I recently purchased two high quality cherry logs fron a logger and had them cut by a friend. The logger had several short but decent logs that he “threw in”. A fter cutting one of the logs we fould “red rot” in half the boards. The color is very red in the section effected by the red rot but the wood seems to be firm. Is there anything that I can do with these boards? Will they take a finish… they are beautiful to look at but the sawyer said that they were rotten! Thank you for your advice.
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Replies
Another word for rotten is "spalted" but I don't think it happens in cherry. Very interesting -- any chance to post a couple of pics??
"Another word for rotten is "spalted""
Not quite true fg. Spalting describes a specific condition, ie, an infection by two or more white rots. The characteristic erratic wandering black lines and the variegated whites/greys/creams between the black lines are the result of the different white rots setting up and defending their zones. The black lines indicate the border between one fungal attack and another.
As to providing some sort of answer to the original question, I suspect there's little chance of getting a meaningful response unless there are decent images to look at. Slainte.
richardjonesfurniture.com
Edited 8/18/2009 3:35 am by SgianDubh
Richard,
I have a cherry board that seems to be an example of what the OP is asking about. I'll get some pics today.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,
I used a bunch of owner-milled cherry to make a desk and credenza for a client a couple of years ago. The cherry had what I thought (and looked like) were bark inclusions. But they occurred in the middle of some of the boards, so they must have been what I'm just now hearing is "red rot."
I pointed out these defects to the client before I started the project, but they said to go ahead and use the lumber anyway - the marks were, they said, "character," and the boards had sentimental value, as they came from trees from the family farm. So I went ahead.
Everything looked pretty good until I got to the finishing phase. Despite trying to minimize the red rot areas by placing them on the bottoms and undersides of the pieces where I could, there were still a few that were visible on the top surface. My finishing schedule was a couple of coats of SealCoat shellac followed by about six coats of wipe-on Minwax polyurethane.
The areas that showed the red rot soaked up the shellac like crazy. I'd never experienced that before, especially after two coats. But they also absorbed the poly as well. I wound up going back and forth over the defects again and again trying to get them to stop taking in the finish. It finally happened, after a fashion, but it was still a very visible disruption in the finish compared to the rest of the surface.
Plus, the rotted areas seemed to, after a time, sink a little.
But the customer loved the pieces. I mananged to talk him into placing the printer that is attached to his computer over one of the spots. Creative arranging is what I call it...
The bottom line is that this is a pretty substantial defect, and as far as I can tell, just about impossible to conceal. I've never seen it in any of the kiln-dried boards I've purchased over the years. This was air-dried stock. But I'm not sure if it's a result of the drying process or just something that occurs in some cherry logs. I'm interested to hear if anyone else has some insight into this issue.
ZoltonIf you see a possum running around in here, kill it. It's not a pet. - Jackie Moon
It appears that Red Rot is also a cocktail: * 1½ oz London dry gin
* ½ oz St~Germain elderflower liqueur
* ½ oz Cherry Heering (Dutch cherry liqueur)
* ½ oz fresh lemon juice
* 2 dashes Peychaud’s bitters
* iceEnough of these might reduce the recognition of any flaws in the wood. ;-)
Ralph,
That recipe of toxic alcohols reminds me of a drink called a Mother's Ruin...
Zolton
If you see a possum running around in here, kill it. It's not a pet. - Jackie Moon
I appreciate your comments. I now have pictures of the red rot but do not know how to post them to this discussion.
Hi Z. You can soak areas like that with Cyanotacrylate glue, and it will make it solid in just seconds. You want to do this before you sand. Lots of turners that use spalted wood soak the punky wood with this.
Keith,
That's a good tip that I never even thought to apply in this situation. It would harden and stabilize the wood. I'm trying it. I think I've got some of the scrap from that project that I could experiment on. Thanks for the suggestion.
ZoltonIf you see a possum running around in here, kill it. It's not a pet. - Jackie Moon
Yea, When I was reading that you were trying to load it up with finish, I was cringing. It will really soak a lot of that up, take forever to dry, then the finish shrinks when it dries. That is like trying to paint a sponge. The CA glue soaks in faster than water. If there is any moisture in the wood, it will kick faster than you want, and will smoke. Do NOT breath or let it get in your eyes. If the wood is dry enough, you can over do it the other way, by over filling those hollow cells. When you apply your finish, it can take a better / more glossy finish than the rest of the wood, so it is good to know when to stop.
A wood hardener like the one from MinWax will harden up a larger area faster and easier than cyanocryolate glue. It will also finish easier.
Brent
If you see a possum, let it be. It means no harm and will give you no trouble. If you see Jackie Moon on the other hand ....
