Hi,
I would like to make some solid wood vertical panels for a builtin which
will hold books on shelves. I have little experience and would like
to avoid some wood movement catastrophe. At the moment I can only
think of using the frame and panel construction technique for these
vertical panels.In order not to confuse terminology, I will use the
terms “vertical panel” for the whole panel from floor to ceiling and
“frame” and “panel” respectively.
Few questions:
(a)Is there an alternative to frame and panel joinery for making the vertical panels ?
(b)Can a fixed shelf be included / where (on the frame or panel)
and what is the joinery method for the shelf itself and joinery between shelf and vertical panel ?
Replies
vjeko ,
You can cover the wall with 1/4" paneling or sheet goods then overlay a frame to suit .
I've seen guy's run a quarter round or a cove molding around the inside of the frame to create the frame and panel detail and a coped look .
I think that's what your asking , let us know
regards dusty
I'm a little confused about what you're trying to do, but will offer these ideas.
If you're talking about the sides of a bookcase or cabinet, make them from a cabinet grade plywood and use solid wood to cover the visible edges of the plywood.
If you're talking about doors, the same technique can be used to make slab doors.
A high quality plywood will be far more stable than glued up boards.
Hi,
I appreciate your feedback !
I may not have given a good enough description and
my questions haven't quite been answered.
I will try to explain better
but will need to be wordy ;)I'm in Croatia and the material I can get here is a bit different
to what you're used to in the States. At the moment
I can get hardwood (ash) and spruce cheaper than plywood so I wanted
to take advantage of this but am not 100% sure how to
solve the wood movement issues.Now, I'll try to describe the project more clearly:
Picture a U shaped space (about 8 feet high) formed by 3 walls where
the builtin will go. A wall on the left, one on the right about
10 feet away and the one directly in front (where the
back of the builtin is). These walls are made of brick,mortared
and painted white.Instead of making the builtin "the standard way" out of plywood boxes
with backs, side by side, I need to use hardwood and additionally I
don't want to have the backs but rather white wall to be visible instead.I want the builtin to look something like:
http://www.lear-furniture.co.uk/built-in.htm
so I was thinking of
-screwing vertical battens to the walls where the vertical panels
would be, to hold the panels upright at the back.
-making the vertical panels,then scribing them to the
walls and screwing them to the battens.
-In addition to the battens on the wall at the back, I would have
a toekick + cabinet of drawers at ground level and piece of wood at
front and back at ceiling level between the vertical panels to hold the panels. There may also be a need for a fixed shelf to further
stiffen the construction.Having said that,making the vertical panels out of plywood could be
relatively straight forward. My problem is that I'm not sure what
are all the options open to me when using hardwood. I have seen
standalone cabinets made of glued-up hardwood (no frame/panel
construction)where the vertical panels were just screwed into the
end grain of fixed shelves and the top and bottom pieces((3-4 screws
across the width of the panel) but am not sure if this is OK long term regarding wood movement. Is frame and panel construction the only alternative for me ?
If using frame/panel construction, do fixed shelves have to be joined
to the vertical panel only to a "rail" in the frame and panel (i.e.
wherever you want a fixed shelf, you need to break the panel with a rail)?
Does the fixed shelf also need to be of frame/panel construction
and what is the best way of joining it to the vertical panel?I would appreciate if someone could put me straight on how to go
about this - I certainly want to avoid putting a heap of hardwood
into a project and finding out it has cracked etc. because I didn't
know what I was doing.
vjeko,
It is certainly possible to build casework from solid wood; its been successfully done for a long, long time.
The thing to remember, to prevent warping or splitting, is to avoid cross-grain construction- instances where the long grain of one board (or glued up panel) is fixed at right angles to the long grain of another board in such a way that they cannot move independantly of one another as they swell and shrink across their width.
The typical means of construction is to have the case ends and partitions with grain running vertically. Attached to these, with dovetails or dadoes and nails/screws, are the bottoms, top, and shelves. Be aware that glueing battens across the width of the case ends to support shelves, or reinforce the corner joints, is crossgrain, and will cause problems when the ends try to shrink.
Doors like the ones in the link you posted are probably best done in plywood; however, can be done in solid, as long as you are aware that their widths will vary from season to season. So, full overlay will look better than inset application, where the reveal (the crack between door and opening) will accentuate how much movement has taken place.
Typical construction for solid wood plank doors calls for battens of some kind to hold them flat. These battens, being crossgrain, must be attached in a way that holds the panel from warping, yet allows them to swell and shrink across their width. This can be done a couple of ways. Perhaps the most elegant is by means of a sliding dovetail (but not glue) across the door near top and bottom (on the back side where they will not show). Another solution is to cap the ends of the panels with "breadboard" ends attached with tenons, again, allowed to float. This has the drawback of showing off the movement at the times of the year when the ends of the breadboards are not even with the edges of the door. You could also attach the battens to the backs of the panels with screws driven thru slightly oversized holes, allowing for some movement to take place. This method is probably best done where the "panel" consists of a series of boards placed edge to edge, but not glued to one another. The individual planks of the panel then can move independantly of each other, which keeps the overall dimensions of the door near the same year round.
Ray
Hi Ray,
>The typical means of construction is to have the case ends and
>partitions with grain running vertically. Attached to these, with
>dovetails or dadoes and nails/screws, are the bottoms, top, and
>shelves.
when you speak about case ends and partitions, you don't mention
frame/panel joinery, so I presume you are talking about
glued-up panels of wood - correct ? You mention attaching with various
methods dovetails .. screws which are all fixed - do I understand it
correctly that fixing the parts via screws/nails/glue is OK provided
we don't have a cross grain situation(here the grain direction "flows"
through the bottom panel up into the case end and so on (I never got
it quite clear - when one can "fix" the two pieces together) ?You talked about keeping the panels flat with breadboards for the doors
but what about case parts especially if they are long/high (if I got
you right above that you spoke about glued-up panels) ?
