Interesting review. Although I found it to be rather informative, I’m not sure that I agree with the results. As nice as the Lie-Nielsen chisels are, my experiences with them have led me to conclude the price and inability to hold an edge make these chisels more of a show piece than something to be used on a daily basis. For the most part, each of the criteria established in the article can be remedied. Chisel to long – cut the handle. Land to large – grind it down. Not flat…you get the point. I’m sure that with the proper heating (straw, rasberry, cherry, orange!!!), that edge retention can be changed, but I’m not willing to put something I spent $50 for under the torch.
I guess I’m of the opinion that a chisel that can hold its edge through a number of drawers is much more worthy of the “Editors Choice” award! What are your opinions?
Replies
H, I think that most of the market -highly touted- tools are not so wonderful and badly over priced vs their performance. Soooo what is better ? I have a rack of old, old one off's from the 1890's to 1920's of various types from garage sales, flea markets and Ebay at no more than $10, most at $2 to 5. These are std. cranked neck, paring, and mortice. I have a full rack of beaters from LV and they are fine, and an old full set of Sorbey London pattern bench. The mortice set is from Crown that I seldom use but work fine. I think that I am done. Paddy
Oh. I forgot my old Henry Taylors that are really very nice. pfh
I get your point and understand where you are coming from, but I'm not so interested in 'old' tools. Everyone goes through the "Why buy new when I can get old" issue and more often then not, it makes sense to get old. I guess what really got me is that the L-N chisels just don't stand up to day to day use and its problem can't be corrected without fancy metal work. I think the most important issue of any edge tool is how well it holds its edge. Sure there are other factors but, like I said, those can be corrected.Chris
That's interesting about LN's not being able to hold an edge or stand up to daily use. I found, and posted somewhere once, that for the first couple uses/sharpenings, this is true. After that however, they hold an excellent edge. I believe others agreed that there is a short brittleness to the edge out of the box. I swear by mine and use them all the time. Not to argue, though, if your experience is different. It took me by surprise when I got my first LN. jack
FWIW my LNs hold an edge as well. I have four or five, and find all to be equal in this regard. My vintage 750s, Swan, Witherby, Buck, berg, etc. can vary from chisel to chisel even within the same brand.
Hi Samson
I would like a set of chisels that I can use to chop into hard Australian timber, especially the endgrain of dovetails. They need to have fine tapered sides to get into side angles. I would also like to use them to pare, and for this reason they need to be comfortable in the hand with the fine, delicate balance one gets with thin steel. It goes without saying that they must get razor sharp, ideally be ground to a 25 degree bevel (for better penetration) without folding in hardwood, and that edge holding must be second-to-none.
I'm not asking too much am I?
Actually I was looking for such a beast recently. I had been working with my Iyoroi bench chisels and appreciated the way they held an edge and that I could really hammer them when working hard Jarrah. By contrast, the Witherby set I had put together over a few years, and the Stanley 750 set (ditto), just folded over after a few love taps. I have since sold the Witherbys and Stanleys and have the finances available for some "good" chisels.
If I am so impressed with the Iyoroi, why buy others? Because they are bloody uncomfortable to hold when paring - their hooped backs cut into my palm. What I really wanted was a set of Japanese slicks ... nice thin blades. I have a couple of so-so ones - their blades are not so nice and thin. The Problem is that Jarrah and other Aussie hardwood endgrains are sometimes too hard to pare - a gentle (or not-so-gentle) tap is needed to persuade the blade through the wood - and one does not hit a non-hooped handle.
I have another set of chisels, a set of Blue Spruce detail/dovetail chisels. They are wonderful in the hand and hold an edge really well. Do I use a hammer on their lovely African Blackwood handles? Incidentally, the BS are MUCH more comfortable to hold than LN bench chisels.
I was thinking of a set of LN bench chisels as they are reputedly good for paring and hammering, and have really nice thin sides for those dovetail angles (as do the BS, but NOT Japanese chisels) however I am not crazy about the fact that they require a 35 degree bevel. That does not make paring easy.
The moral of the story is that no one chisel does it all, or should be expected to do it all. Returning to the topic at hand ... Reducing the results of an evaluation to an average score is not helpful in making decisions. Neither is determining an overall "winner" based on a single criterion (since this does not suit all). Where does that place the results of the FWW article? Surely it would be better to classify chisels into types and rate them in that way?
Regards dfrom Perth
Derek
Edited 8/1/2008 5:34 am ET by derekcohen
I believe Adam Cherubini is developing a new chisel and will possibly be offering them in the future, based on expert reviews he submitted them for.
Edited 8/1/2008 5:17 pm ET by sykesville
Derek,This is all preceeded by IMHO.Loved your review of the FWW Chisel review. It adds to our previous conversation about the problems of doing tool reviews. You said "Reducing the results of an evaluation to an average score is not helpful in making decisions. Neither is determining an overall "winner" based on a single criterion ..."I believe those statements to be grossly unfair to the article. They do not give the reader credit for being able to think for himself. The article presented multiple criteria, and evaluated all the chisels on each. These included ergonomics, edge retention, dovetail, paring and chopping.I believe that article to be the best and most complete set of information on comparing various brands of chisels that I have ever seen. As always, I ignore the selection of the winner, as I do when I read Consumer Reports. I do pay attention to the set of criteria, and I put my own weightings on the criteria, and come to my own conclusions. I believe that magazine editors WANT authors to select "winners" because:
- newbies love it. They want "the best", and want to be told which are "the best".
- it generates interest and debate, as it is doing in this thread.I believe that oldbies have the wisdom and experience to THINK for themselves, and to use the information presented in the review to make their own decisions, and that is the way things should be.Einstine said, "An explanation should be as simple as possible, but no simpler." Authors are pressed to make things "too simple". So what? As long as they give us the raw data to make our own decision on. And this author did just that. I don't have the money, time or interest to buy 20 different brands of chisels and try them out, but I loved the fact that FWW did just that. So what did the article do for me?
Well, I enjoyed it. I looked for "holes" in the thinking of the tool reviewer because I enjoy doing that. I enjoyed checking to see if the reviewer came to the same conclusions that I did on the tools that I know. Not that it matters, but he did. I have experience with the Pfeils, the Hirsch and the Lie Nielsens. To me, almost anything made by Pfeil is very good. I used to have a set of Hirsch, but sold them to buy the Lie Nielsens. The Hirsch served me well. I didn't buy the LNs until I held them down at Woodcraft. I FELL IN LOVE. They are a joy to use. They are light and easy to hold upright while dovetailing.
Maybe others dovetail for days at a time, but I never make more than a small number of drawers, and the edges hold up well and they are great to hold while doing so.But no one mentioned another important fact about Lie Nielsen chisels. THEY ARE FREE, when considered from a Life Cycle Cost model. You can buy them at full retail cost, use them for five years, and sell them on EBay for what you paid for them. That fact to me, combined with how well they work for me, makes me conclude that NO OTHER CHISEL COMES CLOSE TO THE LIE NIELSENS, when it comes to making a purchase. So the author came to the same conclusion I did, but for different reasons. Aren't these discussions fun?
Now it is time to get back to doing some woodwork.
Keep the review and the reviews of reviews coming. I am trying to come up with a set of criteria for writing tool reviews. So far, your writing has been the most helpful to me in doing that. My bottom line belief is that we on Knots focus far too much on "Tools" in and of themselves. My focus is on "tools as a means of getting jobs done". For me to be convinced to get rid of one tool and replace it with another, it has to be significantly better than the one that I have, and the life cycle price has to be reasonable. Most of us have most of the tools we need, so we are in the "replacement" mode. My definition of a Good Woodworker is one who can go into another woodworkers shop and make great furniture with the other guy's tools!!!!!! If a woodworker can only operate well with certain brands of tools, he or she is mediocre, at best. Tools are far less important than skills and attitudes in woodworking.Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
My definition of a Good Woodworker is one who can go into another woodworkers shop and make great furniture with the other guy's tools!!!!!! If a woodworker can only operate well with certain brands of tools, he or she is mediocre, at best. Tools are far less important than skills and attitudes in woodworking.
I don't know on that one Mel???
Like playing music(guitar).. I like my own axe and it feels just right to me after 30 years. I can do things on it that I don't "feel" funny doing. I have confidence from my muscle memory using that tool.
Recently I have developed "tennis elbow" and I am being told to change racquets. I have tried to do the same thing with several other "super high tech and expensive racquets" to get rid of the elbow problems. I am just amazed at how different they are. I have a lower confidence level when I stroke the ball and it just doesn't feel right at the moment. It doesn't mean I can't adapt but ... there is a big difference for me the first time I hold a new tool.
In another post, a writer talks about the japanese tool being uncomfortable to use for paring and using without a hammer. I feel the same way. They just don't work for me.
enough-you get my point but if I do come to your shop I will make a point of using your tools. I'm not so hard headed that I can't play a tune with someone's guitar.
dan
Dan,
Good to hear from you. I didn't expect agreement on my definition of a good woodworker. It is a nonstandard definition. I had a Gibson Les Paul for a while. I'll bet you could make that thing sing. I forget this pilot's name, but he had flown a lot of different types of fixed wing aircraft. Given a new type, he did a roll on take off. Said it was fun. New pilots shouldn't try that. My guess is that Tage Frid could take my tools and make some nice stuff. My guess is that Frank Klaus could take my dovetail saw and my chisels and dovetail a drawer in a few minutes, and it would be a tight fit. Actually, I think my point about a good woodworker being able to adapt to most any tools is a pretty weak point.I do think that playing a certain guitar or fiddle or banjo is a different thing than using chisels. If I am a fiddle player, I play that fiddle for a few hours every day. I only use my chisels every few weeks. All analogies fail somewhere, but I understand what you are saying.I do hope you get to visit my shop someday. I think you'll like my Pfeil gouges, LN chisels, etc. You may not be wild about my Delta contractor saw, but it makes nice straight cuts for me. Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
I'd bet a real test of your definition of a good woodworker is one that could move into Rays woodshop and be comfortable with ....... On second thought.
Hey, I could adapt to your woodshop. Oh, never mind. I also have a Delta contractors saw so that wouldn't work.
What was I thinking about anyway?
Oh I know. I agree with Derek.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,
"I agree with Derek."That is always a good thing to do.
He is invariably correct.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
You said "Reducing the results of an evaluation to an average score is not helpful in making decisions. Neither is determining an overall "winner" based on a single criterion ..."
I believe those statements to be grossly unfair to the article. They do not give the reader credit for being able to think for himself. The article presented multiple criteria, and evaluated all the chisels on each. These included ergonomics, edge retention, dovetail, paring and chopping.
Hi Mel
I agree with your sentiments, and also consider that the aim and execution of the article to be excellent. Chris Gouchnour included a very nice summary of the strengths and weaknesses of each chisel.
I believe that magazine editors WANT authors to select "winners"
I also suspect that Chris probably did not write the "Winners" summary, which is an example of what I am critical of. Actually, my comments before were not aimed at Chris' article, but reflected the difficulty one has in applying reviewers ratings to personal priorities. There are just too many variables and possible combinations to make classifications reliable.
I thought that Chris did an excellent job of clarifying what was available.
Let's also keep in mind that these are a very small slice of what is available on the chisel market. It would been interesting to have included a few Japanese slicks and a few upmarket Japanese chisels. These make the LNs, Blue Spruces, and Barrs appear quite reasonable in price, and the Grizzlys and Ashey Iles positively cheap.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Firstly, be forwarned that the following comments are those of a third-rate woodbutcher...