Edited 8/22/2009 9:46 pm ET by BrentD
Hi, Richard. I'm aware of the technical meaning of "spalted" --- I was just being a little flippant. I agree, we need pictures!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
What you have found in your lumber is a quite common problem when a cherry tree is felled, and either has a fungus in the crotch area of the tree, or has been left to lay on the ground too long before milling. I have only seen it in the log, and have never had it happen after I've milled a prunus serotina log. However, I don't mistreat my good quality logs by leaving them lay about on the ground. I always mill them right after the tree has been felled.
You will find that the affected areas will not glue well, or take finish well. It's best to remove the affected area from the lumber.
PS, I suspect from the additional contributions made, including yours, since I last posted, that you are actually discussing the attack of a brown rot. Brown rots are so called because their usual modus operandi is an assault on the cellulosic and hemicellulosic structure of the wood: brown rots are generally unable to handle the wood's lignin and it's this remaining structure that gives the various brown rot fungi their name. As the wood degrades what is left behind is the lignin and this is generally brown.
Another good indicator of brown rot infection, especially when it's well advanced, is a brick like or cuboid appearance to the remaining wood. Advanced infestation by one of the other main wood fungi, ie, the white rots, is a bleached stringy appearance to the well rotted wood-- white rots atttack everything, including the lignin which causes the bleached stringy appearance.
I suspect the red appearance of the rots you are discussing in American cherry is something to do with the original colouration and extractives in the wood rather than this being a new form of rot, ie, as I said earlier it seems most likely to me that we are talking of a brown rot. Slainte. richardjonesfurniture.com
I believe that the rot that you are mentioning starts out as red in color, and advances to a tan-like brown color as it progresses. Personally, I'm not too interested in the scientific part of this process, as I'm mostly interested in the working aspects of the species. When I occasionally find this type of infestation in american cherry, I have learned from experience to add the sections of infected wood to the burn pile. I believe that we are all taking about the same thing, and I would agree with everything you stated, as it has been my personal experience, also.
"I'm not too interested in the scientific part of this process, as I'm mostly interested in the working aspects of the species."
There's a significant difference between us right there: I'm interested in both because developing knowledge of the science leads to greater overall understanding and enhanced ability to predict how the material reacts and behaves as it's processed.
On the other hand, perhaps I misinterpreted the intent of your statement due to the way you phrased it? Slainte.richardjonesfurniture.com
Richard,
Thank you for your clear and lucid explanation of "brown rot" in cherry. Your mention that the coloration of the affected areas in cherry is possibly due to the hue of the original material sounds like the right explanation. And, as you noted, in its advanced state, it does become "cuboid," with an alligatored type surface.
Does it seem to you as though, as another poster noted, the rot can occur either in the tree itself, as it is growing, or after the tree has been felled, because of infestation that occured before cutting, or perhaps as a result of improper drying?
On the pieces I recently worked with, I suspect the latter was primarily the case. The lumber was cut and then immediately stored in the upper loft of a barn. A lack of good air circulation may have contributed to rot starting to develop. In fact, I saw a fair amount of white, stringy rot on other boards in the pile where I retrieved what I needed for this project. Where it was stickered there were definite signs of rot in some of the boards.
In other instances though, it seemed as though the rot developed in the middle of an otherwise sound board. Maybe those were pockets where water entered from a crotch in the tree above, while the tree was still alive and standing..
Zolton If you see a possum running around in here, kill it. It's not a pet. - Jackie Moon
Zolton, there are multiple dozens of fungi that infect wood, either in the living tree, dead trees and planked up wood-- some can infect wood in all its forms, ie, live, dead on the ground or planked up and partially dried. The brown rots are just one type, and there scores of brown rots let alone all the other types. The one common factor is that wood must have an MC of at least 20%. 20% MC and below is 'dry rot safe'. All other fungi need more moisture than this to start an infection and to maintain their existence, and some need considerably more moisture than 20%.
In living trees favourite places for the initiation of infection are wounds, puddles of water where branches diverge (crotches), soil contact points and below the soil at the roots. Insects are another source of infection-- Dutch elm disease caused by the Ophiostoma novo-ulmi fungus began killing the British elm population in earnest during the 1960’s. The elm bark beetle spreads the fungus.<!----><!----><!---->
In dead wood there is always some enterprising fungi that will exploit the food source, as long as it is wet enough and temperatures are suitable.
So, yes, all those possible sources of infection you mentioned are valid. Slainte.richardjonesfurniture.com
Zolton,
Does this look similar?
View Image
Actually I think this pic might be better.
View Image
This board was kiln dried so I guess it was infected before the tree was cut down. The white fuzz part looks like many layers of tiny webbing extending down into the wood.