Hi vjeko,
>The typical means of construction is to have the case ends and >partitions with grain running vertically. Attached to these, with>dovetails or dadoes and nails/screws, are the bottoms, top, and>shelves. when you speak about case ends and partitions, you don't mentionframe/panel joinery, so I presume you are talking aboutglued-up panels of wood - correct ?
That is correct.
You mention attaching with variousmethods dovetails .. screws which are all fixed - do I understand itcorrectly that fixing the parts via screws/nails/glue is OK providedwe don't have a cross grain situation(here the grain direction "flows"through the bottom panel up into the case end and so on (I never gotit quite clear - when one can "fix" the two pieces together) ?
Correct again. The case ends swell and shrink in the same direction as the top and bottom, and the shelves. So you can attach them directly to one another.
You talked about keeping the panels flat with breadboards for the doorsbut what about case parts especially if they are long/high (if I gotyou right above that you spoke about glued-up panels) ?
First, make sure your materials are well seasoned (good and dry) and acclimated to the conditions in your work area. This means buying the materials, and letting them rest for a few days, or a week or more, if possible, before starting to cut them into pieces. Allow them to rest again after surfacing, stacking the pieces so air can circulate all around them (not stacked flat on the floor!). Reject any pieces that move a lot after you surface them. Your glued-up panels are best stored on "stickers"- narrow wood strips that hold them off your bench, and keep them separated from one another. Uneven air circulation can lead to warping of panels that otherwise would remain flat.
Attaching the case ends to a bottom and top will hold them flat. For instance, you can dado the case ends to accept the end of the case bottom, and fasten them together them together by toenailing (driving diagonally thru the dado joint) or screwing. Even short (2-3" long) glueblocks spaced 2-3" inches apart will allow for the swelling to take place. And the ends will hold the top and bottom flat too. Win-win. A dovetailed corner is stronger, but not always worth the labor. Be sure to choose straight grained material as much as possible (especially for the shelves if they are not fixed), and apply equal amounts of finish to both sides, even if one side will be against the wall. Un-evenly finished wood will take moisture unevenly, which leads to uneven movement-- warping.
Since the doors are unrestrained by anything other than their hinges on one edge, they need extra help to stay flat, hence the battens. And, they are exposed to uneven atmosphere conditions- one side faces the open room's changing conditions, the other face is in the "dead", relatively stable, air of the cabinet interior. (There is a reason why most cabinet doors in solid wood are frame and panel construction. It is by far more likely to yield a door that remains flat, and dimensionally stable.)
Ray
You could make each partition wall or vertical panel a frame of it's own , no panel is needed .
The shelves or stretchers running horizontally can notch or dado into the rails of the vertical frame members . You can notch the top and back of the partitions to accept the stretchers if need be .
You can use solid stock for panels in your frames where needed , but typically the strength does not come from the panel more the frame as many panels float . So you need to design with the method you will employ for construction .
There are many ways for you to go
regards dusty,a boxmaker
Hi dusty,
Please bear with me till I get this 100% clear as it's stopping all my work
- then I'll be ready to make the final plan and cut wood. Please
clarify my comments below:>You could make each partition wall or vertical panel a frame of it's
>own , no panel is needed .
OK, in that situation shelving doesn't have anything on the sides to
restrict things falling but you can have shelves on each side of the
frame on the same level. How can the shelves be attached (we're now
talking about attaching to stiles of a frame) pins/dados/notches
(but please explain what sort of notching you are thinking of ?
Also, I'm very interested to know what construction are the shelves
(can they be glued up panels) and can they be fixed/are they glued ?>The shelves or stretchers running horizontally can notch or dado
>into the rails of the vertical frame members .
What do you actually mean by "notch". If you have no panel, then
there are rails only at the top and bottom of the frame (rails are
horizontal and stiles vertical - unless I've go that wrong)- so what
did you mean by this ? >You can notch the top and back of the partitions to accept the
>stretchers if need be .
I haven't got the "notched" part visualised correctly / what sort of
joinery are we talking about in addition to the notch eg glue/pocket
hole>You can use solid stock for panels in your frames where needed , but
>typically the strength does not come from the panel more the frame
>as many panels float . So you need to design with the method you
>will employ for construction .
OK, if I want shelving on either side of the panel not necessarily to
be on the same level, then I must use a panel to ensure things don't
fall to the side. If I do use a panel,I guess I can use pins or
notches for adjustable shelves - are we putting the pins /notches only in the stiles or the actual floating panel ? I guess fixed shelving goes only in the rails of the frame ?> There are many ways for you to go
Not sure if there's more to this sentence as I only see frame or
frame+panel as the alternatives or can a glued-up panel be used
instead of the frame/panel if we use some sort of breadboarding
technique (just throwing an idea/not sure whether it is feasible).Edited 4/6/2009 2:48 pm ET by vjeko
Edited 4/6/2009 2:51 pm ET by vjeko
vjeko ,
A fixed shelf can be screwed , nailed , dadoed through mortised , the shelves can be glued up panels and you can make some adjustable .
Many cabinet decks or floors are under the partition walls . If you fix solid shelves you need to allow for movement .
Each frame can have as many rails as needed for integrity , not just at the top and bottom .
regards dusty
I appreciate the time you've taken to get me on the
right track !! Now we'll see if I can pass the test
and make something worthwhile or I'll be
doing a lot of grilling outside at the end (well, even that doesn't
sound bad ;)- I guess it's OK to make a few mistakes
and learn from them ;) ).
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