I have a motley collection of chisels. A few, which belonged to my talented grandfather, are nice. (Three Buck Bros, cast steel, socket chisels to be precise.) The rest were plastic handled bits of junk. Having a project involving white oak and angelique, and possessing (mostly) chisels that either wilted at the mere contemplation of those woods, or that were too 'valued' and small for the task, I looked about some before selecting the Barrs.
I would rate their edge holding as exemplary - tho they don't appreciate landing on the floor. I'm doing this work under the tutelage of three individuals with many years of woodworking experience between them and they, to a person, have been impressed with the Barr's ability to take a lickin and keep on chippen.
When I found myself in need of a slick, and I couldn't find a nice, experienced one in an appropriate size and price, I again turned to Quarton Barr, and I've not been disappointed (nor, again, were my 'directors')
With respect to the chisel set:
I think that the handles could be improved, esp with respect to the smaller chisels, to give them an 'anti-roll' feature. Other than that, they work OK. Maybe they're not as nice as the handles on Poppie's Bucks, but I don't know if the trade off for 'nicer' handles would be worth the higher price.
It would be nice, I think, to include a 3/8" in the set, perhaps at the expense of the 1/4". YOMV on this point.
With respect to the slick:
Damn thing was sharp and held it's edge, but it was straight, and it seems from my LIMITED experience that most slick users like a bit of a curve to the edge, so I had to do a bit of grinding and reshaping to accomplish that.
I love the handle.
View Image
Other than those niggling comments - nice tools, well made.
I hope you appreciate how long it took me to post this, LOL!
Edited 8/2/2008 10:45 am ET by EdHarrow
Derek,"Let's also keep in mind that these are a very small slice of what is available on the chisel market. It would been interesting to have included a few Japanese slicks and a few upmarket Japanese chisels."I agree.I noticed that Miyanaga blue/wrought iron and Nishiki bench chisels were absent. I can understand FWW not wanting to spring for a twisted Nishiki to test but the Miyangas are legend. I would have liked to have seen how the relatively new Miyanaga Dovetails would have faired.Similar to when they reviewed lathes and left OneWays off the list. John
Derek,
Yup, I agree. Tool reviews are interesting and problematic, as we have been discussing. As you know, I am wrestling with coming up with a useful set of criteria for a tool review. That is near impossible to do, because everyone wants something different. Also there are different types of tool reviews. One just reviews a single tool. You often do those. Others, like Gochnour's review a number of examples of a type of tool. Each has its own dilemmas.
Some folks are against tool reviews. I am not. The reason is that I enjoy getting fragments of information which I add to my cluttered mind. I never look to anyone else for a conclusion as to what to buy, because others have different criteria.
While I enjoy tool reviews, I take them with a grain of salt. On the web, almost everyone who has review, is "sponsored" even though it is rarely clear that this is the case. Even those who are not sponsored have predispositions. It is like listening to someone speak about politics. After a few minutes, you can figure out what particular political filter they have, and use a reverse filter to arrive at a somewhat closer approximation of "truth".
Some of the best and worst tool reviews are on Amazon. The interesting thing is trying to tell which is which. All of the "nuts" show up and send flames to Amazon. Also the phenomenon of "expectations" shows up in a big way. For example, a cheap Delta contractor saw gets higher scores than a Unisaw. It took me a lot of reading to find out why. Those who buy Unisaws have MUCH higher expectations, and they give a lower rating if the flatness of the table is off by a few thousandths, where as the cheap saws are bought by newbies and by people upgrading from a 35 year old Sears saw.
BUT I find Amazon to hold a wealth of great info, if you are willing to look hard for the nuggets. The Most Important thing I look for at Amazon is: PROBLEMS. If a tool really has a problem, many people will write in about it. This is a good thing when it comes to buying a tool.
THere is another difference in types of tool reviews. One is the review done during the development of the tool, for purposes of debugging the tool before going in to manufacturing. Such reviews are not made public. They just go to the developer. The other type review is done after the tool has gone into mass production. A thing that I have always found fascinating some of your tool reviews, is that they were requested by the tool manufacturer. I can't imagine why they would do such a thing and allow you to publish the findings. As you pointed out about Gary Blum, he must have had a lot of gumption to ask you to do this. The only reason I can possibly think of for asking for such a review, aside from sheer ignorance about retail sales, is that they just absolutely believe you will give them a great review, and they believe that people will read your review and then go out and buy their product. I would guess that running through their mind, when they do this, is that they are hoping that giving you the tool will influence you to give them a good review. I fully understand about the time it takes to do a review, but I am thinking not about truth and beauty, but the motivation of persons who request such a review.
The human mind is an interesting place to wander through. Trying to determine motivations is tricky, as you know. The human mind is not an optimal controller. I do believe Skinner's idea that a person is more likely to do what he feels he is being rewarded to do, is a useful way of understanding (some of) human behavior. Of course, the behavior of tool reviewers is also modified by the editor, who has his own set of problems.
Given all of this, I still enjoy reading tool reviews, but then again, I read them differently than most others.
Have fun. Thanks for responding.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
A set of Marples Blue Beaters I purchased around 1976? Very Good and have used them to chop about a gazillion DT's. About 1 1/4' shorter than original..
A set of Ashley Isle's for paring and a set of Ashley Isles DT paring chisels.. Extremely good.
A set of Craftsman butt chisels purchased in 1972. Good as they get the call on metal.. 55 gallon drums.. decks.. etc.
I have use Barr framing chisels to Timber-frame. Excellent and the edge retention in the article unless the steel has been changed in the last few years.... ????
I have used the Narex at Highland Woodworking (Highland Hardware to us old guys) and they are very good. Good enough IMO to say for $6.00 U.S. probably the best chisel for the $$ on the market.
I may buy several sets to give as gifts to entry level friends or relatives.
Have a good day all...
Sarge..
I'd agree that Chris did a nice job of a rather daunting task. Just sitting down to sharpen that many chisels prior to testing might make one take up needlepoint, instead. While I, too, would have liked to see some of the high-end, hand-made Japanese chisels included in the sampling, they really are at a different level. Perhaps FWW will do a future article on just that category, dealing, in part, with the influence of having that much of the maker's soul folded into the tool. Much different than "production" tools, I'd think.
but reflected the difficulty one has in applying reviewers ratings to personal priorities.
Like you want to go fishing and your mate want to go shopping!
derek,
Not sure if I follow you when you say "one does not hit a non-hooped handle". Perhaps you meant, with a steel hammer? I have several Japanese chisels, and agree that the iron ring is less than comfortable. But many of the western style chisels I own have handles with a thick leather end on them, allowing heavy hitting with a mallet (maybe even occasionally a hammer, although, ahem, uh, I've never been seen doing so). Turning a stubby 1/4" long or so, 3/8-1/2" dia tenon on the end of the handle allows for the secure gluing of a ring of heavy leather (I got some sole leather from a shoe repair shop, it's at least 1/4" thick). Of course, you can turn the handle to any shape that is comfortable to you.
Ray
Interesting comments about the Lie-Nielsens. I have a set that was produced very shortly after their introduction, and I also have problems getting them to hold their edge under mild chopping, and even paring in harder woods like mahogany and walnut.
The problem in my set isn't edge-chipping, it's that the edge folds over. My impression looking at other comments (that described chipping) is that their may have been some consistency problems during the hardening/tempering process. Luckily, Lie-Nielsen is very good about replacing tools with manufacturing and/or material defects, so I may ask them to replace my set. Perhaps the later production will be a bit more consistent (and tougher).
And - I can't resist including this comment - though I'm most interested in reviews of hand tools, such reviews still have no place in FWW (particularly as the headline). They belong in a separate issue or in a sister magazine.
Hi Ray
Not sure if I follow you when you say "one does not hit a non-hooped handle".
I was referring to using any hammer (wooden or steel), but did not make it clear I was specifying Japanese slicks rather than Western chisel handles.
To be fair, some of what I said was to illustrate a point rather than the absolute state of things. For example, I do use a light wooden mallet on my Blue Spruce chisels occasionaly ... just a light tap mind you. Dave Jeske (Blue Spruce) has tried to reassure me that the handles can take much more punishment than this.
I also do the same with my Japanese slicks, but their long handles make mallet use a clumsy affair.
The way a chisel feels in the hand ... its balance ... is equally important as the way the blade holds an edge. I chose the BS over the LN partly because their handles are longer and more comfortable, and partly because their edges appear to hold up at 30 degrees (to the 35 degrees of the LN). I prefer the steel of the Japanese chisels over all others, but the hooped variety were clearly designed by a masochist if intended for pushing. :) It just seems that it is an "either-or" situation with them - either you use the variety that requires you hit them, or you use the variety that requires you push them.
Of course, you can turn the handle to any shape that is comfortable to you.
Yes. I have done that. I have a set of Berg chisels that I rehandled expressly for paring. The bevels are 20 degrees (the steel is excellent and holds a great edge) and the handles are long like a Japanese slick.
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Regards fro Perth
Derek
Hi, Derek. I'm not exactly sure why you addressed your response to me, but I certainly don't mind the conversation. All I offered to the thread above was a response to someone who found the LN steel soft. I was just reporting that my expereince has been that they hold up very well (in maple, cherry, walnut, mahogany, etc. that I tend to use, by the way). I added as an aside that the steel in some vintage chisles can vary literally from one individual chisel to another, again, in my experience.
As far as no one chisel doing it all, I guess this is so, but in my experience, a single bench chisel should be able to do all "bench chisel" (as opposed to say mortising chisel or long paring chisel, or lock mortise chisel, etc.) tasks. Specialty chisels, like the BS are nice for sure, though. A few of my too many chisels:
View Image
Hi Samson
Those are beautiful chisels. Many look like the ones that I recently sold. I was sad to let them go, but they just did not work for me on our local timber. Chisels are by far my favourite tool, and I had too many that were not being used.
Regards from Perth
Derek
this was my experience to the letter... when I first used the LN chisels I was pretty disappointed, and it was probably a combination of these things not being Jesus chisels (miracle workers) and the fact that they didn't hold an edge. I persevered and after about the 5th or 6th sharpening I noticed a distinct change in the quality of the edge I was getting (combination Tormek and waterstone followed by a stroping method). Now I am very happy with the LN bench chisels and can recommend them.Lastly, it's easy to say "well for $300 yada yada yada" but for a tool that will last well beyond my years on this earth I don't see what the big deal is about spending a couple hundred $$ more for 'em. Spread out over a lifetime of use, it's pocket change.
I would like to add this about chisels based on strictly my opinion as I would much rather be using them as discussing them. But... in fairness to any beginner reading all this that doesn't have the money to buy a $300 or $150 set of chisels... I think it should be said so.... they shouldn't feel they can't build a project without a set of top quality chisels or any other tool for that matter.
So.... yes.. an expensive set of chisels of high quality steel will last a life-time unless they are just un-believably abused. But... but.. I have a set of Marples that cost $20 when I purchased them 32 years ago that will last a life-time. I have a set of Craftsman used for construction purchased 37 years ago that will last a life-time. I have a $125 set of Ashley Isle's that will last a life-time.
And if I purchased a $30 set of Narex today.. I have no doubts personally that they would not last a life-time. The fact is.. that most hobbyist will not use a chisel to a point that regardless of quality won't last a life-time or two. How many hand DT's are chopped these days. I have chopped over 400 tails and pins with Marples in the last 4 months.
How many mortises are hand chopped these days? And if they were a mortise chisel in lieu of a beveled bench chisel would be the weapon of choice. And if you placed two finished pieces side by side... one with joints pared with expensive chisels and one with cheaper.. how many would be able to distinguish which chisel was used on which?
