What degree is best for grinding the bevel on a general purpose chisel?
Thanks
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Replies
What defines "general purpose"?
I have a couple of Stanley yellow handled jobbies that are used for anything from removing wall plugs in brick wall to chopping dados and tenons in green fence timber. I hollow grind them at about 30 degrees.
My Japanese bench chisels are treated with more care - used inside the workshop only - and are also ground at 30 degrees.
Regards from Perth
Derek
For general woodworking purposes i.e paring, levelling, moderate chopping and levering..... "grind at 25 degrees and hone at 30 degrees". The makers used to write that on them and it's still a good rule today.
I have a set ground at 25° for paring, and a set ground at 30° for general bench work like chopping dovetails, etc...
At 25°, you will find that most tool steel, even on some expensive chisels, will be a bit more brittle, and require more frequent sharpening.
At 30°, your edge retention will be better, but the chisel won't be as effective at paring and the like.
That's why I have more than 1 set. (4 sets, actually) However, I use my chisels almost every day. If you don't, I'd suggest 30°, with at least 1, around 1/2", ground to 25° for when you need to pare.
Jeff
The question is, of course, "what is general purpose?" I use my chisels mostly for paring (without a hammer) 25 degrees seems good for that. If you are beating on the chisel (everyone does at some time) maybe 30 degrees is a better choice.
BTW, I don't hone my chisels at a different angle but try to keep the blade at the same angle throughout the sharpenning process. I have given up on honing guides or sharpenning machines. Now I do it all by hand. In my opinion, when you have practiced enough, that's the way to go. Just be patient! And have fun (I really have fun sharpenning, it is a mindless exercise, yes, but it takes some thought and discipline to do it right) Also: when you finally "get it" that gives tremendous satisfaction. I am some percentage of the way there! Maybe 45%, that's satisfaction in itself!
I would second everything you've said about sharpening..I started down the sharpening path using honing guides but one day got tired of setting them up..after taking a class with David Marks and watching him resharpen my block plane blade I had a new appreciation of sharpening even though I''d watched several DVDs and watched others sharpen just using a grinding wheel...then in Berea I bought an 8000 grit Shapton and suddenly I have to search for areas on my forearm for hair cause I've pretty much used it up..I find sharpening a mindless pleasure and love to put on some music in the shop and set to...I feel like I've finally mastered a woodworking skill...now on to compound miters and dovetails...
Neil
I agree with Phillip, grind at 25° hone at 30°
mike
Anyone ever grind with a hand crank grinder?
>Anyone ever grind with a hand crank grinder?<Absolutely, all the time, every day and twice on Sundays. Hand crank grinders are one of the best things that you can have. If you get an edge to where it is fairly "sharp" coming off the grinder, and has a relatively big, well-defined burr, then it is easy-peasy, child's play (and fast) to make it razor sharp or better with (oilstones) or whatever you use.The only tricky part is getting used to holding the chisel or plane blade with one hand on the tool rest while you turn with the other. Burning the edge is not so much of an issue for you.Heck, hand cranked grinders are so handy and useful that once Lee Valley or Clifton makes one out of solid bronze and charges about $850 for it, Lataxe will probably buy one!Good luck"Yes, but what's good for me ain't necessarily good for the weak-minded." - Augustus McCrae, Lonesome Dove
Ah! Very encouraging. Do you just learn how to hold the chisel properly (square) on the tool rest, or do you use fancy jigs to secure it in place?
No fancy tool rests, but I do have the one that came with the grinder adjusted square and 'eyeballed' to 30 degrees. If I want 25 degrees, I just 'eyeball' it a little shallower. You have to learn how to move the edge back and forth and grind it square - you probably need a small engineer's square nearby to periodically check your progress. You also need a wheel dresser to dress the grinding wheel true and remove the little tiny flakes of metal that get ground off - this is important. Even with all this - much quicker. I will never go back to grinding the whole flat bevel with a honing jig like I did the first few years. That takes too long."Yes, but what's good for me ain't necessarily good for the weak-minded." - Augustus McCrae, Lonesome Dove
Thank you.
---Pedro
An alternative to periodically checking with a square is to paint some "blueing" on the surface then with a small machine square draw a line across the end of the chisel with a scratch awl... then you can just grind to the line...saves a few seconds of checking and rechecking with the square.
