I just purchased a set of Narvex chisels based on a FWW recommendation. I spent a considerable amount of time putting a razor sharp edge on these and put them to work cutting dovetails in soft maple.
I’ve cut maybe 100 dovetails using five of the six sized in the box. The tips don’t look so sharp anymore and need to be resharpen or get a bigger hammer.
I had expected these to stay sharp a little longer; are my expectations too high? I’m new using chisels in this capacity.
Replies
In between the sharpenings like the one you apprently did - i.e., full on - multi-step - multi-grit - time consuming - etc., you only need do what's called honing. Honing is a touching up with the last grit or two (or maybe just some compound on a strop). Honing after 100 sets of dovetails, even in a soft wood, would not be uncommon for average quality chisels.
Your expectations may well be too high. The Narex chisels are $10 chisels. They may be great $10 chisels, but they're still $10 chisels.
Hi Ron,
I have these same chisels, and I give them a hone every 50 inches of dovetails or so. This is with red oak. So your experience sounds reasonable.
Best,
---Pedro
100 dovetails? I would suggest honing - even a couple swipes - after as "few" as 30 or so, with any good chisels. Can't beat razor sharp.
I use at least two sets of chisels in the shop. One for rough work and another for fine paring work. That way I do not have to sharpen so much. It also allows my chisels to last longer.
Ron,
I wouldn't expect any chisel to hold it's edge for that long, unless it has a carbide edge. If i were to spend all day chopping dovetails, I would probably stop once or twice to hone the edge to keep it razor sharp. Perhaps more for self-assurance than necessity. It would also give me a break.
Chris @ www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Ron,
You sharpen your own chisels????
I have my people come over twice a week, sharpen chisels, clean blades, do dovetailing, M&T joints, raising panels, do minor Chippendale carving on the knees and legs of relevant furniture, and other minor details. This leaves me free to do more important things, like reading messages on Knots. :-)
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Always the clever one...Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Chris,
I probably hone more often than I need to.
It it a nice change of pace from woodworking or from carving, and it doesn't take long at all. The yin and yang of woodworking. Since it doesn't take long and isnt really a chore, I don't think much about it. To me, honing is like breathing. You don't really think about it. You just do it, and get on with life. There are so many interesting things to spend the "thinking cycles" on - new aspects of carving, joinery and finishing that are not part of my bag of tricks yet.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
It sounds like you have settled into retirement quite nicely :)
Or, you're trying to set the model for the woodworker in the 21st century.
Regards,
-Chuck
Chuck,Yup, retirement is very good, thank you. I would like to become a "gentleman woodworker" as so many great Americans were "gentleman farmers". It is very nice not having to worry about selling my woodwork. Hope you are having fun too.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel, I have similar objectives, but I'm trying to arrange to train the Swedish Bikini Team to handle those trivial tasks. Unfortunately, they have yet to respond to my RFP. ;-)
Ralph,
Wow, you remember the Swedish Bikini Team! That's been a while.
It is good to have dreams. Maybe someday, the SBT will show up on my doorstep, on a day when my wife isn't home.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Beautiful Swedish women in bikinis are difficult to forget. I suppose I might have to settle for a group of hot, Eastern-European fashion models. ;-)
Ralph,
Whether Swedish or Middle Eastern, the important thing is that they must know how to sharpen. :-)
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel YOU lied to us!
YOU were Marketing for NASA! NOT a project Manager!
How have you sharpened them? The angle of the bevel can make a big difference in durability of the edge. Many bench chisels come with a 22.5 degree bevel. This would be great for paring but the edge won't stand up with some steels. A 35 degree secondary bevel is often recommended for hardwoods, 30 for softwoods.
I don't think you can consistently say you can get X numbers of cuts on a sharpening. There are too many other factors, not the least of which is the hardness of one piece of lumber compared to others. I make a series of close kerfs in the waste area, like a comb. I don't have to hammer the chisel much, just push it and the leaves come right out. I'm also a fan of a flat leather strop, charged with a metal polish. A few strokes will bring the edge back to scary several times before having to go back to a stone.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
I sharpened them to the factory angle, if that's 22.5 degrees then that's what I'm using.
I've used chisels before but, the dovetail application is more serious that the other chiseling I have done so I'm a learning curve with respect to bevel degrees and the amount of material to remove with each cut. I have been chopping and paring some fairly large pieces of wood. Given that, the thought has crossed my mind that I may be a little hard on the chisel.