Sorry.. but perhaps too much emphasis is placed on quality of tool and not enough on the quality of skill in whose hands they rest. The inter-net is a wonderful way of passing information as in 1972 when I got involved as a hobbyist... it wasn't available.
But.. when you see someone ask what is wrong with their saw as they are getting a .004 variance in a ripped piece of stock 36" long according to their digital reader.... and then 7 people answer how to correct it with various tunes, etc...... perhaps things of in-significance are getting pushed way too far to the fore-front. How does someone trying to get their feet wet not preclude that everything must be "operating room and launch pad ready" before actually building something is necessary.
Sorry as I don't want to ruffle any feathers here but... I have never seen any project that couldn't be done with a set of cheaper but good quality chisels. And doubt I ever will. Being in position to purchase a top quality chisel and doing so is great as each of us should control our own purchase with our own funds available.
I just wanted to give those getting started that cannot afford a top quality a perspective that it "should not" hold up their progress in the hobby as it is not of the utmost priority... IMO. I will shut up now and go back to work.. :>)
Sarge..
Edited 8/3/2008 12:45 pm ET by SARGEgrinder47
"Sorry as I don't want to ruffle any feathers here but... I have never seen any project that couldn't be done with a set of cheaper but good quality chisels. And doubt I ever will. Being in position to purchase a top quality chisel and doing so is great as each of us should control our own purchase with our own funds available. "Great comment and from it I distill two very valuable points:1) It's stating the obvious, but yeah the quality of the craftsman is not a function of the quality of the tools. However, given the choice between a good quality tool and a something that I have to work around to get what I want or put extra cycles into before I can use it, well obviously I'll take the quality route. I have a set of blue Marples in my box as well, but I had to cut the handles down and regrind the tool before it felt right. 2) If I lived in Cuba there might be some central authority that tells me what tools I can own but here in the capitalist U.S.A. I can buy whatever the *ell I want and not feel self-conscious about the price tag.
I'm just the opposite with the Marples, Woodman. They were right in my hand just as the Ashley Isles were. They might not be in someone else's but that is why I feel it it better to put them in your hand and compare before you buy rather than base a a decision on reputation of quality alone.
Tomorrow my wife is having surgery. In that case I hope the surgeon has chosen both a high quality scaffold and one that feels right in his hand. Paring and chopping I don't think carries the same significance... at least to me. But if it did.. then I would go for both characteristics in one tool whichever it was.
Enjoy the LN's....
Sarge..
Sarge,
I hope your wife does well in surgery and that the surgeon uses his favorite scalpel rather than scaffold (sorry, couldn't resist).
Personally I like tool reviews and when I first started into woodworking, took them as gospel but now, like Mel, read them for bits of information... I have never had trouble with the Barrs holding an edge and I tend to use them on the hardest wood....I like the Ashley Iles for general work and use the Blue Spruce for finer work like paring dovetails..I cannot bring myself to strike them with a hammer of any sort..I have bought some used tools, mostly planes, but am leery of doing so as I'm not sure how to evaluate an old chisel at a flea market or an antique shop. I understand Mel's comment about tools and using them but there is something very gratifying about the visual and tactile experience of a finely made tool...nothing is better than sex but using a well made tool is in the top five in my opinion.
Neil the wanton tool user
Well said, Niel. The surgery went fine but the recovery got complicated. I just got home at 9 PM EST and had to leave. She was nauseaus.. had a migrane and could not maintain over 90 with an oxegen mask off. Long story but a previous stay on a respirator 10 years ago is the main culprit as she had 8 chest tubes then.
Regards..
Sarge..
Best wishes to your wife for her upcoming surgery, I hope everything goes as planned and her recovery is complete.Re the chisels, I don't think you can ever not consider the feel in your hand, but for chopping I find this is less of a consideration. For paring and carving, absolutely. On balance, I'm more concerned with the quality of the tool with regard to holding an edge, having good balance, and a profile that accommodates a wide range of working scenarios.Having said that, I actually didn't like the handles that came with the LN set, probably because I have bigger hands and these just felt too tight for me... but I quickly turned a new set of handles (the beauty of a socket chisel) and now I'm set. After getting beyond the initial experience with lack of a good edge, I am now really happy with these chisels. When I tuned up the Marples I liked them a lot better, and I have a hodge podge of japanese, old stanley 750s and Buck Bros that all work really well. In the final analysis, I can make anything work but I prefer a tool that makes it feel less like work!BTW, I am craving a set of the Ashley Iles english mortise chisels. Not only are Iles tools of the highest quality, but the complete package (handles, etc.) are really well thought out.
Woodman,Ashley Iles Mortise chisels or Ray Iles Mortise chisels?. I'm not sure I've seem the Ashley Iles versions. Where would I look? Checked their website and it only has carving and turning. I love the Ray Iles stuff.
Great handles!Thanks,BB
There are no Ashley Iles Mortise chisels. Only Ray makes them. This confisuion happens all the time. It's okay however, it's a close family and Ray makes stuff for his brothers and visa versa. Joel
http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com
yeah, I got my Iles brothers mixed up! The mortise chisels I want are the Ray Iles.
Yes, there is something about the... British "Iles" :-)
yeah, I got my Iles brothers mixed up! The mortise chisels I want are the Ray Iles.I have a set of his mortising chisels & really like using them. They have a much different feel to them than other mortising chisels
And I agree WM. I have not tried the LN's as it is a matter of price point and the fact I don't really need more chisels. But I just commented to Neil about the handles on two cherries. And the feel to me is the most important characteristic I look for. As the review showed I don't think there was a great difference from low end to high end that justifies the large difference in price. But that's just the opionion I formed.
Interestingly enough one of the few hollow mortisce chisel test I saw brought out some similar facts about them. So.. it boils back down to who is purchasing and what criteria they deem important.
The wife came out of surgery fine... but with some recovery complications that required and over-night stay. After sitting on those hospital chairs for 15 hours I came home and just got here around 9 PM EST. The old man is pooped.
I do love the feel of the AI BTW... and Joel who posted in another post is where I get them and Liberon wax for that matter.
Regards...
Sarge.. who is hitting the rack early after 3 hours sleep last night and then an endurance course at the hosipital. :>)
Morning Sarge,
I agree with you.
Maybe it's the wood that one typically works with, along with operations one deploys the chisels for? Whether you're a hobbiest or a professional with deadlines to meet. You're more of a collector vs woodworker? In this case one size does not fit all methinks.
My Marples Blues at this point are my go to chisels more often than not. No, they don't hold their edge as well as I would like them to. Why is that, and I emphasize as I would like them to? Is it because my sharpening skills aren't what they should be?
You know, the more I think about it I'm glad I bought the Marples chisels. I mean having these and coupled with the fact that I need to sharpen them more often than I might have to with an expensive set of chisels.
I feel I'm gaining on two fronts; I'm improving my sharpening skills and I'm not wasting away a lot of expensive iron because of my less than desirable sharpening skills. When I get to the point where I can maintain these with little effort then I might consider a more expensive set.
Besides, I like the way they feel when I use them. In reality though I'm not sure what they are supposed to feel like anyway. Have you ever used a chisel whos' handle felt downright uncomfortable!?
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 8/4/2008 7:34 am ET by KiddervilleAcres
Edited 8/4/2008 7:34 am ET by KiddervilleAcres
The feel is everything to me, Bob. And yes... I have used a set that just didn't have the feel I am comfortable with. Two cherries actually which I am sure are good chisels..... they just don't feel right to me?
Sarge..
Sarge,"Sorry as I don't want to ruffle any feathers here but... I have never seen any project that couldn't be done with a set of cheaper but good quality chisels. And doubt I ever will. Being in position to purchase a top quality chisel and doing so is great as each of us should control our own purchase with our own funds available. "Sarge, That was the wisest paragraph I have ever read on Knots.
THREE CHEERS FOR THE SARGE. "Best" is a relative term. On the worksite, I can't imagine taking anything but Irwins or cheaper Stanleys, etc, because, IMHO, those are BEST for the jobsite. For Bill Gates, I would rcommend not only buying Lie Nielsen's, but I would recommend that he make an offer for the company. What the hell? Why not? For the yuppie woodworker with more money than sense, and no confidence in his own judgement, I recommend buying whatever the latest review in FWW says, and telling your yuppie woodworking friends that is what you did. For a passionate woodworker of modest means, I recommend not thinking too much about chisels. Better chisels don't buy you that much. If you have the bucks, and you like the feel of any set of chisels that you can afford, and you have gotten info that they will live up to your expectations for holding an edge, etc, then buy 'em, and use 'em. Have fun,
Keep telling it like it is.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
It would be wonderful if the answer lie only a Visa card and a mouseclick away, wouldn't it?
Edited 8/6/2008 8:36 am ET by PanBroil
Pan,
I wish I didn't have to pay the Visa bill at the end of each month.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Maybe if they had conducted a hardness test on the chisels if might have laid to rest some of the questions about the metal holding an edge.
GW,
"Maybe if they had conducted a hardness test on the chisels if might have laid to rest some of the questions about the metal holding an edge."I am not sure that is the case. Doesn't it depend on how the hardening was done. The specific process used to do the hardening has an effect on how much of the blade is hardened and how the hardening changes from place to place on a blade. One blade may have good steel which holds a nice edge, but after ten sharpenings, the hard steel is gone. I am not sure that any set of tests is conclusive. The best you can go on is how well the company that produced the chisels have done over the years. No set of tests are perfect. Any set of tests just gives rise to complaints that something wasn't done. My main point on chisels is that is doesn't make much difference. As Sarge says, he often uses the Irwin/Marples cheap chisels. Paying ten times as much just means that you don't sharpen as often. I own the Lie Nielsens, just because I like the way they feel. Also, I work at Woodcraft and can buy them for just about half price. Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
"For a passionate woodworker of modest means, I recommend not thinking too much about chisels. Better chisels don't buy you that much."
I disagree. Sharpening and honing is time spent not doing woodworking, and is very valuable to me. That said, just because a chisel's expensive doesn't mean it will hold an edge, and just because a chisel's cheap doesn't mean it won't hold an edge. This (for me, anyway) is where the test in FWW falls down. Edge-holding ability has primacy over almost all else in chisel design for a given form factor (i.e., firmer, paring, etc...), and should be weighted so that the chisel that holds an edge the best wins over others even if it takes more back-flattening prep time, or requires work to thin out the bevels in the case of paring chisels. The reason is that you only have to do this once, while you're going to grind/hone/sharpen a chisel hundreds of times over its lifetime.
And regarding the idea that it's all the craftsman and not the tools, I think this is very misleading. The best dovetailer in the country can't get good results with a crappy saw. It's just that the best dovetailer in the country realizes he's been given a crappy saw and does something about it (either tuning it up, or ditching it). And a superior craftsman is going to be totally unable to surface a board with a handplane with a warped sole. Those are just 2 examples, there are many, many others.
d.