Neil
neil,Squaring the end of the chisel is important, but doing it requires neither checking with a machinist's square frequently or scribing a line in blueing, using said square. It's only necessary to check the thing once, at the end, and after you train your eye to do it, it's hard to get it wrong.Like learning to free-hand hold a chisel on the tip and heel of the bevel's hollow grind to hone it, it takes a little time to develop the coordination, but any one can do it. Like riding a bicycle, it seems impossible until the skill "clicks in," then it never goes away.If the front and back face of a chisel are parallel, it's fairly easy to hold the chisel straight to the wheel, both line up visually. When the faces are out of parallel, the chisel's shaft MUST be skewed to the wheel in order that the end wind up square to the shaft, since the front face will tilt the end out of square if the shaft is kept lined up with the wheel.In either case, the "trick" is to watch the end of the chisel and the wheel simultaneously. It's necessary to constantly look at both sides of the wheel, edge-on, as guides AND the chisel edge. You can SEE the edge staying straight across the face of the wheel. It's a right brain kind of thing. It's hard to describe how those 3 edges just merge into a guiding pattern if you sort of relax and let them "take over." The eye has this remarkable ability to see squareness very, very accurately. And it doesn't matter where you have to hold the chisel shaft to get the edge square. Its the same "trick" that Frank Klaus uses to "see" the layout lines and to hold the saw square and perpendicular to the work with no layout lines what-so-ever when he cuts dovetails.Rich
Hey Rich,
I'm sure you're right but I think what you're referring to is experience...I just started using my grinding for shaping..up to this point my experience was only with water stones then my wife use my old Stanley beaters to chip off some grout from the tiled porch..needless to say there was no way to sharpen them just using waterstones so I tried to do it on my grinding wheel and really made a mess of it...when I was in Berea, I took a "hands on" course from L Williams and D McConnell on how to use the wheel...so now the beaters are as sharp as any of my "good" chisels and I feel like I know what I'm doing...probably will eventually go to sharpening them by eye.
Neil
Neil,What we showed at Berea was a system that will work with almost any edge tool and will greatly help to avoid any overheating. One can grind a complex moulding plane iron, a skewed iron, a wide plane iron or a regular chisel using those techniques and get very good predictable results every time. All the guess work goes away.
So what's the secret? Joel wrote a nice article on this a while back in FWW, waht would you add or modify?
Best,
---Pedro
I'm trying to remember Joel's article. I think my main disagreement with Joel is that I think a single point diamond dresser is a lot easier to use than one of the multiple diamond rectangular dresser. The single point dresser also creates a more aggressive and cooler running grinding wheel with the added advantage of having a much longer life.I think the most important parts of grinding are to keep a coarse wheel dressed and establish the location of the new cutting edge by grinding at 90º to the face of the iron or tool before grinding the bevel. I like to use red machinist's layout fluid to mark the desired profile or edge I work to and to also paint the flat created when grinding to establish the new edge. Grind the bevel only until the flat at the new edge location is a faint red hair line. Keep in mind that grinding is a rough shaping operation and you don't sharpen with the grinder. The actual sharpening is done with honing stones. For most profiled irons a flex shaft grinder that accepts 1/4" grinding points and rubberized abrasives is a very useful tool.
Interesting. Thanks for the reply. So what sort of grinder do you use then? Is it commercially available or did you put it together yourself?
Thanks Larry. I figure on getting a machine and am leaning towards a hand-crank item with a six inch wheel. But it sounds like advocate something more cylindrical in nature. Also,where do you get your dresser from?
Best,
---Pedro
Pedro,I demonstrated on a cheap Grizzly grinder. I have modified it, it's one with a 2" belt. I put some better homemade tool rests on it and stood the belt portion up more vertical. I prefer a high speed grinder with the coarsest gray wheels I can get. I use a 3/4" carat diamond dresser that Grizzly sells for about $11.I've attached a photo of the modified grinder and the tool rest mounted on the belt section. Tool rests on most grinders leave a lot to be desired and you'll probably have to replace them even on more expensive grinders. Avoid aluminum for tool rests, the grit gets embedded in them and makes them hard to use. I've made two-piece rests for both the wheel and belt portions of the grinder. The rest for the wheel is bigger as seen in the photos. We have other grinders but we like to show this can be done with minimal investment.
