Replies

1. 
   EarlKelly | Oct 07, 2005 03:49pm | #1

   If your looking to be a furnituremaker or artist, go to the furnituresociety.org web site and place a post on the forums. Sometimes makers will be looking for apprentices.

   Furniture...the Art of a FurnitureMaker
2. 
   RickL | Oct 07, 2005 05:51pm | #2

   Start with local shops in the yellow pages for local woodworkers  and see if anyone in the http://www.furnituresociety.org is local. Ever go to the craft shows such as sponsored by American Craft?

   There's a lot less for apprenticing these days. A lot of folks take classes. Some makers won't take you on without a minimum of experience or minimum of committment. Kind of a pain when you fianlly begin to become worth your training and you go off work for someone else.

   
   

   ---

   Edited 10/7/2005 10:55 am ET by RickL

3. 
   artagain | Oct 07, 2005 07:37pm | #3

   I am also considering this plunge.  However, I decided to take courses, and I may go  going full time to the North Bennet Street school since I live 30 mins. away.  It certainly is a big decision.  I'm not quite ready to give up my $60k a year job so I'll probably make pieces part time until the demand becomes realistic.  Good luck.

1. 
   RickL | Oct 07, 2005 09:02pm | #5

   http://woodwork-mag.com/back_issues.html

   You might want to read #82 WoodWork interview with Christian Becksvoort. He works 60 hours  a week for $30,000

1. 
   MichaelPB | Oct 07, 2005 09:23pm | #6

   Making money doing woodworking is like making money in pro sports, except there is no real money in woodworking but the odds are about the same.

   Look in the local want ads and see what shops are paying skilled journeymen, which isn't going to be much.  In Sacramento, where starter homes START at $300k, skilled cabinet makers are lucky to get $40 an hour, most making MUCH less.

   Woodworking can be a profitable hobby which is why it isn't a money making career, too many hobbiest subsidizing it with a career.

1. 
   RickL | Oct 08, 2005 12:32am | #7

   Nothing new to me...been in the woodworking business for 35 years. Better to keep it as a hobby for most folks.

2. 
   generalkael | Oct 08, 2005 12:51am | #9

   In many ways you are like me, I'd like to do woodworking professionally, but can't give up the pay of my day job, which is edging on 6 figures. What I've decided to do are small commisions for friends who aren't in a hurry for the finished product (as it usually takes 2+ months for a small project), and makeing boxes, and nice pieces and selling them on the internet or at craft fairs. I don't sell on the Internet yet as I never have anything left after local craft fairs! I put all of my profits into new tools and materials, plus taking classes at the local community college. If I ever go professional and use my current tools, I'll end up paying taxes on them, but oh well, if that day comes it would be fun.Start with stuff for friends and craft fairs, improve your skills, and see if you can't do business for yourself. That's my thought.
   Scott
   Slacker Extraordinaire
   Specializing in nothing but knowledge in everything.

1. 
   artagain | Oct 11, 2005 08:07pm | #23

   I have been giving the "plunge" serious thought and have decided to stay within my field of experience.  I had run my idea by a highly respected and educated family member.  He said he knows I'm a good craftsman but perhaps not the best businessman.  He believes there are few people out there that can be both. The ecomony seems to be slowing down as well.  There's security here.   Looks like I'll be retiring within the insurance industry and tinkering in the shop on the side. 

   Appreciate your input Scott.  Thanks.

4. 
   JMadson | Oct 07, 2005 07:56pm | #4

   Start taking wookworking classes around your work schedule. I believe there's at least one woodworking school in Chicago. There's also the Marc Adams school in Indianapolis. You'll not only learn something, but you'll meet a lot of fellow woodworkers.

5. 
   Napie | Oct 08, 2005 12:38am | #8

   It is wonderful life, as long as you don't mind being poor.  That "enthusiast" part will go away fast after the tenth 65 hour week and you still can't afford dinner at a cheap place.

6. 
   TJB | Oct 08, 2005 01:36am | #10

   I made kitchen cabinets with my brother for a year or so while holding down a full time job. We both made the decision to stick with our regular 9 - 5 jobs because of the hours we had to put in and all the work involved.

   The fun disapears fast when you need the money to live on. I have not regretted my decision to keep it a hobby. I have done some side jobs for extra money to buy tools. Someday when I retire maybe I will make some furniture at my own pace for something to do. Read Sam Maloofs book to get inspiration and a realistic view on what its all about.

    

7. 
   Floss | Oct 08, 2005 02:10am | #11

   Dave,

   I was a finish carpenter for 10 years before I went to school, The Furniture Institute of Massachusetts, to study furniture making.

   Well sure it's hard to make a living as a furniture maker. It is just as hard to make it as any other start up business. Talk to anyone who has started their own business and they will tell you the same basic story. Lots of hard work and unpaid hours, time lost with family and friends, concern about providing a living for yourself and family. The list goes on and on.

   The good thing about this is that most people would not have it any other way. They like owning their own business and could not see doing anything else.