The great thing about woodworking is that we can disagree and still be friends. About dovetail saws. Ray Pine uses a $10 gent's saw. Tage use a big ol bow saw. I have cut them with a dozuki and a Lie Nielsen. To me, if you know how to cut to a line and pare to a line, you can make beautiful dovetails with just about anything. If I sharpen up a nice set of cheap chisels, say Irwins, I can chop a lot of dovetails in poplar before I have to resharpen. Of course, honing only takes a few seconds. Skill isn't "everything" in my book, but just about everything. I have watched good banjo players play a cheap banjo beautifully. I have watched mediocre banjo players swear at a cheap banjo. They should have been swearing at their mediocre skills. But believe me, if a person is rich, I recommend spending your money before you die. Buy great tools. But the companies that make tools. Have fun. What else is there? If I had ten great woodworkers, and commissioned each to make the same Chippendale highboy, and let them all use their tools, EXCEPT that five of them had to use Irwin Chisels for the dovetailing, I am confident that you could not pick out which ones were made Highboys had their dovetails made with the Irwins. My guess that the total time sharpening for the two groups of five would not be much different. So in the big scope of things, I am always searching for what are the things that I need to make me a much better woodworker. When I see good woodworkers, and I do every week, I see that that there are a lot of skills that I need to acquire and hone. Getting better tools will only make marginal improvements in my furniture.That being said, I use Lie Nielsen chisels.
Aint' that a hoot?
Have fun. Keep smiling.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
I'm going to have to agree with the "Boss" (which I find myself doing more and more these days) about the crappy saw. Out of curiosity I did an experiment several years ago with DT saws. I went to the Box store and bought a crappy $5 Buck Brothers back-saw. I had a Japanese type DT pull saw and I had a LN DT saw I had just purchased in my shop.
I cut DT's with all three and posted picture's asking someone to distinguish which was cut with which. The results were not a clue other than a guess but compliments on all the DT's. I have attended two seminars by Frank Klaus that he would randomly pick up any saw given to him and cut perfect DT's in the blink of an eye. I honestly believe he could cut them blind-folded with a steak knife as he knows what is important to achieve a good DT.
30 + years ago I was just happy to get my first set of chisels which related to the fact I now had some to work with. Those were the days when your father taught you to hook up a set of jumper cables and sharpen a pocket-knife with Arkansas stones. I did not until latter realize I was "hand-cuffed" by the fact of inferior quality being a major factor in achieving good results. Consequently... I still don't and nothing so far I have seen has proven that theory wrong IMO.
As to sharpening taking too much time that could be spent WW... Initial flattening and acquiring the angle you wish will take longer but not an excess of time. Once that is done... any grinding (which is not always necessary and depends), sharpening and honing takes very little time. Frankly... only a small fraction of the time most of us spend chatting on WW forums each day and that's a fact.
Fact is that most use soft-woods for drawers on a project which contributes to a large % of DT's cut. Having an edge roll on soft-wood takes away some of necessity required on harder woods. Twice in four months I have used older Marples to cut in excess of 400 pins and tails with a 220-180 approximate split on the projects involved. I only had to hone those chisels and never re-sharpen.
I did re-sharpen the 1/8"-1/4"-3/8" after each project with scary sharp which took less than minutes each. Much less than the time I spent here typing this post. So... with that said I still believe too much emphasis is often steered toward quality of tool and not enough on acquiring the skill to use a tool.
Below is a picture of some DT's cut recently. I had concerns on this set not for the $19 Irwin pull saw.. but the fact I used Boxwood which is extremely soft and the end grain requires extra attention. Now.. I have opened myself to critique.... so how would I have improved those DT's by using a top quality DT saw as a LN Independence which I sold about 8 months ago to get the $19 Irwin which I prefer in my hand?
Regards...
Sarge..
Opps...
Hmm - I'm assuming you meant "wood from boxes" instead of "Boxwood"? Boxwood (at least the members of Buxus family) is about as hard as glass. Even the south american boxwood "substitutes" are about as hard and dense...
I think a point that some here are missing is that while good tools (not expensive, but good) tools do not do the job for you. They help you do the job, better and easier. So while I have a couple of nice planes I can not do all that much with them as I am still figuring them out. On the other hand a true pro could pick them up and make music with them. At the same time I think that you could put a p.o.s. plan in the hands of a true pro and he would still do better then me and my LN or LV planes.
So while the tools are important the skill needed is more do. And when you add in set up to this the tool becomes less important still. Now if you give a bad tool to an amateur you are just going to get a guy (or gal) that will be taking up a new hobby soon. As the lack of skill and lack or quality in the tool is just to much for most to overcome.
Also when looking at reviews, you need to consider that person choice is a big part of this. And hand tools even more so. I HATE my dads pad sander, to the point of not using it if I can avoid it, but he loves it, to the point he bought the same one he had when he needed a new one. Why is this? Not sure I assume because our hands are of different size/shape. I think that chisels and such would only be even more personal because of this.
This is why the make chocolate and vanilla.
Doug Meyer
"Basswood" was the correct answer. My wife came home from extended stay in surgery late yesterday and I am baby-sitting and atttempting to catch up on 3 forums while doing so. Not ideal circumstances to be less than in a hurry without careful thought. :>)
Regards...
Sarge..
You know, I thought about "basswood" after I posted the carving in the gallery. That makes a lot more sense (and in some cases, is a historical choice). And besides, if you'd lucked into true boxwood in a size like that, a lot of us would-be tool makers would be on your porch in 30 minutes with torches and pitchforks. ;-)
The best dovetailer in the country can't get good results with a crappy saw. It's just that the best dovetailer in the country realizes he's been given a crappy saw and does something about it (either tuning it up, or ditching it). And a superior craftsman is going to be totally unable [emphasis added] to surface a board with a handplane with a warped sole. Those are just 2 examples, there are many, many others."
Complete, total, and utter, bull$hit.
I could cut a perfect dovetail with a $6 Stanley dovetail saw with a bad kink (and have).
I could gnaw a board perfectly flat with my teeth and damn near perfectly smooth given enough time and a mark to work to. I could tie a series of flat rocks to several sticks and get it all the way to a finished state.
Perfectly flat sole my hind end. I've seen a whole bunch of little poopy-butts come and go on this forum but I think you take the cake.
Edited 8/6/2008 11:32 am ET by BossCrunk
"poopy-butts"good phrase. Had a dog we use to call "stinko butt"Some times only certain phrases fit.
If the set is not accurate on the saw you mentioned, the downward cut on a dovetail will curve. To say the least, this is not conducive to correctly fitting the joint. Further, if the set is overly broad, the saw plate will not be jigged in the cut, and it will wander. This isn't just my opinion, and there's an excellent reason why individuals like Tom Law, Mike Wenzlof, etc... make test cuts on the saws they sharpen and adjust the set. And doing so is not a beginner excersise.
And if the sole of a plane is warped (and I'm not talking about micrometer measurements here), it may not take a shaving at all if it is concave, and if you set the blade down sufficiently so that it will take a cut, it will leave massive tearout in its wake because the front of the cut is not supported. And when you exit the work at the end of the board, it will take a much larger shaving, leaving a convex shape to the board after a few shavings. Again, this is not just my opinion. There's is a very good reason why Lie-Nielsen and Lee-Valley go to great lengths to flatten the soles of their handplanes - it isn't marketing hype. Similarly, there's a good reason why experts in handtools like David Charlesworth, Rob Cosman, Jim Klingshott, etc... advise users to flatten the soles of their planes.
With these tools (as well as chisels), the tool's shape and accuracy provides an important jigging function, without which even an expert is going to have a tough time (and said expert will more than likely stop the work and spend some time correcting the problem).
But... There's a larger question (and misperception) here. A good tool is not necessarily an expensive tool, and an expensive tool is not necessarily a good tool.
Moreover, the argument that you can "get by" with a tool that's poorly tuned and/or poorly made is not really relevant. Of course you can - you make a serviceable piece of furniture with an ax. But that isn't what most of us aspire to.
There's a lot more to a chisel than edge holding. And I think Chris did a good job stating as much in his article. I think the issue is that some chisels are more forgiving of sharpening errors or user errors than others. Some will be easier to effect more advanced techniques, sadly not discussed in Chris' article. I think the advice of buying the 1/4", 1/2", 3/4", 1" Irwins is good for someone who's made the decision to do very little with their chisels. These are chisels whose size and construction will limit what you can do. If you are interested in doing more advanced work, or working with harder materials, the 4 pc Irwin set is pretty bad advice. I wonder if Sarge would recommend the craftsman table saw? It's good enough, right? So what if the table isn't flat or the arbor is weak and crooked? This may be good enough for someone who has very low expectations or requirements. (I don't know anything about tables saws, craftsman or otherwise- just trying to make a point- sorry craftsman)So I don't think it's really fair to say in essence "nobody needs a $50 chisel" Maybe they do, maybe they don't. What I would have liked to see in the review is who needs a $50 chisel and when or for what. I would have also liked to see what could be done to a cheap chisel to increase it's performance. I sorta liked the sense that Chris felt there was more to a chisel than edge holding. Okay, got it. But there should be more to a chisel review article. That was a lot of pages and pretty pictures without enough information. Gochnour showed us different ways he held the chisels for different techniques. Were some handles designed better for certain techniques than others? If you're going to talk about ergonomics, be specific. What did you like and not like and how were you holding your chisels? If you always hold the blade (as some folks do when dovetailing) maybe one chisel would be best, for though it's handle was uncomfortable, it's balance was better.I don't think this article moved the ball forward. We're back to the line of scrimmage, which in my opinion is not good enough. I have seen many "tune up your band saw" articles. Why not a "tune up your chisel" article? I think Gochnour has a lot of talent. I'm glad he didn't get on the metallurgy merry go round. Kudos for that. But I just wish he shared more of his thoughts with us and was more specific about what he was doing, how he did it. I would have liked to see his experience "expanding the performance envelop" of each chisel. What happen if you take the good chisels and grind them to 25 degrees? Will 35 degrees help the Irwins? Would a secondary bevel help the chopping tests? And what was the performance of each. A cold chisel will hold it's edge after so many chops. Lower angled chisels should have out performed the higher, all things being equal.Adam
I've seen some articles about fixing up your marples/irwins, but it was a while back and I can't say which mag it was in - PW, WWJ, or FWW? I want to say it was Lonnie Bird? But anyway, he recommended cutting off the top inch or so of the handle and grinding the side bevels on the last couple inches of the blade. Made sense to me. I tried the bevel grinding on a beater 1/4" stanley 750 I had, and now find it to be quite good for use in dt clean-up.
Why don't you do a chisel use installment in your column? Alternative/advanced techniques, key qualities, etc.
Part of the reason it may be difficult to talk about meaningfully is that different personal preferences and work habits make it difficult to pronounce one size fits all answers. It's like workbenches in that regard.
Samson,
I an not sure if Adam responded to your comment about Lonnie Bird's suggestions on fixing up the Marples/Irwins. I don't remember where I saw it. Maybe it was in a DVD? But it was interesting. I think he was trying to turn the Marples into a Lie Nielsen. He wanted it to be shorter, so he chopped off half of the handle and then sanded it down. Then he ground the sides of the chisels to come to a point( actually to a line), as do the LNs for ease of use on dovetails. I found this to be creative, interesting and really dumb. The reason is that you pay about $50 for the set of Irwins, and then you spend HOURS fiddle-f*rting with them. Figuring your time at $3/hour, you may have an investment of $70 in the Irwins. Now if you get sick of them and decide to get some silk purses instead of some sow's ears, you couldn't get $5 for them.But if you just plunk down the $300 for the LNs in the first place, and use them for five years, you can still sell them on EBay for what you paid for them. And you had fun using them all that time. You can't beat that with a stick. But then again, maybe my upbringing was all screwed up, and I shouldn't think about life-cycle costs. Or maybe it was 28 years at NASA that drilled the idea of life cycle cost into my head. Have fun,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Hey Mel,
Interesting post.
