it's also readily available, particularly now (someone either found a huge stash in the Carribean, or cut down a forest - most of the exotic wood dealers have some of it).
Well, I've already made the decision to use cherry for these planes. I pulled out some nice, wide boards with plenty of q-sawn stock in them yesterday that are from the same tree, so the color will match for the set. I also have seen quite a few craftsman- made hand planes in cherry, and considering that I'll be the only person using them, and certainly not every day, I'm sure they'll be just fine. Don also commented that cherry is a fine choice, as well.
Most of the furniture I build is made from cherry, so its only fitting that the planes are cherry as well......right?
Once I improve my skills at making these, I'll try my hand at a bench plane or two, as well. We'll have to see how it goes. I'm looking forward to the challenge.
Jeff
"Once I improve my skills at making these, I'll try my hand at a bench plane or two, as well. We'll have to see how it goes. I'm looking forward to the challenge."
As a (very) casual maker of traditional wooden planes, my comment is that you might choose to make a smoother or a jack plane first. It gives you practice on using floats to tune the wedge abutments and bedding the iron and fine-tuning the mouth on a bigger plane that's a lot easier to access than a side-escapement, where everything's really tight, and a very slight mess-up with a chisel or float makes a much bigger difference than on a bench plane (eespecially a jack, where the mouth opening isn't as critical).
Thanks for the advise. I'll probably just jump right in the deep end. I've got plenty of qsawn wood around, and consider myself to be pretty good with a chisel and saw. With a little practice, fitting the wedge should be not too much different than chair joinery (m & t), which I have plenty of experience with. I plan on having some fun with this, and a laugh or two along the way. I'll share my experiences as I go.
Jeff
Edited 4/29/2009 11:04 am ET by JeffHeath
I used 4 floats total. A push side float. A pull side cheek float. and the two edge floats. I wished that I had a pull edge float for doing the toe side of the mortise but LN doesn't make them and it wasn't worth my time. I had a moderately superficial level of tear out while cutting up hill, into the grain with a push edge float on the front of the mortise. You could easily get by without one of the edge floats if you were only doing 2-5 consecutive pairs. I personally don't remember having any use for the others.
The mouths on my planes are wider than ideal. The reason is because I used a 1/8th chisel and initially cut the mouth to a wide 1/8th and maybe 3/16th. Beware of making this mistake.
No representation without taxation
Edited 4/27/2009 10:49 pm ET by MattInPA
Edited 4/28/2009 9:13 am ET by MattInPA
Matt
Last question for a while. After heat treating the irons, Larry stated to put them in the oven at 375°, but he didn't say how long. How long did you leave the irons in the oven?
Thanks again, and thanks again for the tip on the mouth. I'll be using the 1/10" chisel he recommends in the dvd.
Jeff
15 minutes, I thinkNo representation without taxation
Jeff,
You may be thinking about the set of H&R's that MATTINPA built. Find his post here:
http://forums.taunton.com/n/main.asp?webtag=fw-knots&msg=41420.1&find=Search
Matt used QS cherry.
Regards,
-Chuck
Chuck
Thanks for the link. I don't know why, but on my computer system the search function doesn't work at all.
Jeff
Jeff,
Thanks for starting what could be the most valuable thread ever to hit Knots. I now have both of Don's DVDs on making mouldings. I thought was the first. Mine second one arrived last week. I have been anticipating it for months. Both are excellent.
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel
I don't know if it is the most valuable thread, but it is definately of great interest to me. I have a moulding machine (williams and hussey). I have 7 different profiles for crown moulding, in a few different sizes. I'm sick and tired of using the same crown on every piece I build. When I only need 10 or 15 feet of moulding, it's a pain in the arse to set up the moulder machine, just take 30 seconds to run a moulding through.
After watching Don's dvd's, I feel like I've got an alternative to making some different shaped mouldings without having to spend $200 to $300 on knife grinding each time I want something different.
Oh, and most important of all, at least to me, is the lack of dust flying around the shop. The lungs aren't what they used to be, and I am enjoying dust free woodworking more and more these days.
I'm awaiting the arrival of some floats and irons. Once I get these planes going, I'll be able to report back what I've learned in the process. Hopefully others will be inspired to make their own planes, which I think is at least part of the motivation for Larry and Don to make these dvd's. The woodworking community would definately benefit from a few new players making these planes correctly, as Larry and Don have been doing for a long time.
Jeff
Jeff,
You are making some H&Rs. I bought a half set. We are both interested in using them, no matter who made them. My interest is in carving mouldings, so I need some specific shapes and sizes. The only way I can get them is to make em. Like you, I am getting away from dust -- not completely.
Everything in moderation except moderation itself! (which gets quite philosophical after you think about it for a while.)The reason that I think this thread will become important over time is that it is REVOLUTIONARY. Don came up with some research on snipes bill planes. The whole thing of using H&Rs is not very common. I can't find much info on it. So we'll have to depend on guys like Don, and Larry, and do it ourselves. THIS IS EXCITING. I can't find anything else exciting on Knots, just trivia and wordplay, for the most part. This is real meat that you got started. Actually, I got it going with Larry a number of months ago, and now you have brought it up again. We will keep it going, and learn from each other and the small group of people interested in such stuff.Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
I do have one suggestion. I thought about it after I was able to do it so I can't comment on how well it works. I think that it will take a bunch of the skill out of getting the exact shape of the iron vs. the bed, which is a good thing. Maybe Larry or Don will chime in if I'm missing something. (have I built this up adequately yet?)
After I shaped the iron to the scribe line, ground it and put the bevel on the iron I would have to go back and fine tune the shape. This is before heat treating the iron, of course. Put Teflon tape around each end of a chainsaw file (see picture) and run it back and forth over the the plane's bed while filing the shape of the iron. The iron has to be protruding slightly. The tape prevents the bed from being filed and scratched and should leave an iron with a very proper shape. If the flat created is small enough (ie your original grinding was close) you can go straight to heat treating and then the stones.
What do people think?
I'd imagine that would be something to definately try. In the dvd, Larry goes back to machinists marking fluid and re-scribing the profile. I wonder if your method might save some time. I guess it depends on how thick the teflon tape is, and if it creates an iron that takes too agressive of a cut.
Thanks for posting the idea. I, too, wonder what the experts think.
Jeff
I thought about it after I had hardened the irons. I tried to do it then but it didn't work on the iron. However, it didn't affect the sole of the plane either. I think it will work and I think it will be much more accurate than what I did. There's a pretty significant skill involved in doing that accurately in a timely fashion. I would not be able to turn a profit shaping the irons of complex moulders.
No representation without taxation
Matt,
The tool & die makers approach would be to buy a grinding wheel and put the shape in the wheel. If you are ever in a place that maintains dies, note the plethora of shaped wheels on the wall in the grinding area - one for each shaped detail in the dies they maintain.I have never considered any other way of making or maintaining a set of h&r's. The wheels are cheap compared to the labor of any other way of creating the shapes.Mike
That's actually a pretty neat idea, though if I were going to make a bunch of sets of H&Rs, I think I'd set up a template grinder to do the job quickly and efficiently (at least the rough grinding). Your idea is a good intermediate between doing it solely by eye and setting up a machine to do it.
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