Well,
I’m not new to Fine Woodworking, but I’m new to this area so please be easy on me! Finally finished building our new home which is a steel framed house. A fantastic journey and now ready to make some chips and saydust fly by building the kitchen and bathroom cabinets. I’ve done a lot of reading and have Jim Tolpins book of traditional kitchen cabinets. I understand the case construction and have fun using my Kreg pocket hole jig. My question is regarding the face frames. I’ll be using 3/4″ veneer faced ply for the cases, and solid stock for the face frames. I hope I can ask this question and make sense. When the face frames are attached to the cases, how much “overhang” or how “proud” of the cases should the face frames be relative to the interior and exterior of the cases?
I plan on using the european style 32mm (I think that’s right) hinges.
Also, I would love any input regarding router bit sets for drawer and door construction. I’m looking forward to any input Thanks in advance!
Thos
Replies
Welcome.
You might want to post this over in "breaktime" that is the GC, carpentry forum and there will be a few other their that come help out too. Breaktime is up top, just to the right of knots. Both forums will help you on this topic.
I don't quite follow.
Are you asking what thickness the face-frame material should be or what the reveal from the faceframe to partition and end panels will be which is determined by the width of the FF stiles and where you layout the vertical panels?
There are a wide variety of euro hinges and plates, one of the easiest to install are the faceframe plates that mount to the... well, the faceframe. They will center on 3/4" stock.
Most other plates I've seen are meant for frameless construction where there is no reveal.
There are many ways to skin this cat, but here's my take on it. This from a guy who has done alot of frameless cabinetry and face frame stuff too. When I build kitchen cabinetry for past clients and they requested face frame stuff, we almost always flushed the inside panels to the inside of the face frame. This does mean that you are required to have more interior walls, but it workes great because of the ease of putting in drawers, hinges and pull outs. I felt that ease/speed outweighed the additional cost of a few more sheets in the kichen.
Some guys center their interior walls on the center of the frames and then shim out for drawers.
Most of the face frame cabinetry also consisted of doors that had a 1/2" overlay, even though I also did alot of flush inset doors.
My personal preference for hinges is the Blum 125*"plus" hinge(max 7/8" overlay) and a 6mm clip-on hinge plate for face frames. Flush interiors can also mean you can use hinge plates for frameless cabinets, but then I really starts to get trickly for "first timers" .
Enjoy....
I agreeThere are four boxes to be used in defence of liberty: soap, ballot, jury and ammo. Please use in that order - Ed Howdershelt
Edited 4/26/2005 9:39 am ET by 8quarter
well you dont really make yourself all that clear in what your asking so i will take a shot at it.
Since its tolpins book Im assuming you are building F/F cabs.
I will build them flush to the outside and 3/4 overhang to the inside 1 1/2" wide.
That will give you 3/4 inside to shim with left over ply for attaching drawer slides.
On the end panels depending with you want I will miter the f/f leave about 3/4 overhang to addthe solidwood end panel if thats what you want or just make the f/f flush and add verneer to the ply and stain/finish to match.
Upon assembly you screw the f/f together. that is one way of doing it.
another is to make them 3 " install on one cab that will leave 3/4 for the other cab to set behind it and screw the cabs together that way you dont have the seam between cabs .... there are many ways to do this. It is mostly personal preferance.Buck Construction View Image
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
I'm gonna differ with a lot of the responses here. Build face frame cabs, and use self closing 1/2 overlay hinges. They're simple to install and design for, and never go out of adjustment.
A nice touch in to end the face frame at the bottom panel. Instead of a frame on the bottom, you edgeband the bottom of the cab. This allows for more cab volume, and no bottom lip on the inside to lift things over.
Decide what kind of top you want first, before you draw up the cabs. That way you will know what kind of reveal you need to leave for the top rail.
Just my .02 cents worth.