I read the chisel article last night and thought, if you really read Chris' words he is careful to say that one size doesn't fit all. And the object was to identify a set of bench chisels that are the best all around performers. Or did I misread it?
Anyway, I liked what he had to say about the Grizzly chisels and would like to know more about these diamonds in the rough chisels. They are of the Japanese style and the price is right too. Might be able to get a good set without a lot of cash outlay - little risk and looks like it could be a good ROI.
Anyone have any experience with the Grizzly chisels?
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,No, I have no experience with the Grizzley chisels. I owned a set of Hirsch for years. They were very nice. I sold them to a friend on Knots, after I used the Lie Nielsens and fell in love with them. I also have experience with the Pfeil's here at Woodcraft. They are MUCH heavier than either the LNs or the Hirsch, which are identical to the Two Cherries. The Pfeils take a very nice edge, just like all of the Pfeil Swiss Made gouges. I also have experience with the Marples, now known as Irwins, and they are fine. They take a nice edge, but you have to sharpen them a bit more often than the more expensive chisels. It is not a coincidence that most woodworking schools use the Irwins. They work just fine. Practicing sharpening is a good thing. AND it is easier to spot them being stolen (nice blue handles.)
Hope that helps.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Okay, Mel, I'll bite.
First, I found the article. It was Lonnie Bird, and it's in PWW February '06 issue 153 on page 61 - "Modifying Stock Chisels." The theme is: tweaks to make the Marples better instruments for dovetail work. I strongly disagree that it is dumb or a waste of time. The work to shorten the handle and grind the blade would take all of 5-10 minutes per chisel. A set of Marples could be had for very little money; they were decent chisels (I have no clue about Irwin's version); and with these modifications, a beginner could have an excellent tool to get to work with with little outlay.
Second, I know you are fond of the idea that LN is a no lose situation, but I think you are ignoring the outlay side fo the equation. If having the cash in the first place didn't matter, we would all likely live in mansions covered with fine art and drive classic cars - as in most of these things tend to appreciate in value over time too.
Third, most of us who post here are just sincerely trying to relate what has worked for them in the hope that it would work for others too. In that vein, when I started woodworking in earnest (as opposed to just handyman or simple and crude stuff) about 15 years ago, I was steered to vintage stuff as a good bet, and followed up. Over time, I bought a set of 750s at between $3 and $10 apiece. They were so cheap because I looked for the good users that collectors wouldn't want - chipped laquer, missing leather bolsters, maybe stains (no rust or pitting) on the blade, etc. I cut off the bolster are and used a rasp and sandpaper to round the edge of the handles. These were my users for many years, and gave excellent service. Here's a shot of them with a 1" I plopped down $30 for as it was mint:
View Image
After reading the Bird article, I got out a Defiant model 750 I picked up for a buck at a flea market and tried grinding the sides:
View Image
It works great. I use it regularly.
Along the way I've bought some LN's and have amassed somes Swan and Witherby and Berg, Buck, etc. Some are better than others, and I'll admit that my 750's wouldn't be the chisels I'd pull out of the pile if someone said: "You can only keep one of each size. Choose!" That said, if I'd never bought any other chisels, it would not have negatively impacted my woodworking one bit.
Thanks for the chat.
Best,
Sean
Sean,
Don't take me too seriously. I take my woodworking seriously. But I don't take myself too seriously.
Loved your response. Nice photos. Great wisdom and logic to your words, as always.
BUT - I tried your wisdom and words, and while they worked for you, they didn't work for me. I started by listening to the folks who said that if you want a good set of chisels, go get some 750s or Witherbees. I had a list of "desirable" chisels. I went to EBay, and I found that every time I found something, it came bundled with something else, and I didn't know what appropriate bids were, and I couldn't tell if the quality was good enough, but I'd bid anyway, and then I'd get outbid. And I would go to antique stores and look through the chisels, and never found any of the "Good" ones.
I found that process to take a long time, and be very frustrating. If I look on EBay or in stores for something that I am well-versed in, I do ok, but when I go into the abyss, looking for something that I don't know much about, it doesn''t work well for me.
So after months of frustration, I bought a set of Hirsch from Lee Valley. Then I leard from Adam that the polished finish dubbed the finish, so I spent some time taking care of that. But they served me well until I met and fell in love with the Lie Nielsens. It took me minutes. I bought em cheap since I work at Woodcraft, and I have been living happily ever since.
So I don't recommend to others to do what didn't work for me -- looking for great old chisels.
Good to talk to you again.
Have fun.MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
So after months of frustration...
Months? How sad. Hopefully somebody will learn from this. There is no woodworking tool in the world worth months of effort to acquire, assuming work that could have been done has gone un-done in the meantime.
Boss,
"There is no woodworking tool in the world worth months of effort to acquire, assuming work that could have been done has gone un-done in the meantime."
I am merely a hobbyist, so efficiency is not a problem. I didn't let any work (fun) go undone. I had some old Marples and Craftsman chisels that did the job just fine, while I tried to get a "Good" set of chisels, as defined by some people on Knots, who said to get 750s or Witherbees, or.....
To tell a person who doesn't know about "chisel quality" to go get a nice set of old 750s on Ebay" is like telling a person who has never played cards, to "bid wisely" when you get to Vegas. WHAT DO THOSE WORDS MEAN?
Oh well. Nothing big was lost. I learned a lot, and got a bit wiser.
Life is good. Look at the alternatives.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel, Mel, Mel. Really? You knew brands and even types within the brands. You know what rust is, right? You know what pitting is, right? Cause avoiding rust and pitting, or some other gross fault, that's about all there is too it. I suppose it might also help if you can appreciate the difference between a pristine "new looking" tool collectors will covet (and bid up) and those that are a little rougher, but perfectly fine to use. I'm guessing you can discern that too.
Also, Ebay allows one to search completed auctions. You can quickly find out the range of recent sales prices of items that often repeat like say "stanley chisel" or "witherby chisel" with a simple 30 second search effort. You'll then know where to stop bidding. And if you are really cheap, consider bidding on those with no handles (those are typically a steal) and make your own. Another good idea for the cheap is to look for vintage chisels that are were made in the same era and look very similar to those you like in terms of style but have no name or less well known names - those are also next to nothing.
Samson,
Re: Ebay. I know how to use EBay, and look up prices of sold items, etc. What I found was that the prices were out of sight. Not prices that I wanted to pay. Back in the day when you bought your 750s etc, they were much more reasonable. No longer.
Actually, all I wanted was a "good" set of chisels, where "Good" meant a step up from the old Craftsman and Marples that I had. When I tried the Hirsch, I liked them, and they did a fine job for me, until I got the LNs.
To me, it wasn't worth the time to go through all that bother. I am not a chisel afficianado. I just wanted some reasonable users. The advice of of getting 750-s and Witherbees to achieve that meager goal was not useful. I still haven't tried any 750s or Witherbees so I still don't know what I am missing. If I get near your place sometime, I'll give them a try. Until them, my LNs do what I want them to do, and I enjoy knowing that I can double my money any time I want to sell them on Ebay.
Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
I think you have misunderstood my posts. I am not proselytizing vitage chisels or 750s or anything like that. Rather, I was trying to respond to your points in message 94 that tweaking inexpensive chisels was "dumb" and instead everyone should just buy LNs.
Edited 8/8/2008 3:56 pm ET by Samson
Samson,
I apologize for any misunderstanding. To make amends, I will take you to dinner the next time we get together. Marshall Mcluhan was correct. The medium is the message. I enjoyed the conversation, even if they may have been flaw in either the logic or in the transmission of information.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Besides thirteen carving tools (a modest assembly I can assure you), my chisel inventory consists of the following:
A set of five of the Marples Blue Chip chisels before the Irwin buyout (well before actually)
Three Sorby mortise chisels with the CAB (plastic) handles.
I had some duplicates in other brands and sold them. Who needs two quarter inch mortise chisels? I ain't no octopus.
I don't feel limited, constrained, hampered, or any other adjective you care to come up with. I feel liberated if anything. My shop is slick clean. If I empty the tool well you'd walk in and the only tool you would see would be my electric lathe. Everything else is in a tool chest. I could pack and move in less than an hour with one helper for the lathe and the benches. I feel great; I'm super productive when I'm in the shop, it just really peachy.
There is virtually nothing hanging on the walls except a large dry erase board.
Oops forgot about the clamps. Gotta lot of them on a rolling cart - a cart that Norm served up one Saturday morning.
Edited 8/8/2008 2:56 pm ET by BossCrunk
A set of five of the Marples Blue Chip chisels before the Irwin buyout (well before actually)
Three Sorby mortise chisels with the CAB (plastic) handles.
I have the same with the exception that my 3 mortise chisels are Crown which I admit won't hold an edge as well as those more expensive Sorby's you have there. But.. they still work.
With that said.. I do have a set of Ashley Isle's my BIL bought in gratitude of building him a work-bench. They are very nice but I seldom use them as the Marples are well suited and after 30 + years use appear they will last another 30 +. About 1 1/4" shorter than original but still a long way to go until the tang.
But I do often stare and touch the Bubinga handles as they are about as close to art as anything I own. ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
Sarge..
Read the post right above yours and say "Miyanaga Blue Kamji" (WTF?) as fast as you can six times.
I doubt if Toshio Odate is as well equipped as some of the toolsheds that post on this forum.
Those Crowns you have are fine. My tenon saw and dovetail saw are both Crown units. Not a damn thing wrong with 'em. Crown makes good value for the money as far as I'm concerned. If somebody says they can't get it done with Crown then they can't build in the first place, or they're some prissy-butt catalog queen or both.
I won't have to take my Cialis for at least a week knowing that there is a possibility that Tasai is offering a second quality chisel. How about you? I'm, err, aaaa, excited.
Edited 8/8/2008 3:41 pm ET by BossCrunk
"I doubt if Toshio Odate is as well equipped as some of the toolsheds that post on this forum."
There's a picture of Odate's shop in the current isse of WOODWORK on page 4. It's not particularly large, but it does have a very commendable number of saws and chisels all around the walls. It's very cool.
Edited 8/8/2008 3:43 pm ET by Samson
I saw the picture....I think he does some teaching in his studio and some of the tools you may be seeing are duplicates for the use of students. Don't quote me on it though.
Edited 8/8/2008 4:02 pm ET by BossCrunk
Oh, it doesn't matter much to me one way or the other. I have far more tools than I need, but I enjoy having them nonetheless. While no doubt there are some with big piles of tools who never make anything, there are also woodworkers who love tools, like trying new ones out, and also make things.
I see no great virtue in self-denial when it comes to tools, so long as one can afford it.
I have been buying Crown for around 37 years and agree. There may have been some changes in the recent years in there line as my mortise chisels were bought long ago along with a marking gauge and mortise gauge. I don't know as I really can't comment on the newer Irwin Marples as mine were purchased around 1976-77..?
I have never used the Crown saws.. I had a LN Independence DT but I really prefer an Irwin 19T pull saw. So.. I sold the LN as I just prefer the cheaper Irwin that is made in Japan and cuts on the pull stroke.
Just my preference and as some of the earlier post I made indicate... I don't feel it puts me at any dis-advantage at all. For that matter I know it doesn't.
Sarge..
You've obviously found a set of tools that work and that's what they're supposed to do.
It's a nice thing that they didn't break the bank either...
Don't know what exactly your referring to with the "Miyanaga Blue Kamji " comment, although the post was mine in response to another.
"Kamji" is nothing more than a wrought iron/steel laminate. It's what they are called to distinguish them from other blue or white steel Japanese chisels. Which I believe you already knew but others may not have. I would call them "Not LN 1/2 & 1/2s " if others would recognize the chisel.