I'm sur eI have macro function with the camers, but I'll have to read the, um manual first.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob, the "white fuzz" is quite likely to be a collection of hyphae known as the mycelium. The hyphae spread throughout, over and within the fungi’s food source breaking this down and taking the nutrients in to live and grow. Hyphae fall into two types: the long, continuous tubes of the coenocytic fungi; secondly there are the septate fungi where at intervals each hypha strand is divided by cross walls called septa, hence septate.
If you let some foodstuff go rotten in the fridge by mistake, eg, a few tomatoes, then when you discover the fungal infection it's likely you'll see the mycelium as a white cotton wool like fuzz blanketing the surface of the fruit. Closer inspection will show there are half pin-head sized black dots in amongst the fuzz: these little black dots are the fruiting body that release spores. Slainte. View Image
richardjonesfurniture.com
Edited 8/22/2009 9:42 am by SgianDubh
Thanks for the detailed info, Richard. Although individual interest in the underlying science varies, I find it interesting.To keep things simple, I simply avoid stock that is more fuzzy than my thinking. ;-)
Bob,
Yeah, what Richard said is exactly - exactly - what I would have said, had I his scope of knowledge on this subject...
But yes, this is what I found on the boards I used for that desk project. In particular the darker brownish areas just outside of where the white fungi are located. Those are the types of places that absorbed copious amounts of finish, seem to have sunk below the rest of the surface of the board, and still don't look right...
Maybe I should get out my camera to show what this looks like in my part of the world.
Zolton If you see a possum running around in here, kill it. It's not a pet. - Jackie Moon
Zolton, the reasons for the sinking below the surface and the large absorption of finishes I imagine are obvious to you. If perchance the reasons are not obvious then it's because the wood structure has been partially destroyed by the fungal infection: in other words there are now a lot of voids where before there was wood.
Incidentally the images shown by Bob almost certainly indicate a brown rot-- I suppose at a stretch it could be called a red rot, but that steps outside the bounds of scientific precision. The name 'red rot' suggested a description perhaps applied by someone that was not familiar with the subject but they were looking for a good descriptive name. As such, that phenomenom of misnaming things is nothing new in a wide spectrum of specialised subjects, but it does tend to lead to confusion. I'm guilty of it myself if I'm trying to describe unfamiliar things in specialist areas outwith my specialism-- we all are guilty of that I'm sure. Slainte. richardjonesfurniture.com
Richard,
One question I have, and maybe it was mentioned and I missed it, but is there any danger of further infestation from and infected board? Perhaps in the early stages of its development?
Infected/infestation may be another of those Ufamisms that I'm guilty of. :-) I had another board where there was very little white fuzz and a lot more of a brownish color but it seems to have eluded me. If I find it I will post pics.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 8/21/2009 12:01 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
Bob, if the wood is kept at 20% MC or below my researches indicate that there is no chance of fungal infection spreading to other boards. The only fungus able to survive at this relatively low MC is dry rot. All other fungi need wetter conditions to survive.
Fungi also like it warm with 25º-- 32ºC (77-- 90ºF) being ideal for most fungi, although disease causing and some pathogenic fungi prefer body heat, roughly 37ºC (~99ºF). Fungi generally prefer acidic conditions at about 5 on the pH scale.
As woodworkers for instance we talk about ‘dry rot safe’ levels of wood moisture content (MC). This is wood at or below 20% MC and is one reason why construction grade softwoods and hardwoods are dried to slightly below this point. Activity stops in most fungi at temperatures greater than 40.5º C (~105º F) and lower than 4.5º C (~40º F). All fungi have a range of temperatures in which they thrive, and the range varies from species to species. Some prefer temperatures at the upper end of the scale and others prefer lower temperatures. For example the cooler autumn months in Great Britain herald a burst of fungal activity including rapid growth and the development of fruiting bodies on leaves, stumps and vegetation.
High enough temperatures kill fungi completely whilst extremely low temperatures means either death or dormancy for many. Raise the temperature to a suitable level in the case of fungi that can withstand cold and they resume their activity. Internationally there is the timber kiln drying standard ISPM 15 referred to by many in the timber trade simply as 56/30. This is a process of bringing the temperature of the wood inside the kiln to 56º C (~133º F) and holding it for 30 minutes which completely kills any fungus present; it allows the seller of the wood to mark it with the ISPM 15 mark indicating compliance with the standard.
With all that said, if you allow the wood to get wetter than 20% MC and keep it in suitable temperature conditions there is a good chance some enterprising fungus will take advantage of the situation. Slainte.<!----><!----><!---->richardjonesfurniture.com
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