   Well I read the interview with Becksvoort. And he also says that folks should go to Harvard and get a business degree first so that whatever they choose to do they will be successful. Well gee, does this include furniture making? What this says to me is that he may not have the business acumen to be successful at what he does. If he is only making 30k a year then maybe not. I found some of his statements contradictory and at times combative.

   Learn as much as you can about woodworking, and business. Try not to be dismayed by the nay sayers. It can be a lot of work, but if you are committed it can happen. Plan well and you may be surprised at what you can achieve.

   I love working wood. It sucks at times, but it also has it's moments. I am not fit to do anything else and I don't make a very good employee, so here I am.

   What can you do?

   Follow your passion.

   J.P.

   http://www.jpkfinefurniture.com
1. 
   Robinlynn | Oct 08, 2005 05:31am | #12

   Thanks for your thoughts.  I walked away from a 6 figure job, due to the stress and got a labor job, just to pay the bills.  After much thought, I approached a cabinetmaker and started working for him, (about 7 months ago).  I got my first commission a couple weeks ago.  Second, today.  I have no illusions about the amount of work involved.  The cabinetmaker had coffee with me last week and said, "you won't make $100,000 doing this, but you'll make a decent living, be happier and enjoy your life more".  I've put alot of time into my current project, and won't get final payment until it's finished, probably next week.  In the meantime, I had to borrow $10 for gas.  But it's ok.  I am happier than ever in my life, have so much less stress and love doing the woodworking.  It's not easy, but then nothing worth doing ever is.  What convinced me to finally take the plunge was a friend who said, "when you're on your death bed, are you going regret not having tried doing your woodworking for a living?"  I immediately replied yes.  And she said, "then you have your answer". 

   Life is short.  Most people don't realize that they don't need that six figure job, they've just gotten use to it.  Follow your passion.  You only get a shot at this once.

   Good luck.

1. 
   MichaelPB | Oct 08, 2005 05:42am | #13

   I love working wood and have done it as my sole source of income (notice I don't say living) so I have been there and done that.  This thread is a PERFECT illustration of why woodworking doesn't pay.

   First, people LOVE to do this so they accept all sorts of sacrafices to do it.  Sacrafices your CPA, CEO, and attorney clients haven't done so they can afford to pay you.

   Second, many of those same CPAs, CEOs, and attorneys who own their own homes, have retirement plans, and can afford to outfit a shop with top of the line equipment work part time to keep their sanity selling stuff at highly subsidized prices.

   Third, those above then retire and do it full time.

   Yes there are custom cabinet shops doing stuff in every major and even minor city but cranking out kitchen cabinets isn't what any of us dream of doing.  Many of those who DO make a go of artisanal woodworking do so by moving somewhere where the cost of living is minimal and selling to other places where there are people who can afford their work.

   Not saying it can't be done, but if you have a family it is a BIG gamble, and you are gambling against a host of other guys dreaming of the very same thing you are.  Some guys and gals DO make the big league but most don't.

1. 
   Robinlynn | Oct 08, 2005 01:48pm | #15

   You are right, I had to make sacrifices.  But I think, for me at least, it is worth it.  I went to college, have a Masters degree in science and could be making lots of money.  However, I am single, own my vehicle and are willing to do whatever I need to, to have a life where I do woodworking. 

   I have friends who make good money, (doctor and a lawyer).  Have families, cars, house, the whole shebang.  And feel they are happy. I would never argue about whether someone is happy.  But when they come to my shop, sometimes they get a little wistful look in their eye and say," it must be nice......".  I think it's a case of "the grass is always greener".  Yes, sometimes I miss being able to go out to dinner whenever I want or go to exotic places on vacation.  But the majority of the time, I'm happy with my decision.  You are right, not alot of people make it, not from lack of ability, or trying.   I have no illusions about my ability.  I'm no Maloof, but people like my work and are willing to pay to have me do it.  Again, I'm just starting out, so only time will tell.  Maybe it will work, maybe not.  But I'm glad I'm giving it a try. 

1. 
   creekwood | Oct 08, 2005 02:58pm | #16

   Glad to see you're trying. If you never try to accomplish something you really want, you'll never know if you could have done it. And give it your all, or you could still be left wondering "what if". There are many skilled craftsmen that don't know how to run a business, so you must be able to wear many hats, not just be able to build, to be successful. Creative marketing yourself could be what gets you into the ones that make a good living at this.

   I also remember hearing this quote from a well-known woodworker; "Woodworking isn't a way to make a living, it's a way of living."    Good luck.

2. 
   REllis | Oct 09, 2005 05:05pm | #17

   Enjoy reading these posts on this subject.  I think this topic came up a few months ago on this site and it received a lot of responses then.  Now for my 2 cents.  I would caution you that at some point, if you continue with this notion of making a living at wworking, you'll reach a point of no return, another words you'll get spoiled working for your ownself, setting your own hours (freedom)  And then as the years roll on you'll find you cannot fathom the idea of working for someone else, punching time clocks, taking breaks when they say so...

   I speak from experience this has been my life since 97'.  I have tried numerous times to quit the wwing and go back to public work.  I can only last about a year before the tools, wood, freedom calls me back.  In my case it has become so interwoven into the person that I am, I don't think its possible for me to do any other type work for any extended period of time.