Mine were all gifts given to me over the years as a gifts from a family member. I use them. I never said I wanted Tasai or had them. I also was pointing out to a previous poster that It would be doubtful if such a company would put out seconds as the poster suggested may be the case.
Either way, since they are reputed to be the zenith of chisels, I wondered why they were not covered in the article. Which is why I point them out.
All of which still reflects that the original subject of this post was the review and I contend wether or not someone has or doesn't have xyz chisel, all the Best (newly manufactured) were not remotely covered. The cover did not say some of the best or a "few of the best" review but was labeled "BEST Chisels On the Market"
Boss,
If you were to visit my house and say, "Mel, you make nice furniture.", I would be very proud. If you were to visit my shop and say, "I am impressed with your tools.", I't think you were nuts. My tools are not all that impressive, but they work pretty good after I learned how to use them.
Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
As I've mentioned before, when visiting a fellow woodworker I'm more interested in seeing his living room than I am his shop.
I think we're on the same page.
Edited 8/8/2008 5:19 pm ET by BossCrunk
Boss,
"I think we're on the same page."
Roger that.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
"There is virtually nothing hanging on the walls except a large dry erase board."
Wot, not even templates or patterns? What do you do in this shop-assemble coffins?
Come now dear Chap, time to dispell all the illusions you are building up and let folk see the Peachy Place and some examples of iconic work-please.
P.S . I think you should have got a set of the Marples chisels with the Butyrate handles, as these are superior and were in production well before the blue items. Philip marcou
Edited 8/9/2008 6:26 am by philip
Philip,"There is virtually nothing hanging on the walls except a large dry erase board."
Wot, not even templates or patterns?I believe you are onto something. FWW is always having surveys. How about a survey in which respondents answer with a photo of the wall nearest their workbench. Let's see how woodworkers "decorate" their shops?After that, I want to do a survey on "Shop rags". Who uses what kind of shop rags? New or used? Cotton only or mixed? Do you wash and reuse your shop rags or just throw them out.There are so many really important surveys that still need to be done. What about toothpicks? Do you use flat or round? or do you find that sometimes you need some of each to get just the right fit?Enjoy,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel, "Do you wash and reuse your shop rags or just throw them out."People throw them out?I have spent years getting old towels, shirt and sheets just right. Once they are optimum...the're MINE! Of course I wash them.
I hang em on the plane totes and to dry. The totes form fit after that.
The really shellacy ones, well I puts em on a stick for kind of a sculpture, then stick on a base and sell them at the fair. I think I could sell them to Gumps. Good money!edit:PS: Round for dowel holes, square for Arts/crafts.
BB
Edited 8/8/2008 8:28 pm by boilerbay
BB,
Well said.
Shop Rags are the lifeblood of fine woodworking.
We must select them, groom them, and help them grow in usefulness with each use. Shop rags are things of beauty to the true woodworker.
They are like buffalo to the American Indian.
No part of the shop rag shall be wasted.BB, I like your style,
Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,Thanks,I like yours to.As to toothpicks;As of course you are aware as per ascribed proper scientific method, there are many techniques to using the correct pick.
For instance regarding a screw hole...
If your not choosy of how a screw is to be finished in it's orientation to a stripped hole, use a square one, but if you want your screw to turn out properly, well then a round one must be used to fill the hole...
(rimshot)
The ones with olives on the bottom are another woodworking dilemma altogether. :)BB
B B,
I agree with the use of the rimshot.But I feel that toothpick technology is not progressing fast enough for fine woodworking. I may write to Lie Nielsen and Lee Valley to see if they would be interested in sponsoring the development of a "Best Toothpick" for woodworking. The toothpick would have a hardwood center surrounded by a layer of soft wood, thus allowing a better fit to develop when the screw is screwed back in or the dowel is inserted.NASA has some excellent instrumentation that could allow us to see how the shape of the toothpick changes under compression so that the proper proportion of soft to hard wood could be ascertained. I assume this Best Toothpicks will be quite pricey, but anyone willing to pay $150 for a chisel should be willing to pay $5 for a toothpick. Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,Since over the ages we have progressed from wooden planes to steel and bronze, not necessarily for the better, perhaps LN and LN might also explore the development of metal ones along with your handsome wood ones. I'm thinking of three or four in a set.
A A2 version for extended use. A HCS version for those more daily and softer needs. A bronze version for presentation and finally your wood version, with French polished shellac for the more traditional "Primus" type of woodworker. Maybe a fifth - of black iron to be used when in period costume.All could be put together in a small leather rig made from buffalo softened by Aleut molars (at a nominal extra cost) with belt loops so as to always have them at the ready. I'm thinking $378.00 for the set. Complete with Case - $1195.50.I think it could be a great money maker!Best
BB
Now, Mel, do you really want to increase the disposable content of that ra, er, magazine with even more surveys? Tsk tsk.
Rags in the shop? For normal woodworms I beleive having a source of actual cloth rags is a nice luxury, which can be enhanced
by knowing a lot of ladies, which one does if one selects one's customers properly.
In the absence of these circumstances then the next best thing is without doubt a supply of shavings-both handplane and machine plane-great for cleaning off wandering glue etc. I would expect an over-supply of this material in any decent shop not yet subverted by the WW. Taliban.
As for me , here in Kiwistan, I require all my own rags to walk around in due to reduced circumstances, so I was forced to buy a 50 kg bale of WASHED CLOTH RAGS which was a great buy because as you know I have a great many old (oily) machines and do some metal working now and again as well.And I use kerosene when I use my Kingstone.
P.S: the modus operandi for the Specially Purchased Rags is to frugally select them from bale, use them until toodirty, then wash them in batches in washing machine thereby extending run time by 100%.Philip Marcou
Philip,
I have always wondered how metal workers clean up their shops. Now the mystery is gone. With woodwork, all you need is a vacuum.
Have fun.
Mel Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Nope - templates are in boxes on a shelf under the bench. Smaller ones in shirt boxes, larger ones in flat carboard storage boxes.. The walls of the shop are plaster from 1946. It's not in the greatest shape so I don't put many nails in it.
Drafting table inside in the home office (as it were). Shop is not airconditioned. Lathe stand has drawers.
I did build the Norm clamp cart. I watch Norm, but not religiously.
Edited 8/9/2008 8:17 am ET by BossCrunk
"Illusions"..Boss Crunk, can you picture him sitting there on a Saturday morning watching Norm? Wow! I'll bet Boss built that clamp cart in 22 mins. too...ha,ha
B,
Hell no,Crunkles Crumpet don't need no stinkin clamp cart, that is fer danged sure.
But I would expect to see one or two beglued sash clamps hanging forlornly on a wall.....And "remember to git Jim Beam" scrawled on that ther blackboard.Philip Marcou
I don't believe he would have a television: I am influenced by
his writings under various pseudonyms. One picks up innuendoes, hidden agendas, little inconsistencies etc, you know.Philip Marcou
I think you missed on the Jim Beam, though. Way too proletarian. My guess is that the Boss would drink Johnny Walker Black. Not necessarily single malt but a decent Scotch, nonetheless. Not that this is meant to be advertising or anything, for such, though in point of fact, I have done an informal review of JWB and pronounce it: 1) drinkable; 2) stylish; and, 3) quite relaxing in an interesting sort of way.
Well I wouldn't want to be too unkind,(;) and as I said somewhere else, I'm just going on the cumulative image which has been put across-intentionally or otherwise.
Johnny Walker Black Label- I doubt it -too expensive, ditto red Label.
Possibly a compromise would be Wild Turkey?Philip Marcou
I was thinking his tastes probably ran towards white lightning in a mason jar, preferably made by someone who gnawed the kernels of corn off with his teeth and used his own urine as a solvent so as not to deprive anyone of ill gotten water. However his twisted morals would probably insist it had a tax stamp and was certified as not been given as a gift to anyone so as to assure he had not been overcharged as a result of their largesse.
................................................
You can't wait for inspiration. You have to go after it with a club. Jack London
>compromise would be Wild Turkey?<Aha! The Boss's favorite drink would be anything the client buys that he doesn't have to pay for.Before I was thinking of the "wine for lunch/ no more bologna sandwiches" posts, now I'm thinking of the many times he has said: "The best reward for a job well-done is the client's check being deposited into my bank account, not ridiculous comments by some pack of idiotic, ill-informed knot-heads ohhhing and ahhhing over a cheap snapshot of my work posted in the gallery." Or words to that effect.
Ah do beelieve that at least a "cheap snapshot" should appear in the gallery before there are any oohs and aahhs.Philip Marcou
On the bar at the moment:
Knob Creek bourbon, Tanqueray, Walker Black, Noilly Prat sweet and dry vermouth, Sky Vodka (I never drink Vodka), Myer's dark rum, Bacardi light rum.
Inventory is down.
I love making beer too, I have an all grain set up in the basement the centerpiece of which is a stainless 20 gallon tippy system beer sculpture with full digital package, four refrigerators, two kegerators, gas stove, bottling station, etc. Man cave.
We throw a big 4th of July beer tasting blowout. We probably served close to 400 gallons this year although a couple of friends pitched in some of their batches.
Edited 8/9/2008 12:49 pm ET by BossCrunk
So what kind of beer do you brew Boss?
My shop is decorated with beer signs since my wife won't let me put up naked pictures of her.
Mostly lagers - cold fermented beers. Within that group dozens and dozens.
Edited 8/11/2008 10:43 am ET by BossCrunk
Boss,
I've hardly ever met a beer I didn't like. Brown Derby, the old Safeway grocery store house brand was it. But I bet I could drink even that now.
More of an ale, porter, stout man myself, but, it's all good. Belgian lambic, not so much...
Cheers,
Ray the tippler
Yeah, I would have figured the Boss for an ale guy..but didn't think he would be drinkin' Belgians. Heard Belgium once described as the Disneyland of beers...after trying and enjoying about a hundred different brands I can see why.
If you can dream it, I can brew it. I probably should have chosen a career in the culinary field or finished up in Chemistry and pursued something in brewing.
Lots of Ph.D's working for big brewers.
Edited 8/12/2008 8:11 am ET by BossCrunk
Boss,
Chocolate oatmeal stout.
Breakfast, dinner and dessert, all in one bottle.
Ray
I've brewed my version of it at least thirty times over the years - 600 gallons or so.
Whose do you buy?
I usually do at least one batch for the Fall - for drinking with stews and such, cooking, etc. Mine has the barest hint of cinnamon and a few other very subtle surprises.
Edited 8/12/2008 8:27 am ET by BossCrunk
Boss,
The last I bought was an English brand, Samuel Smith's? Like his Taddy Porter, too. The last I drank, was given to me by a lady who brewed it herself, I got a case in trade for some woodwork; made her a couple curly maple corset inserts (buskins? gussets? gherkins?) and a gizmo for weaving some kind of lace type braid-- the thing had a hole in the center thru which the finished braid descended, and pins around its perimeter upon which the yarn or thread was wound and woven or knotted. It had a funny name too, winkle or something like that. Re-enactors are interesting folks.
I make my mom's fruit cake (old, old recipe) in the fall. Interested in a trade? Contact me off list, if you are.
Ray
No trade needed.... unless something unusual comes up, I'm going to do a batch in September. I'll send you some - don't tell the feds. I might use you as a Guinea Pig - I was thinking about making a change or two to the recipe (I don't tinker with woodworking tools but I tinker like hell with beer recipes).
I love a good fruitcake though...