Traditional faceframes use 3/4" x 1 1/2" stock. 3/4" thickness is important for many of the frame mounted hinges, the width can vary as you see fit. The width of the faceframe will determine the projection. They can be butt joined to the carcass using fasteners or rabbeted and glued on, which is the most common way. The faceframe will project towards the inside, 3/8" on partitions and varies on ends depending on whether the frame is kept flush or proud. Manufactured cabinets are often 3/16" to 1/4" proud. This leaves 1/2" to 9/16" projection with 1 1/2" stock. This is because you fasten a bunch of small cabinets together at the faceframe. With custom cabinets, you can make them any size and may not have to attach several in a run.
There are several ways to do your doors. Full overlay, partial overlay, lipped or rabbeted and inset. You need to buy the hinge for the type of door mounting. I've been using Blum lately but there are many good brands. There are also a variety of door swing degrees with some of the hinges, some open 180° others 120°. Getting the correct mounting brackets for your application is important.
Most of the better router bit manufacturers have good door sets. I prefer the horizontal style panel raising bits. I don't use the glue joint bits, they can leave a squiggly line on the raised panel. You can use drawer lock bits instead of dovetails if you want. There are other ways to make a good drawer lock joint. The stile and rail type bits rely on a good fit for strong gluing. You have to spend some time fitting them with shims. The shims and instructions come with the bits. I'm using Jesada bits but Freud, CMT, Whiteside and many others are all good. There are several profile choices for both the stile and rail and panel raiser bits. These are a matter of personal preference.
There are also a number of drawer slide options, undermount, center mount, side mount. Also partial extensions, full extension and weight carrying capacity. It's a good idea to know what you are going to use and how they will mount before applying the face trim. Many drawer slides and hinges are adjustable but some require critical clearances and special mounting hardware. I think it's best to get the hardware first and determine how it it going to work.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
Thos,
I have to agree with migraine on this. Of course there are many ways to go about it but the cleanest look, the least confusing, and the strongest cabinets will result from building double wall thicknesses. On every vertical face frame member you should have an inner wall that is flush with either edge of the frame. It uses extra material, but -
If you're using veneer ply you can use a cheap veneer on the "backs" of these pieces. It frees you up design-wise to use any width face frame you please. The ease of mounting hinges and drawer slides is unmatched. Every Euro hinge intended for frameless cabinets will work with this system, so you are free again to mount any type (inset, rabbet, overlay) as you please.
My shop produces a kitchen every week or so, and we haven't done it any other way for 2 years now.
DR
I understand your question Thos,
Usually the faceframe over hangs the OUTSIDE of the box by 1/16" to 1/8". I shoot for 3/16". Purpose of this is to make it easier to pull the boxes tightly together. You then can shim the space between the boxes to get the frames straight. This is the standard practice. As for the inside it depends on your hinge choice. I usually keep it to a minimun and use 2" face frame stock, that would leave..... around 1" overhang inside. It really comes down to aestetics. Mock up a frame and door from cheep wood and decide is the poportions look good to you. If your hinges mount to the face frame it dosen't matter what the face frame-to-cabinet overhang is. I have been using the Blum compact series of hinges and am very happy with them. If you use the series that mounts to the FRONT of the frame there is no interference with the hinge and the opening. If you use pull out shelves this is a huge bonus.
Have fun,
Mike
My face frame are left 1/16-1/32" proud on all finished ends during construction and then I use a router and flush trim bit to flush them up. Where a cabinet meets another cabinet I leave the frame 1/4" proud as described before so that they pull up tight with out the possibility of the cabinet sides hitting first. The cabinet bottom is flush with the top of the bottom rail, so there is no lip there when taking stuff out of the cabinet. I use 1 1/2" material usually to construct the faceframe. There are always places where I will use wider stiles. For example I add an extra 1/4" where the cabinet meets a wall. That is so I can scribe the cabinet to fit the wall instead of using a moulding. It makes for a cleaner more custom installation. There would be a 1/2" overhang there on the side of the cabinet, but by the time I scribe 1/4" off to fit the stile will again be 1 1/2" for the most part.
Brian
Thos
Many different opinions here. I build all my face frames 2" wide, and leave 1/4 " overhang to the outside, so I can scribe to the wall if necessary. I use the same hinges you speak of, and have NEVER had a problem. 6 way adjustables are easy to set, and easy to align.
Jeff
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