Replies

1. 
   Shepherd1800 | Nov 22, 2002 06:24pm | #1

   There are a couple of methods you could try.  Because old spindles are frequently bowed and in many cases oval in cross section, I seldom place old spindles on the lathe.  I usually just turn the new stub end and attach them too the old spindle, using hide glue of course.  You can turn a new tenon piece with a sholder down to a dowel then drill the old spindle and glue on the new tenon.  You can glue on a new turned tenon piece then drill through the new piece into the old with a small drill bit and add a dowel for strength.  The old ends of the spindle need to be made flat and smooth for the new work glued on the end.

   Stephen

1. 
   pgivenchry | Nov 22, 2002 07:35pm | #2

   Thanks for the suggestions - I had a bad feeling about putting an old spindle on the lathe - you've convinced me to reapproach the repair job.

   Peter

2. 
   BenM | Nov 22, 2002 09:38pm | #3

   You could also glue on a new oversized piece of wood and use a spokeshave to get the right shape.

3. 
   crt2cu2 | Nov 24, 2002 05:20am | #4

   Pete,

   I used to supply quite a few spindle repair parts to a furniture refinisher.  He always said that for him it was far cheaper to pay me to make an entirely new part rather than messing with repairing an an old one.  Worth a thought.  I guess.

   sawick

1. 
   Shepherd1800 | Nov 26, 2002 06:31am | #5

   If the piece is an antique (100 years old and 80% original) or if it is going to be an antqiue soon, it is much better to repair what is there in order to maintain the integrity and value of the piece, rather than simply and easily replacing it with a new one.

   Stephe Shepherd

1. 
   crt2cu2 | Nov 26, 2002 08:02am | #6

   Stephen,

   I am not sure what could be gained by cobbling up a repair to: "maintain the integrity and value of the piece" ... "or if it is going to be an antique soon" (your words).  If the repair is too difficult or impractical in that it would sacrifice structural integrity, appearance, and function, would one still want to continue with the repair?.  If the piece has bona fide antique collectors value, could not a new part be made with a note written to explain why and attached/included with the piece?

   For example, suppose a prospective customer requests a repair on a Nakashima table because the butterfly dovetail has itself broken (due to moving from a Southern humid climate to Northern aridness) and thus has rendered the table top out of plane (warped) and basically useless?  Would it be wise to attempt a patch job on the broken butterfly with no guarantee that it would hold?  Or should one fabricate a new butterfly dovetail and plane/surface the table back to true to completely restore function?

   I guess I have seen many nice pieces of furniture brought to me for restoration that have been ruined over the years by bad repairs.  Typically such repairs are obviously jerry-rigged by amateurs and often detract from the structural basis.  That is why I work with current customers to sometimes first get an independent appraisal of a piece's worth then to ask if they want to use the piece or just look at it.

   sawick

1. 
   Shepherd1800 | Nov 26, 2002 06:05pm | #7

   sawick,

   I have ran into many repairs that were "too difficult or impractical" (your words) yet because we only have one chance at saving history, I took the extra time it took to do the difficult repair, even if I didn't get paid for it.  Of course the "structural integrity, appearance, and function," are important and in order not to cause further damage I would do what is necessary to facilitate those ends, always keeping in mind that the integrity of a piece must be maintained.

   Repairs should always done with the future in mind as well as the past, using correct and appropriate tools, materials and techniques.  I would think it inappropriate to use yellow glue on a nineteenth century piece when the original was glued together with hide glue.

   My point on the repair of the broken spindle was to bring to others attention the importance of keeping as much of the original as possible.  The problem with writing notes to accompany a piece is that after repairing hundreds of pieces over the course of 30 years, I have only seen one note with an old piece that described the piece and mentioned of 'some repairs'.

   Stephen Shepherd

1. 
   crt2cu2 | Nov 27, 2002 07:08am | #8

   Stephen,

   Good woodworking friend, I have no desire to argue nor create conflict with you.  I respect your integrity and devotion being true to the originations of an antique.  Perhaps I should explain my position; many of my customers are working class folks who aspire and put some effort into reaching higher levels of status.  Thus , they have some sense of esthetics and value of antiques (often acquired by inheritance and sentimental value).  However, since they struggle to get by monetarily, each piece of furniture must also perform a function in their homes.  That is why I posted the notion of repairs that are as much true to the original as possible while also repeating/repairing the use of a piece.  Could there not be a middle ground where the means justifies the ends and at the same time preserve the integrity of a piece?

   sawick

2. 
   Shepherd1800 | Nov 27, 2002 05:15pm | #9

   Sawick,

   Friend, I understand your position completely, I know that you see my position about having only one shot at preserving that one little bit of history that may be an antique chair.  I didn't think we were arguing, just having a friendly discussion.  I am a bit militant when it comes to the past, and that may have come out in my response, for that I appologize.  I always try and give people options and information about preserving a critical part of our material cultural heritage.  All to often the posts on various boards begin with 'I have just stripped this antique..." and I cringe knowing a little part of history has been forever lost.  I hope we can continue to have discussions concerning the responsibility we have to help preserve and protect the limited number of antiques out there.

   Stephen Shepherd

   http://www.ilovewood.com

3. 
   crt2cu2 | Dec 01, 2002 08:46pm | #10

   Stephen,

   I checked out and was thoroughly amazed at your website!!  Excellent !!  And thanks for you recent post clarifying your position about antiques.  I also tend to be a bit intense when it comes to restoration work.  Perhaps then we were both 'speaking to the choir' during our discussion.