I've made a helluva lot of fruit beers over the years. I might throw in something for you to taste.
When I have these discussions I call everything beer - even if it's technically an ale, stout, etc.
Edited 8/12/2008 9:01 am ET by BossCrunk
Boss,
I'll look forward to tasting it.
Ray
Boss,
If you can get it, try Anderson Valley oatmeal stout, one of the best I've had...unfortunately it's no longer available in Indiana.
I'll keep it in mind.
My Son-In-Law has a PHD something in early child education.. He is a wonderful man. And then some.. A really nice man... Must be.. My daughter loves him and so do the children..
I can get more from an IceCream Cone than all his talking!
More of an ale, porter, stout man myself, but, it's all good.
Ray
I've always known that I liked you (No warm shower comments, please!!) Ales, porters, stouts, and an occasional single malt. Now we're talking. Add to that some smoked pheasant, or some smoked salmon.......I'm in. Who's bar are we bellyin' up to?
Jeff
I am a bit of a "stout" man myself and getting to the point that I can belly up to anything with the best of them. Oh wait you were talking about alcohol? I thought this was talking about weight. :)
Doug
I've packed on 20 extra myself. That's 20 extra above and beyond the 20 extra I already had.
Time to run around the block a few thousand times.
Jeff
Jeff,
Man I'm glad I don't play left wing this year! Someone's gonna get hip checked.
:-)
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob
I'm actually training right now because I'm coming out of retirement this fall. I'll be playing men's league again after a 3 year absense. My suspension has been lifted, and I'm getting ready to go!!
I wish I could find a 40 n' over league, but around here, there aren't any. It's back to chasing the kids around, but I do get even in the corners and in front of the net.
:)
Jeff
Jeff,
I hear ya 'bout the over 40 thang. At my age the mind is willing but the flesh is weak! Slap a few in for the Giffer whilst ya watch the kids fly by.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Jeff,
Someone told me the reason I don't like Scotch whiskey, is that I've never tasted any good scotch. Tastes like burnt cardboard to my uneducated palate, and I've tried to like it. Bourbon suits me better, or the Irish stuff. Being true to my roots I guess. But bring some by, and we'll belly up with your single malt, and my Evan Williams, or maybe some Copper Fox.
Ray
Ray
Yep, that blended stuff tastes like the inside of a goats a$$ to me. I'll bring by some 18 yo Glen Morangie, the stuff that's been sitting inside a toasted sherry cask, and we'll see if your eyes don't lighten up just a wee bit.
We've got a microbrewery here that makes a stout called "Wee Stout". It has quickly become one of my favorites. I tried to send a bottle of it (They sell it in gallon jugs for takeout) to Lee Grindinger back when he lived in Montana, but they couldn't send it out of state. Something bout' the dang liquor laws and distribution rights, etc..... Bunch of bs if you asked me. I was gonna just bring him a bottle, but he up and moved to the Caribbean, so that's out.
One of these days, we'll have a wee get together, and sample all these goodies.
Jeff
Just wanted to point out real quick like that Lonnie's solution to the marples issue was developed well before LN came out with their chisels. I think it would be more accurate to say that he modeled his method on the the Stanley 750's.Chris
Chris,"Just wanted to point out real quick like that Lonnie's solution to the marples issue was developed well before LN came out with their chisels. I think it would be more accurate to say that he modeled his method on the the Stanley 750's."Thank you for pointing that out.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
"There's a lot more to a chisel than edge holding. And I think Chris did a good job stating as much in his article."
Agreed, but I still think that a chisel that won't hold a decent edge, no matter how good the balance, bevel grind, ferrule design, or choice of wood (or plastic) in the handle isn't worth a dang, no matter how cheap or expensive, and makes all of its other qualities moot.
To me, this is the prime purpose of a chisel, and (as another poster pointed out) even though honing on a strop, fine arkansas, fine sandpaper, etc... may take but a few moments, if you have to do that constantly those moments add up to a bunch of time. Again, just my opinion, but it's dang frustrating to not be able to make it through chiseling out the small amount of waste left by the coping saw in just one half of one of the 4 joints of a dovetailed drawer without the chisel edge rolling over and starting to tear out the endgrain.
I wouldn't recommend the Craftsman in fact, Adam. But I would not recommend to someone that couldn't afford more due to circumstances "to not purchase it" if they could afford it and not another. It will cross-cut.. rip.. cut joints the same as any other saw as I had one for 15 years that replaced a circular saw under a sheet of ply.
Facts are.. the circular under ply cross-cuts.. rips and will do joints and I did not waste one moment with either waiting until I got the money to put quality in it's place. I have seen a false stigma created that lures those new or with little experience to think they must have quality tools to cover every operation... must have all the jigs used in a life-time in place.. must have the shop properly lit.. organized.. wired.. etc. etc. before they can build anything.
I think that is an in-justice to anyone just getting started as it delays what is more valuable.... experience. You can talk about it all day.. every day on a forum but until you put yours hands to the task.. you will never gain experience that is required to reach suitable finish.
Hope to see you do an article on why a tool cost what it does for the price as I feel sometimes some are riding Brand XXX name and not necessarily offering the value that should be associated with a higher price. Do the article and call a "spade a spade".. I will read it and you have my word on it.
Regards...
Sarge..
Edited 8/6/2008 3:46 pm ET by SARGEgrinder47
I think we've had this exact same discussion regarding planes. I was arguing your side, and I'm now arguing Mel's. :)I'm not at all confident that anything I say makes sense for the beginner woodworker. In fact, I don't think I've ever met a beginning woodworker (and I meet a lot of woodworkers)! And I've never seen data about financially struggling woodworkers. Woodworkers tend to be affluent.I think if cost is an issue, you are better off buying second hand high quality tools. If cost is not an issue, you are probably better off buying new high quality tools. I don't think a good argument can be made for buying poor quality tools under any circumstance. There's always a high quality alternative. In my case, I had to learn what second hand tools were good, what to look for, how to restore them etc. So I exchanged time that I had, for money I had not. And with the advent of ebay and internet sellers, that's an option people now enjoy the world round.Adam
I'll toss my $0.02 into the kitty (and that's about all it's worth). I used an old cruddy set of Craftsmans starting out and was pretty frustrated. To the point I avoided doing hand tool tasks like the plague. Poor beginners sharpening skills combined with chisels that were pretty miserable at taking and holding an edge when you did manage to get it right was a real exercise in patience. Then I upgraded to a set of Marples blue chisels and used them for years (and still do). By then the sharpening skills were getting better but they were better chisels too. More hand tool work started to follow. But it increasingly seemed to be that I was spending way too much time keeping them sharp. I started hearing things like edge retention and recommendations on better chisels and finally took the plunge and got a set of Lie Nielsens. Could not get the handles to stay seated in the sockets until I finally epoxied them, but other than that they're the best thing I've ever used. They take a razor sharp edge better than the Marples and keep it longer. It's a real joy now to do chisel work and it's gotten to be a first choice over machine methods. Did I need a set of LNs to do good work? Nope, but it sure does make doing hand tool work much more enjoyable. So I guess the higher price was worth it.If you build it he will come.
Perhaps we do see things from two different sides of the railroad track, Adam.
42800.65 in reply to 42800.64
"I'm not at all confident that anything I say makes sense for the beginner woodworker. In fact, I don't think I've ever met a beginning woodworker (and I meet a lot of woodworkers)! And I've never seen data about financially struggling woodworkers. Woodworkers tend to be affluent"... Adam
***
That suggests that perhaps you have been involved in magazine contributions.. museum works.. and in general with those that have been around the game awhile and risen above the status quo. And perhaps it suggest I have been to a few more large, but local WW clubs.. where many young and new WW'ers show up each week with a "dollar".. a hope and a prayer.
To say WW'[ers tend to be Affluent does suggest that to me. I probably spend more time trying to sway many people away from purchasing Harbor Freight tools with exactly the theory you mentioned as you do responding to using hand tools of good quality in various sources in the world you are accustomed too. But I don't discourage them with you shouldn't get started until you have enough knowledge to buy used quality or afford new quality. I just encourgage them to get the best they can afford and get their hands dirty.
Similar to a politician that in public states the economy is not all that bad as he see's it. He see's things from behind a + $100 K pay-check. That indicates he is far removed from the reality of what is happening to multitudes that don't make in excess of or less than $60 K a year to support an entire family. But they do have to fill up their own gas tanks at $4.00 a gallon and they do to eat. They have actually been inside a a grocery store to see food prices rise drastically in the last year as they don't have a government expense account that covers them. The reality being the politician making the statement lives in a bubble as this happens daily with people outside his own bubble. Families are being economically strangled but it doesn't look all that bad from his seat on the hill above that.
So yes... we may see things from a different point of view depending on what circle of Affluence you and I travel within. That perhaps is the reality.. ?
Regards...
Sarge..
Edited 8/6/2008 11:08 pm ET by SARGEgrinder47
Geeesh Sarge,
For once I hear the words of a realist. How refreshing to hear some real common sense for a change.
Too bad you wouldn't stand a pee holes chance in snow of running for office!
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Well.. thanks Bob. I don't think I have what it takes to become a politician or a used car salesmen. I was instructed at an early age that telling lies would get you in trouble... and that was re-enforced with a hickory stick that would change the natural color of your bottom to a glowing cherry red. : > )
You can put a well designed military uniform on someone.. put well designed.. quality.. high tech weapons in their hands but.... that does not automatically relate to making them a combat soldier. A combat soldier has to be willing to get his hands dirty 24/7.. take what's available (field expediency at it's finest) and is expected to produce outstanding results under what might be considered not ideal conditions.
Some are cut in that mold and some aren't I suppose...
Sarge..
Echo that Sarge.Semper FiDoc
to boiler and sarge:
Thank you, and God bless.
Patrick
Thank you, sir...
Sarge..
Thank you,"Doc'
Hmmmm... Doc's are supposed to fix em and then write up the heart.. not recieve them. :>) Do you suppose when "we chose" (hee....) I Corp DMZ as our vacation paradise that we could have consulted with the wrong travel agent? ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
Ya da man along with all the other Marines I worked with and beside, Doc...
Highest Regards...
Sarge..
Sarge,Back at you!Didn't look like you went to Fort Lauderdale either :)Ah, the wonderfull subtropics, the gentle rain, the mildew of paradise.
All the bamboo a woodworker could ever want. (great Tonkin cane for fly rods!) Also Teak.I "put in" for a wooden minesweeper in New York Harbor. Supposed to play poker for a four years. Then these bothersome orders to get close to some jarheads in Camp Lejune...Didn't bode well...
That was the end of "Anchors Away" and the start of "From the Halls of Montezuma"I think Cosby's response of "take two asprins and call me in the morning!"is what I should have said...More lucky than many, I still have everything I was born with...well...
not so much hair on top and liver spots on my...But thats another flitch of veneer.Doc
Class of 67-68
I was on the "Z" also, Doc. Just outside Quang Tri fire-base which was 3rd Marine Div. HQ and we were under tactical command of 3rd Marines. So.. if I mention Leather-neck Square.. Dong-ha.. Cam-Lo.. C-2.. C-3.. C-4.. Khe-Sahn.. etc. you know where I mean.
Actually my M 40 Sniper rifle was Marine issue as the Army didn't have a dedicated at that time.
Whatever.... :>)
Sarge..