I hones five chisels last night in about 30 minute; 1000, 4000, 8000 and green polishing compound. I held the same 22.5 bevel. I'm using a Veritas honing guide that has an option for two secondary micro bevels. I'll do a secondary next time I hone to see if it will make a difference. I'm also going to take your que and cut down on the amount of material I shave off with each cut. Thanks.
Edited 11/19/2008 10:13 am ET by RonT
Based on my experience, getting 100 dovetails out of chisels before sharpening is needed is incredible - as in incredible durability. Maple is very, very, VERY hard compared to most other domestic woods commonly used for cabinet making; I re-hone my chisels after every 5 dovetails in this wood, not 50! Of course, "rehoning" in my jargon means 3 swipes on a leather strop, so it's extremely quick, and I don't tolerate crushed end-grain that comes from a mallet and a dull chisel, so our standards for "sharp enough" may well be different.
That said, I think you'll find that your precision and speed when paring/chopping will improve dramatically be re-honing your chisels more often than your post noted.
I have revisited my count and it's more like 25 pair of dovetails. I am going to adjust my technique and remove less material to avoid crushed end grain as well as hone more often. I'm using soft maple which I don't think is as hard as other hardwoods.
Do you use a polishing compound on your strop? I'm using the green compound on a block of wood; would that serve the same purpose for intermediate honing?
Edited 11/19/2008 11:07 am ET by RonT
Ron,
Now that I think about it, I cut all the dovetails for my six 1-1/2" tall workbench drawers without sharpening my chisels. Each corner has two tails and the drawers are made of western maple. I also cut three more 2-1/4" tall drawers with three tails before touching up my Irwin Blue Chips. Not because I was crushing fibers, but because they felt dull to me.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
I make a lot of hand dovetails in either red oak or maple, and I generally touch up the edges after every drawer. I only take a few swipes on an extra fine diamond sharpening plate, and hone only a micro bevel.
I need to do a major rebevel only rarely. I do use a guide to do such bevel surgery on chisels, plane blades, etc., but only hand hone otherwise. It only takes a minute or less to rehone after each drawer.
When using hardwood, I usually trim the waste to within about 1/16" of the line with a coping saw, and take only two 1/32" cuts to hit the line, cuting halfway through from each side.
FWIW, I use some el cheapo butt chisels from Woodcraft for dovetailing. (Never saw "nice" butt chisels.) IMHO, you can work far more accurately and easily with shorter chisels on work like this. I always found myself holding longer chisels way down near the blade, and striking 8" away from where I was holding the chisel did not seem like the best plan. Think about it -- what other tool do you hold so far away from the business end to use it? A pencil? Nope. A paint brush? Nope. You get the point. Also, it gets pretty tiring on the ol' fingers after an hour or so of banging away while trying to control a long, relatively heavy, chisel by holding on the the last 1/2" or so.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
"I'm using soft maple which I don't think is as hard as other hardwoods.
Do you use a polishing compound on your strop? I'm using the green compound on a block of wood; would that serve the same purpose for intermediate honing?"
Trust me on this one - there is nothing "soft" about soft maple - it's just a bit softer than the harder-than-granite hard maple variety. It's true that it's a bit easier to work with than dry hickory, persimmon, or some fruitwoods, but it's way, way harder than walnut, cherry, mahogany, or any of the common secondary woods like pine, cypress, poplar, etc... There's a great reason why end-grain butcher blocks are made almost exclusively of maple in the US.
My strop is a 12" X 2" piece of oiled saddle leather obtained from the scrap box at the local Tandy leather store. It's glued smooth-side down to a length of mahogany scrap chosen for straight grain and carefully flattened with a hand plane before I glued the leather to it. I first charged the leather with the lithium-grease based honing compound that came with my Tormek, but decided some time ago that was too messy, and switched to a dry, chalk-like red honing compound.
Your set-up will certainly work, though I'd suggest trying out a piece of belt leather or something similar glued down to a wooden or MDF substrate. There's for/against views on this, but I like the slight flex in the leather as the chisel/gouge passes down the length. The object here is speed, and that flex allows me to be slightly sloppy about the angle I hold the chisel at, as well as how square the bevel is to the face of the strop.
DK,I too have been stropping on a piece of leather held over a flat surface using the Tormek paste. However, you are right about the messy aspect of the Tormek goo (I am a bloke who has never waterstoned because of the associated goo) so I'll be giving your dry red stuff a go.Do you have a trade name or some other technical description of the stuff?Lataxe
Lataxe,
You know, Joel over at Tools for Working Wood, says you should strop on horse hide, and you should not put any honing compound on it.
Write to him, and get his take on things. He's a knowledgeable guy.MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel
I have two of Joel's horse butt strops. Both are glued smooth side up to hardwood. One is used with green rouge that is diluted/smoothed with a little baby oil (mineral oil). The other is used plain.