   Back to the original question about repairing the broken spindle: Wouldn't a scarf joint be better (stronger) than a dowel joint?  Then the repair could be chucked in the lathe and returned using the remaining parts of the spindle as a template.  That means that while the spindle is revoving on the lathe, the shadow line gives a good visual of where to make new cuts on the newly glued repair.  Problem with this approach is grain match of course.

   May I pose two new questions for you as I am impressed by your candor and values?  The following are examples of common requests I receive from prospective clients from this working class area of Montana.

   1. How do you feel about the recent media exposure and advertisements in WW magazines about using "reclaimed" (from old barns and buildings) timbers and 'recycled' (old doors, old furniture parts, et al) lumber for flooring, furniture, etc?

   2.  What is your position on the modification of older furniture into more functional present day pieces?  For example; taking an old damaged Victrola (missing all the old electronics) and modifying into a liquor or display cabinet as per customer request?

4. 
   Shepherd1800 | Dec 02, 2002 08:18pm | #11

     Sawick,

   Re: Broken Spindle

   The broken spindle repair with a scarf joint is good but requires chucking up the old spindle, which can cause problems if it is warped and it almost assuredly is oval in cross section due to its age.  The dowel tenon would probably have more glue area and can be done one the lathe to finished size and just glued on to the broken tenon.

   I have some problems with reclaimed timbers and recycled lumber in that old pieces may be cannibalized for their wood, and that isn’t any good.  It can actually cause old important or less than important work to be sacrificed for the money the wood can bring.  On the other hand a lot of timbers and lumber that would have just wasted away with weather and the elements or worse yet a landfill, will be saved and reused, that is a good thing.  So if the sources for the old material were ‘clean’ then I would have no problem with using it.

   As for modifying old furniture to suit modern usage and satisfy customers I again have two positions.  Old pieces shouldn’t be significantly altered to accomplish the modern requirements.  But if the piece is going to the dump or will be burned or discarded then making the modifications is probably a good thing.  I have done this in the past and will continue to do it in the future but I always instruct my clients that I will do the least amount of damage to the old piece in order to accommodate their needs.  I have had them buy a particular size TV to fit in an old piece rather than cut a gaping hole in the back for the set they currently have.

   I hope that answers your questions and as you can tell I get excited about old stuff.

    

   Stephen Shepherd

   http://www.ilovewood.com

5. 
   greenebelly | Dec 03, 2002 07:17am | #12

          This comes from my previous "get the bill's paid " adventure in life. I was a certified welder/ fabricator before I moved on and have a suggestion for you. Please go check out Sear's or the like eg. specialty store for a chuck that you put onto your wood lathe. It is a smaller version of a metal lathe. There for your 'out of center', or elliptical bent spindle can be put into the center and turned ( with a little patience to find center) on the lathe no-problemo.

                                            though it might help :)

6. 
   crt2cu2 | Dec 04, 2002 04:05am | #13

   Stephen,

   That is probably the best way to restore a broken spindle and by "stubbing on" a new piece as such then the grain match issue would be less problematic.  Also, my sentiments exactly echo your reply about recycled wood and old furniture.

   New question?

   What are your thoughts about salvaged architectural elements?  For example, here in Butte, MT (an old mining town), many old victorian mansions have been sacrificed over the years to urban development and disrepair as the mining economy failed.  However, some locals have managed to salvage parts of old homes such as doors, columns, hardware, brickwork, mantles, etc.  Much of this work is first quality, turn of the century classics but is now stored around town in nasty warehouses, basements and whereever. 

   On my last salvage expedition, I discovered more than 20 4 foot by 10 foot solid quartersawn oak pocket doors with the original hardware included.  Of course the home from these doors is long ago destroyed, sadly.  What should be done with these types of finds?  It is very unlikely that any local homeowner or builder would be interested.  Yet it seems a shame to send the woodwork away to rich Californians via ebay or similar. By this I mean no disrespect to the folks from CA you understand.  I am just pondering the dilemmas of restoration work in general, especially in a locally depressed and nonprogressive economic climate.

   Sawick

7. 
   StanleyNiemiec | Dec 04, 2002 07:06am | #14

   I'm going to jump into this discussion because it is a good one.  I've done my share of repair and broken spindles are a fact of life.

   It has been my experience that certain types of spindle breaks are easier to repair than others.  I would much prefer to have a break at the end than in the center.  If an end is broken (generally brash failure), I cut off the breakage (square), center bore the remaining part and add a double diameter piece to the end.  The smaller diameter goes into the center bored hole and the larger diameter part is shaved to fit.  The smaller diameter is generally <1/2 the diameter of the spindle and at least twice the diameter in length. 

   Breaks in the center are much more problematic.  In most instances I end up using some sort of spline.  I don't really like this technique but it does seem to work (at least I have never had a repair of this sort returned for reworking).

   Minimizing the amount of "new" wood is not so much a historic intergrity issue for me because any repair generally significantly decreases the pieces value.  Rather it is an issue of color matching.  I have never seen an entirely "new" spindle that does not look different (generally because of color variation). 

   I am also not a turner so I find that repairing a break takes considerably less work time than is required for me to turn a completely new spindle.  And no matter how good I might be or how careful I am, invariably, the new piece will be different (dimensionally and visibly).

   I have not seen a lot of scarf joint repairs on spindles.  Personally, I don't like scarf joints because they always seem to have a "sharp" end protruding; and unless you go to ratios of 1:12 or 1:16 they will be weak.  And I will admit that I can never be that accurate in generating a good surface mating for such long and narrow of a surface.