At last: someone else in this forum who appreciates the potential of a belt grinder, even if it is a mini.
And it is not a belt sander, or a linisher.
Whilst in the area I would also like to add that a single point diamond dresser is more versatile than a multi point tee bar type but is is good to have both because with the single point you can quickly free hand shape a wheel to a desired profile and use the flat face of a multi to get flat surfaces where required eg if you wanted a vee profile wheel.Philip Marcou
Larry,
Enjoyed your conversation with Pedro. I think I can sharpen my plane irons and chisels pretty well now. I have a number of old moulding planes that I would like to sharpen. I have flattened the backs of their irons, but haven't yet tackled the bevels. I see you mentioned the use of a Dremel-like tool for this. I have a Dremel. Can you expand a bit, or give me a reference on the process? I would guess that you put the iron in a vice, and move the Dremel by hand. What are the grinding bits that you use? (composition, size, shape? Any info will be appreciated.
Thanks,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,Answering everything you've asked would take quite a lot of writing. I'm not sure I have time because of pressing deadlines. I'd have to add quite a few photos because I don't know proper names for grinding point shapes and I doubt how universal the nomenclature is. Most of the points I use are cone or "tree" shaped. I use both vitrified aluminum oxide points and rubberized abrasives. The rubberized points most often available are from Cratex and I use some of those but prefer the house brand sold by MSC Industrial Supply. The Aluminum oxide points are made of the same material you'll find in a gray grinding wheel and the rubberized abrasives are more for a honing type of operation followed by slip stones.A Dremmel won't take 1/4" shank points. Early one I tried one and gave up on it. The flex shaft grinders have a variable speed foot control that's incredibly helpful and allows a lot of control. I hand hold both the iron and the hand-piece while wearing a jeweler's magnifying hood to watch what I'm doing. It's all pretty simple.After you've done all the necessary tuning of the profile of the molding plane, flatten the face of the iron and scribe the profile of the sole on the face of the iron using layout fluid. I prefer red because it makes things easier. Grind to your scribe lines at 90º to the face of the iron. Then paint the flat you've created when reestablishing the location of the cutting edge. Remove the remaining layout fluid on the face of the iron on a honing stone. Then just grind the bevel free-hand.Don't overlook a shaped narrow grinding wheel to grind shape the concave portions of the bevel on your bench grinder. Tools for Working Wood had put in a stock of pretty nice narrow grinding wheels just for this. Your normal grinding wheel is helpful for the convex profiles. The bench grinder is a lot faster than the flex shaft grinder when you can use it.Fordom is probably the best known of the flex shaft grinders. They are relatively expensive. Grizzly makes one that sells for around $50 but it only takes 1/8" shank points. Flex shaft grinders often have interchangeable hand-pieces and both the Fordom and the Grizzly have this feature. Grizzly copied the Fordom well enough that the hand-piece for a Fordom will fit the Grizzly. You can get a Fordom hand-piece that'll take 1/4" shanks for $50 pr $60 and put it on the Grizzly. It's a less expensive way to go but the Fordom is a better grinder.I hate to sound like Grizzly's version of a payola posse but I don't have any connection to Grizzly. We have a better and much more expensive belt grinder that sees the most use by far in our shop. It's a lot better machine and I prefer it over the Grizzly by far. We just know that initial cost of a set-up for grinding can be a big barrier to people and we try to be sensitive to that. I do have a video on this coming out. It's in the editing process now.
Larry,
that was an absolutely GREAT post. Invaluable info on sharpening moulding planes!! I will pass it on to my friends. You should keep a copy handy so you can just cut and paste it when others ask you a similar question. I will look for your Video to come out and get one.Your info on which types of wheels for the grinding wheel and for the Foredom IS ABSOLUTELY USEFUL to me. I will get the Foredom or a Foredom clone called a Wecheer, after I look into both. I also appreciate the info on where to get the various items that are needed. I'll look up the things on Tools for Working Wood, MSC Industrial Supply, Cratex. etc.Your paragraph on being sensitive to the cost of setting up for grinding is very nice. However, please don't let it stand in the way of letting people know what you REALLY recommend. You came to your real choices after much hard work and testing, so I hate to see that info lost in trying to help folks get started with a low cost alternative. I am one of those people who don't want to pay more than I have to attain a capability, BUT I am more than willing to pay to get that capability. There is a time NOT to cut corners. I really appreciate your help. Let us know when your video comes out.