   As for making a living, well I supported my family of seven (wife didn't work outside the home) all these years.  The best term I would use to describe these years were eeking by, however, all the bills were always paid on time, food on the table, etc. 

   I think the best advice I would give you if you stay with the ww, is to always try to sell directly to the public (retail).  I realize location plays a big part of it and in my case 99 percent of my sales are wholesale (outof town)  solely because I reside in an area that can't, or won't spend the money for the furniture I make.  You lose a lot of money, and work a lot more hours selling wholesale versus selling retail.

   Robert

2. 
   Floss | Oct 08, 2005 06:58am | #14

   Robinlynn,Sounds like you are on your way. I can remember a few times where I had to live off a credit card when work was slow. However as my skill increased so did my confidence and the work seemed to follow.When I was a carpenter I never had to find work. Now things have changed so I have started to plan a little better. I have found that writing things down can really help. I am currently re-working a business plan to help give a little perspective on the whole picture. Seeing things on paper can be a real help when determining what your next move as a business owner should be. Besides, I know of no other way to determine overhead and what one needs to charge to stay in business.Lastly, be safe. J.P.http://www.jpkfinefurniture.com

1. 
   dirtstirrer | Oct 09, 2005 06:26pm | #18

   JP, I'll toss my $.02 in if you don't mind.  Sounds like we could all learn from you, and the advice about figuring out the budget, is particularly important.  I think too many people try to do business without having any idea at all what they need to get out of the business. 

   Business, no matter what business, is the same in the respect that it needs to be properly analyzed to make sure that the business is operating as required.  Every descision in a business can be analyzed in dollars and cents, and they need to be.  If you think you can get by in business without cash flows and P&L's, try balancing the checkbook in your head for a month.  It is really easy to loose money, and nothing less then diligence with the books will point out the pitfalls.  I've learned this the hard way.

   When you get into business, your household budget must be kept in mind.  If you need $6000/month to pay the bills, $2000 sales/month won't work.  Also, an accountant and an attorney provide cheap peace of mind when it comes to taxes and contracts.   

   Have a good day,

    Steve

1. 
   Floss | Oct 09, 2005 11:50pm | #19

   Steve, I think the problem a lot of people have is that they become enchanted with the romantic idea of being self employed. The actual business end of running any business can be down right tedious. However if you don't understand how cash flows in and out of your company then you are most likely set up to fail.Your comments about analyzing the business are right on. I think most folks are happy plodding along in the dark because they don't want to face the grim reality that what they have chosen as a profession cannot support them. At least not until they choose to face the facts and really try to operate as a for profit company.Also, with a little daily effort much of the business part of being a woodworker can be taken care of in probably an hours time. Lastly, I feel too many people under value their time. Thinking that if I charge too much then I'll never sell anything, when they are not even charging what is needed to cover the costs of operating their business. It all cycles back to understang cash flow.J.P.http://www.jpkfinefurniture.com

8. 
   UnclePaul | Oct 10, 2005 02:45am | #20

   A lot of good discussion here. I attended a two-year "professional" woodworking program back in the early 90's. When I finished I tried to make a go at having my own shop, a miserable failure. I found out that although my woodworking skills were excellent, my business skills weren't. Life intervened-mortgage, family, bills piled up.I came to the very tough but realistic truth that for me, it is just better to work for someone else. Believe me, there are days where I wish I were on my own but then I snap out of it , punch out and go home.

   I still work wood every day just for someone else. I have health insurance, dental, paid holidays, paid vacations, 401k, and make a decent wage. I doubt I would be doing as well on my own. From time to time I'll do the occasional side job but don't have the pressure of having to. I'll even scratch the creative itch by building gifts or things for our home as tediuosly slow as I like.

   I guess the bottom line is, find out what will make you happiest, without any regret, and go for it. Piece of mind is priceless.

    

9. 
   mikegagne | Oct 10, 2005 05:45am | #21

   I started in Chicago too as a carpenter with an accounting background. 33 years later, I live on Maui, have a daughter at Yale (graduating this Spring), own my home, have just built a brand new shop that I will move into at the end of the year. How did I make it? Planning, careful spending and writing down my goals. I didnt hit everyone first off but eventually and surpassed a few of them. I still have 15 years of work left in me and love for my career. I make high end kitchens, staircases and millwork. Its a good life if you make it that way and are diligent about your follow through. Sharp pencils at bid time, an ability to converse with people, and making the customer happy are just some of the things it takes. Make yourself happy too and you can have a good end at retirement time. Good luck in your search. aloha, mike

10. 
    LarryMartin | Oct 10, 2005 02:59pm | #22

    In Chicago, contact Jeff Miller who runs a classy furniture making shop in Rogers Park and offers a few day classes. There's also a Bauhaus address in Oak Park or Forest Park that takes on apprentices. The Woodcraft stores, Palatine and Lombard, I think, offer lots of classes.

    The Center for Furniture Craftsmanship in Rockport, Maine offers three month and nine month intensive courses in addition to an extensive range of one week and two weeks summer workshops.