The rouged one gets most use. It can refresh an edge rapidly. It is not messy.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Derek,
Thanks for the info on the two strops.I went to an estate sale a few weeks ago. I bought a box of old barber's supplies. THere were three very nice strops in there. I drooled when I saw them. You know the plan. I'll glue two to boards, smooth side up, and use em like you do. Thanks,
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Razor (barber) strops are readily available in a number of places and usually are cheap. Do a search on the web or even in Ebay. I have a vintage one that I paid $20.00 for and it was already broken in and needed no compound. Does a beautiful job as a final hone for a knife, or if held flat, for chisels or plane blades.
I agree with Derek's assessment of TFWW's horse hide leather. Bought one more than several years ago, and it is what I use most often, with it laid flat on a piece of granite countertop. I usethe smooth side charged with TFWW green compound and to make the compound stick, I very lightly coated the strop with a dab or two of Vaseline that I worked into the surface and then the compound--pretty much the same as using mineral oil.
T.Z.
Tony,
So given your experience with nice old barber strops, and with Joel's horsehide, what do you think of my plan to glue the old strops, which are in great shape to two pieces of flat wood, and put honing compound on one and leave the other "au natural". Do you think the Joel's horsehide would be that much better?MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
I think the barber strops would work fine, if fastened down.
Would it be the equivalent of TFWW's horse hide strop? That's anyone's guess, but I don't see how one or the other (Joel's or the barber strop) could be that much superior to the other. Personally, I like the horse hide strop and I like having the barber strop hanging from the bench!
T.Z.
Tony,
Glad to hear it.
I will glue the barber strops down and give them a try.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Do you think the Joel's horsehide would be that much better?
Hi Mel
I'm writing from work so I cannot give you dimensions. The TFWW strop is a decent length but still shorter than a barber's strop. I have one of the latter also glued to hardwood (much to Charlie's dismay), and these hang on a hook under my bench top. I haul them out as needed. Works for me.
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The barber strop is as hard as the Horse Butt strop - it is probably also horse butt leather. It seemed to have a more obviously grain direction than the TFWW ones. Also I would say that it appears less susceptible to damage when you carelessly strop with out making sure that the blade is absolutely flat.
Having said those implied negatives about the TFWW strop, I must add that it is first class leather and that I bought the second one well after the first.
The reason I have mine glued to hardwood is that this minimises dubbing. The leather otherwise curls slightly. I know that many just hold the strop on a flat surface and use both sides. However I could see the blade dubbing. Note that this leather is very hard and has very little give. In my opinion it does have an advantage over hardwood (that is used as a strop) since the latter does not hold the rouge as well. I also prefer the feel from a (softer) leather strop.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Edited 11/21/2008 12:09 am ET by derekcohen
Derek,
Thanks for the info on the barber strops. I figured that they'd work pretty good because of their length and hardness. My middle kid was in Boy Scouts and had a lot of run with leatherwork. So I still have a bagfull of leather. I made a few 18" long strops (smooth side up, glued to wood). I use one and gave the others to friends. Folks like the long strops.I never took you as saying anything negative about TFWW's horsehide. I was the one who suggested another poster go there and ask Joel some questions. At Woodcraft, most of the sharpening questions get shunted to me, when I am there. (Can you believe that?) I take the folks back to the shop and give them a lesson which is taken directly from Joel's website, and then I write the website down for them, and recommend they bookmark it. I have long recommended it here on Knots. It is well written and has good photos. Thanks for relating your experience.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Is it necessary to remove the hide from the horse before stropping the chisel?
Pedro,I just apply the honing compound to my left forearm. It works just fine if you move the blade in a direction away from the sharp edge.I just answered a message to Derek. I told him about the old barber strops I just bought. My plan is to glue em to flat pieces of wood and turn them into strops, one with honing compound and one without.I didn't tell Derek that one of the strops was signed by the barber. I can almost make out the name "Sweeney Todd". There is blood on the strop. :-)MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Lataxe - The stuff I use is called "Herb's Yellowstone for a Magic Edge". Despite the name, it's a light pinkish-red material, with about the consistency of chalk.
Here's the address stuff on the flyer that came in the box:
Herb Dunkle, 1041 Utterback Store Road, Great Falls, VA 22066.
1-703-450-5985.
It's wonderful stuff, and I'm figuring that the $8 block will probably last me the next 30 years - a little goes a long way.
I got it at Klingspor's Woodworking Shop in Raleigh, NC. However, since Klingspor's a German company, there's a good chance they've got a store presence in the UK if you want to get some and try it.