Thank you.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,I forgot to mention that you need to keep the grinding points dressed and true just like you do grinding wheels. Use a single point diamond dresser for the vitrified points and diamond files for the rubber abrasive points. I prefer MSC's softer rubberized points over the hard ones.
Larry,
Wow, I had no idea you needed to keep those little grinding points dressed and true. That is because I have never used them. Forewarned is forearmed. I appreciate that plus the hint on using MSC's softer rubberized points over the hard ones. I printed out your first message to me. I will print this out and attach it and then start looking into getting some equipment.
Really appreciate it.
Mel
PS this seems like an important area which is not discussed much on Knots.Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Hi Ed,
"If you get an edge to where it is fairly "sharp" coming off the grinder, and has a relatively big, well-defined burr,"
I used to do just this. I am a devoted fan of the hollow grind. Using your technique (grinding til I raised a wire edge) I used to go thru plane irons, like Grant went thru Richmond. Then, it dawned on me, , maybe there was a Voice, from Above, "Hey Ray, you don't have to grind all the way through the edge to get the benefit of a hollow grind! Just grind up to the edge, nearly, with that rough grinding wheel and raise a much smaller wire edge on your bench stone, you profligate! You'll save on steel, by not grinding away any edge, and then, not having to stone away any grinding marks."
Just a suggestion. Not really a direct line from the Big Woodshop Teacher.
I heard a fellow who was a student of the grand old man of furniture making and plans, Carlyle Lynch, (when Mr Lynch taught industrial arts at Broadway (VA) High School,) tell of getting a rise out of the old man by seeing how fast they could get the hand cranked wheel to wind up. The sound would bring Mr Lynch running the length of the shop, shouting and raving about over-revving the wheel.
Ray
Hi Ray
I am sure that many do not realise that it is quite easy to burn steel on a hand cranked grinker if you are vigorous. DAMHIK!
Regards from Perth
Derek
derek,
I'm sure it can be done. The teller of the Carlyle Lynch tale wasn't grinding anything, however--just going for the world land speed record for hand-crank grinder peripheral ft/min.
Ray
tell of getting a rise out of the old man by seeing how fast they could get the hand cranked wheel to wind up.
Ray I did that as a youngin' in the US Army Artillary.. 1962 in Germany. Kisersaluter? I forget how to spell it.. Cold war with Nukes ready..
I had a very large roller bearing for a part on a 8 inch Armored self propelled gun. Could shoot a tactical Nuke round as I recall but we would be fried also... I was cleaning the the bearing of solvents with a huge air compressor we had to remove the solvents before applying new lubrication.
I took out the air hose to clean out all the solvents and got carried away by the SCREAM it was giving and I could change the pitch of the sound..
My warrant Officer ran out screaming something.. It exploded.. Nobody was hurt thank God.. I had extra duty for about 3 months! I cleaned out the latrines at night.
My Warrent Officer was a nice guy. Hell, I could have been in Fort Leavenworth prison for many years for what I did without thinking...
I recall my grandfather made a grinder with bicycle parts. I remember he sat on a wooden bench,pedaled to turn the wheel and the grinding rest was an angle iron welded to pipe.The pipe was welded to a wheel hub.One pipe slid inside the other for height ,locked in place with a pin.The angle iron rest tilted but I do not recall how that was done.
This homemade grinder was used mostly for grinding cutters on metal lathes .From what i can recall, the grinder worked better than my storebought one.
mike
I frequently use an older Woodcraft grinder with a 60 grit white grinder wheel to finish off a grind to avoid over-heating my chisel. I also use it to redefine the hollow grind on a chisel to get ####before taking the chisel to the sharpening stone.
I use the side to side stroke rather than back and forth. The hollow grind from the grinding wheel will guide the bevel. I sharpen unil I get a bur on the flat side.
I start with a soft Arkansas. the hard whit Arkansas and finish with a black Arkansas. I work the flat back on each. The chisels are so sharp its scary.
Michael,
I use 25 for my general purpose chisels. They are used for paring, chopping dovetails, trimming across grain, chopping mortises, etc.
Chris @ www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
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