All of them and some. Remember Long Vei and that little country to the left we "never" went into? Still won't admit to?Ah!, the joys of earlier morning hiking on mountain paths. Valdari, valdara, my knapsack on my back.As we used to say on the horn, "what the ***K, over? :)))))and now back to our programming. Chisels are, as Tom Nielsen said...Doc
I'm much less confident than you are about what is in their best interests. Experience is a great teacher. But experience with a bad tool can be poor experience (hand saws stink- I need something with a cord on it). In previous threads on similar subjects (but usually about planes), folks have suggested that tuning an old tool is an important rite of passage. It teaches us about the tool, how it's supposed to work, what limits it's functionality etc etc. No kidding people are impatient. They want to know which catalog to to choose and which item number is best. It sure is faster to go to the store or order online. But I question whether that's a faster route to their destination. Sounds like I'm leaning one way and I've certainly written about the merits of the tool restoration approach, but I'm not entirely certain about it.Adam
I think something to keep in mind here is that very few people do wood working because they have to. By this I mean to say build a raft to get off Giligan's Island. Most of use either do this because we love it (as a hobby) or for a living or both.
For those that love it using a bad tool takes the fun out. And should be avoided as such. I mean if it is not fun why do it?
For those that get paid to do this, they need good tools because the need to make it right the first time (with few/no mistakes) and do it in a speedy manor so they can make money.
Or in some cases both of the above applies. But either way, a bad tools in not something anyone want to use. This does not mean that you have to have the best but finding out where the quality vs the cost is equal, is something we each in the end have to do for ourselves.
Doug Meyer
I'm much less confident than you are about what is in their best interests. Experience is a great teacher. But experience with a bad tool can be poor experience ... Adam
So... should someone wait until they can afford a quality tool and formal instruction before they set out on a WW journey? If I had done that in 1972 it would have delayed the experience factor around 15 years probably. And I might have abandoned the passion long before that.
But.. I didn't. I took what I had available.. put it in my hands and made it work. And I gained experience along the way while figuring out what would be a better way or tool. Most through trial and error as formal instruction was almost not available in the U.S. at that time.
The fact is most (not all as someone who gets involved latter in life as we see a lot of now) cannot afford top quality and doesn't know how to look for good used tools. So... do they wait or do they employ now with what they can afford?.....
"a bad tools in not something anyone want to use. This does not mean that you have to have the best but finding out where the quality vs the cost is equal, is something we each in the end have to do for ourselves".
Doug Meyer........
Doug has made an excellent point. It is not my intent nor do I crusade to tell anyone what is in their best interest. But.. I do encourage them and tell them that you can achieve results even with a less than quality too. But in the end as Doug stated... they make a decision for them-selves.
I have pushed safety on these forums for about 6 years. And I have pasted information about tools that I have looked at first hand to those that aren't in a position to do so as there area cannot provide side by side comparison. I have written several un-biased reviews of tools on several forums that I don't get a penny for as you doing WW mag articles.
I will be at the International WW Show in Atlanta in 2 weeks demonstrating tools for a manufacturer. I have received over 40 e-mails asking me to drop by Booth xxx to look at a tool under the hood for those that can't do that. I have in the past and I will continue to do so in the future. But.. in the end they make their own decision based on what they feel is best for them with their money they have at the time.
As I stated.. we probably travel in different circles. I know more about you than you know about me I suppose. But.. for those that do know me.. they know I will go out of my way to scrutinize a tool for them that they are considering simply because it is my nature to help my neighbor if I can. And I don't accept tips... ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
Regards...
Sarge..
I have not yet read the article but I'll bet they left out MY chisels - Nooitgedagt. They are SIMPLY the BEST, and without even reading the article, I already feel slighted at being left out. Dutch-made, Swedish steel that polishes like glass. Wooden handles that allow an excellent excess of ergonometric exactitude. And if you don't feel like paring a paper thin shaving, then just saying the name brings a certain amount of pleasure: Nooitgedagt. Tell me that doesn't sound like something that would hurt wood.- posted tongue-in-cheek, Edhttp://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=27646
Weren't those the official chisels of the "Luftwaffe" at one time, Ed? :>)
Regards..
Sarge..
I can neither confirm nor deny, Sarge,....impressive medals you got there - they don't give those out just for showing up - some they do, but those they don't,...Regards, Ed
Ed,
Is that pronounced "nooky-get-it's?But seriously do you have a link? like to see such beasties.BB
Sorry I don't, and I'm about 2300 miles away from home or I'd take a picture. In reality, they are about comparable to Marples Blue Chips, I think. The wooden-handles ones are real long - cross between a basic bench chisel and a paring chisel. Take care, Ed
I'm looking for some new long ones. Low angle for paring. Like the Spruce but less spendy.BB
BB, I did bring a basic kit of handtools with me to MT, and it turns out one of the Nooitgedagts is in it. I use it for letter carving when the main stems are 1 1/4 inch. Photo with other chisels I considered indispensable enclosed. Left to right: Nooitgedagt 30 mm, Marples 30 mm, Sandvik 25 mm (needs handle), Sandvik 12 mm (new handle), Two Cherries 10 mm, Millers Falls 1/4 inch (new handle), E A Berg 6 mm, Ray Isles Mortice chisel.
Along with about 25 or so carving tools, this is sort of an essential kit for handtool work, for me.
Take care, Ed
The two cherries which is 5th from left looks like the Narex somewhat that Highlands sells. I tried the Narex there and really not that bad for $6 a pop.
And where are you in MT.. with tools? School.. etc.? Would love to be there as I haven't been up that way in 15 years. Beautiful place and love seeing mountain rams pop up any place.. any time. :>)
Sarge..
House-sitting for a friend in Western MT. We had to euthanize one of my two Golden Retrievers after I got here - poor guy just got sicker and sicker and was in constant pain. She let me bury him by her garden gate.Not the greatest of starts but I love looking up at the mountains and maybe he does too. Like you said years ago, Sarge, when you have an animal as a pet, it's a lifetime commitment.
That's sad, Ed. After my last female sheppard died about 3 years ago.. I don't plan to replace after almost 40 years of devotion to 5 with a few of my wife's felines thrown in. We still have a feline but "it is a commitment" for those that love animals.
But pehaps better there with you than you had come back to the fact. But heart-breain' just the same. And BTW.. you aren't missing a thing wtih the heat and humidity.
Regards and condolence's....
Sarge..
Ed,Thanks for the photo and the effort. It does seem very similar to the Marples. I guess I'm either going to continue my search or spring for some that are little bit up the ladder both in length and $. Cost* is a consideration but finding a good set is the priority.
Had I, like most here, not already had a set of Marples, I think the Nooitgedagts would be a good set to have for a good general all around tool.Thanks againBB*not like a Tasai Damascus@ $391.00 for a single 1/2 inch paring chisel- good grief!
If you want to consider Japanese chisels, check out The Japan Woodworker and Tools for Working Wood.
A lot of Japanese chisels are high-end, hand-made by a master blacksmith, highly ornamental, and hellishly expensive. But a lot of those same master blacksmiths make a "second" line of chisels that are just as good from the standpoint of the blade and the finish grinding, but without the ornamental iron work and ebony handles, and are a whole lot cheaper. They're generally competitive with reasonably good quality western manufactured chisels, though not with the mass-produced plastic handled versions.
dkellernc,Thats what and where I was referring to. I have quite few Miyanaga Blue Kamji Chisels already. Those are dear enough. I have never heard of Tasai having or producing any second level set. Perhaps they do but as I said the Miyanagas are more than spendy enough.For me, the balancing act on Kamjis is labor intensive. Not so with normal blue or white steel where you can just rough grind on a wheel and finish on stones to your hearts content -if they are flat bottomed - most Japanese chisels are hollow bottomed. You do that on kamji and in short order, you wouldn't have very much chisel left. I only use them on softer woods they were designed for. The 30-35 degree (they vary by width) main bevels are the price you pay with kamji. The Tasai are for hardwoods. I would never buy them. I have two Crowns, some butts,Marples and a few old but great orphans, one or two specialties plus the "blues".
Most work is done with old western chisels.BB
Edited 8/8/2008 5:10 pm by boilerbay
"I only use them (Miyanaga Blue Kamji Chisels) on softer woods they were designed for."Actually, there is no reason to believe that Japanese chisels were designed for or only should be used for softwoods. That's a common misconception. Hardwoods have been used in Japanese woodworking through the ages. A search of antique Japanese furniture will turn up pieces made with keyaki (zelkova), and chestnut (kuri), both of which are hardwoods.But an even more obvious example is that the bodies of Japanese planes are almost exclusively made of Japanese white oak. The same chisels that are used to chop out the opening of these wooden plane bodies are the same ones that are used on softwoods.I have Imai chisels that are about $50 apiece, made with white steel. They do a great job in white oak.
Hi Ed
Nooitgedacht, eh?
Hey, I used to have a set of those. They were the rage of Badger Pond several years ago. Bought them on eBay for the princely sum of $28 for 8 chisels (1/4" through 1 1/4"). Their handles resembled those of the Bergs, and the steel was reported to be Swedish, although the tools were from the Netherlands. They were closer to firmer chisels than parers, and held an edge about the same as my Stanley yellow handles. I sold the Nooitgedachts and kept the Stanleys.
BB, it is pronounced "Noy-t-ge-duh-g-t", where the "g" is a gutteral "ch/g". Hard to get that one - it is like clearing the throat!.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Edited 8/7/2008 9:26 pm ET by derekcohen
Thank you Mel and I agree with what you said. Maybe the basis for how we evaluate was formed in a time when reaching the finishing line did not have to be evaluated with read-outs of performance in turn one.. turn two.. turn three.. etc.. Your goal was to just get there first by whatever it took and whatever was available to do so. :>)
I noticed post #48 by the Boss was deleted. Now there's someone who just gets to the point without careful examination of how to get there or whose toes you have to step on to do so.
Diplomacy.... well..??... getting to the point.... the shortest line from A to B regardless of how. :>)
Regards...
Sarge..
Sarge,
I miss the Boss. He was active on Knots when I joined. I read everything he wrote. He even wrote to me once. I was worried, but he wrote to say that he liked my joke.Someone had asked what chisels are best for making mortices. I answered that the chisels didn't make much difference. The important thing was to lay out all of the lines very carefully and precisely. You need to use a lot of rigor in this process. That is how the phrase was coined:
"Rigor mortice". The Boss liked my joke. I was thrilled.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
I don't yet have the issue, but I do have one word: Barr 'They take a licking and keep on chipping'
I keep hearing that the Barr chisels are the way to go for strong edge holding steel. I have been thinking about getting a set for working with oak and osage orange. Does anyone have any experience that would support or undermine that line of thought?Joe
I don't yet have the issue, but I do have one word: Barr 'They take a licking and keep on chipping'
Hi Ed
What does that mean?
The article did not appear to rate the Barr chisels as highly as I expected in regard to edge holding. I thought that this would be their strength?
Incidentally, does anyone know if Barr makes custom sizes or customs handles? I contacted him in this regard and he did not reply - perhaps I insulted him by asking?
Regards from Perth
Derek
Derek
Of all the chisels I own, the Two Cherries set I bought about 15 years ago are still the undisputed kings of my shop for edge retention. They outlast my LN's probably 2 to 1. I had an expensive set (which I recently sold) of Nishiki's dovetail chisels were equal to the task, but they cost $800.00 for 6 chisels. So, in my opinion, they are not a fair comparison.
Similar to Samson's experience, I wasn't too pleased when I first got my LN chisels. However, after a couple of sharpenings, I seemed to get rid of the weaker, more brittle steel, and they are much better now.
Jeff
Yes and I have some of them older Blue chisels that work GREAT!
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