By the way - Do you know of an on-line store that sells Chalk from the cliffs at Dover? I'm trying to find some natural chalk that contains itty-bitty fossilized sea creatures for a elementary school demonstration, and nowadays all schoolroom chalk that I can find is the synthetic stuff, which is pretty boring to look at through a microscope.
David
David,If I lived closer to them White Cliffs, I would nip down and get you a scoop or even a lump. Unfortunatey they're some 300 miles away. I suppose this is but a short car ride in the US but here it would take days and days, as traffic is voluminous. :-)Of course, there is probably a Law agin' taking the chalk, as this would add to the erosion issue caused by the sea chewing them cliffs away at a yard or so a year. You taking that lump might be The Final Act That Sinks Blighty!The fossil mecca of the south coast of England is Lyme Regis. I'll go a Googling-oh to see if there is a chalk-seller in the region.Lataxe
Edited 11/20/2008 4:55 pm ET by Lataxe
"Of course, there is probably a Law agin' taking the chalk, as this would add to the erosion issue caused by the sea chewing them cliffs away at a yard or so a year. You taking that lump might be The Final Act That Sinks Blighty!"
I've no doubt that the cliffs would be protected from commercial exploitation, they've too much of an iconic status for Brits. That said, I didn't know how far the geological formation extends into the countryside, and it occurred to me that some small company might be making a go of it by digging out some of it for space for other things, like basements (cellars), building foundations and the like.
If you find someone selling the traditional stuff, I'd appreciate the heads-up. I've found exactly zero in the US - most of the natural chalk that I can find isn't fossilized sea critters, but just an inorganic deposit of calcium carbonate that's been baked and re-hydrated.
David,There seem to be dozens of on-line sellers of chalk-found fossils and many of them include the chalk! "From 50 pence" claim more than one of these diggers. :-) Ah, but there will be the postage to you out in the colony .....Anyway, here are a few:http://www.fossilsdirect.co.uk/products.cfm?cat=echinodermshttp://www.fossilfarm.co.uk/about.htmlhttp://www.caistor.ukfossils.co.uk/http://www.hotfroguk.co.uk/Products/fossilshttp://www.flesko.co.uk/directory/travel_tourism/fauna_flora/fossils-palaeontology.phpIncidentally, I noticed a fine article in this week's New Scientist magazine all about how evolution, of life in particular, has created a huge variety of mineral types unknown to planet Earth before the oxygen-makers began to create our volatile atmosphere and all the gunks within it. I would like to read the whole paper the article referenced but there is so much stuff to know about......... Lataxe, soon to be a mineralised heap of dust hisself (well, in 30 or 40 years, he hopes).
Thanks for the links, Lataxe. It may take me awhile to sort through them, but it might be that I can e-mail one of the purveyors and explain what I want the chalk for, and he/she might be willing to mail me out a small (and otherwise worthless to them) chunk in the regular parcel post.
When I worked as a lineman in Hampshire lo these many years ago, we had to dig out deadman holes, 6' x 6' x 1', in order to backstay the towers. Many miles inland more often than not you hit chalk under about 6 inches of loam, all the way down to six feet. Easy digging until you hit flintsones, which were almost as plentiful as chalk. Flintstones were traditionally used in building walls in the area. I imagine any chalk dug up is dumped.
Jim
i don't mean to be rude, but to get back to sharpening...
nora hall gave me and my father each a piece of elk hide. she told us to charge it with aluminum oxide. been stropping this way ever since. i bought that little bottle of oxide in 1978 and i still have it. a little goes a long way.
eef
"The stuff I use is called "Herb's Yellowstone for a Magic Edge"."
David,
If anyone else posted that, I probably wouldn't believe them!Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Chris,
for the finest edge, just coat the leather with a light coat of KY Jelly and then sprinkle some Johnson's Baby powder on it. Ten strokes on each side and your iron will be sharp and happy.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Johnson's Baby Powder comes in 2 forms. Talc and corn starch. Which one?Rich
Rich,
"Johnson's Baby Powder comes in 2 forms. Talc and corn starch. Which one?"I use the corn starch for the initial hone, and finalize with the talc.Always glad to help a fellow woodworker who is genuinely trying to improve. :-)
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
"If anyone else posted that, I probably wouldn't believe them!"
Ha! Yeah, I'll admit I laughed out loud when I pulled the little instruction sheet out of the tube at Lataxe's prompting - I never knew it had such a colorful title, I bought it out of the local Klingspor's Woodworking shop as "honing compound" ;-)
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