Replies

1. 
   kensshop | Mar 29, 2004 03:09pm | #1

   Unless your neighbor saw some obvious flaw in your work he should go to the local antique dealer and look at all the old table tops.  How many are still nearly flat, without breadboard ends?  As long as you've used dry lumber, good joints, good glue... in other words, followed the basic rules, and apply an equal amount of finish to both sides, your top will stay flat. 

   Except for certain styles of furniture, applying breadboard ends is not appropriate, and, depending on the width, could actually cause other problems associated with normal expansion and contraction.

   I say, and with all due respect for your neighbor, follow your own instincts.  Ken

1. 
   Buzzsaw | Mar 29, 2004 03:16pm | #2

   Ken,

     Thanks for the quick response. Ya know, this is my first table top as I am a newbie but lovin everything about this woodworking thing. I figured that I would just leave it as is and monitor it over time.  Kind of like an experiment.  It's not like I couldn't remove the table top, as it is an existing base, and put a new top on in the future.  Thanks for your input and I just may heed your advice and finish sanding and router up the edges. I look forward to other responses though.Regards,

   Buzzsaw

2. 
   bikerdude | Dec 08, 2006 07:30pm | #13

   Ken, I'm making a dinning table, birdseye infield framed with mahogany. There will be a leaf, where the leaf meets the two haves do you have breadboards there also.

1. 
   kensshop | Dec 10, 2006 12:25am | #14

   Wow, since March of '04!

   Greetings,  I've read your question.  It's kind of hard to give you an answer not knowing what style of table you're building, and, I don't know much about the maple you're using.  Is it solid?  Are you attaching the mahogany edges or is the whole thing veneered?  It's really all about what you want the finished piece to look like, both, with and without the leaf.  Will the leaf also have the mahogany edge?  It might look good if you did not attach breadboard ends where the two halves meet and only banded the ends of the leaf.  This way the band effect would continue with the leaf in.  Sounds like a very pretty top.  Good luck, Ken 

   Edited 12/9/2006 4:27 pm ET by kensshop

2. 
   RickL | Dec 11, 2006 05:36pm | #15

   Hope it's not solid wood you are framing in. It will expand and contract unless the panels is plywod. There's been plenty of articles in books, websites and such covering proper panel construction and breadboard ends. A google search will turn up tons of info and maybe someone has some sites at their finger tips to post.

2. 
   BG | Mar 29, 2004 03:16pm | #3

   Buzz,

   You don't have to add breadboard ends ...there are tons of table tops that don't have them and work fine....however, if you do put them on you need to do it correctly....and attaching with biscuits won't cut it because the BB ends could break off if leaned on.

   I've cut with router and a clamped on straight edge but I find it much easier to cut the shoulders on the TS..and then finish with a router or chisel, etc.  There are some other aspects about constructing BB ends but, the first thing is to decide if you want to do them...  
3. 
   HowardAcheson | Mar 29, 2004 03:40pm | #4

   Breadboard ends were originally used to attempt to minizize cupping when old time carpenters used questionably dried wood. To the extent they worked, they only kept the first 6-12" from each end from cupping. They did nothing for the middle of the tabletop.

   IMO, breadboard ends are only for aethetic purposes, not for structural. If the wood has been properly dried and the panel is flat after glue up, breadboard ends add nothing structural. Breadboard ends do add quite a bit of complexity to the project. They must be designed and constructed in a way that allows the panel to expand and contract without hinderence.

   There is no good way to add breadboard ends using biscuits. An unglued tongue and groove is the only effective way to construct them.

   
   

   ---

   Edited 3/29/2004 8:42 am ET by Howie

4. 
   Dave45 | Mar 29, 2004 03:52pm | #5

   I've always thought of breadboard ends as a way to hide end grain rather than prevent cupping.  They have to be a slip fit since they are in a cross-grain situation.

   Cupping is best prevented by working with properly dried stock, milled flat and square and glued up with the growth rings 'flip-flopped'.  When the piece is finished, do all sides and edges the same way so one side doesn't absorb more moisture (humidity) than the other.

5. 
   tsproul | Mar 29, 2004 05:08pm | #6

   you can do breadboards if you want.

   but don't use biscuits for the entire length. as another pointed out...this is a cross grain joint so you need to allow for wood movement.

   breadboard are normally fixed...either in the front or in the middle....with a bit of glue and then the remainder of the joint is normally just pinned with no glue and pinned in a way to allow for expansion/contraction of the top. you can use a biscuit for the fixed part of the joint but it is difficult to pin a biscuit....

   cupping/warping issues have already been well covered.

   Tim
6. 
   TomMGTC | Mar 29, 2004 11:55pm | #7

   I just made a tabletop with breadboard ends today. Doing them correctly is no small task. I don't think you'll have any trouble with it as is. I like the look of them on shaker furniture but for most other styles it looks out of place. I took pics of the process and I'll post them in another thread shortly. 

   Tom

   Douglasville, GA

1. 
   Buzzsaw | Mar 30, 2004 12:01am | #8

   Tom,

     Thanks I would love to see the pictures of the process. I am a visual person and it would help me considerably.  I think after all the posts I'm going to stand pat with what I have as the table appears very stable now and hopefully it will remain that way. Thanks.Regards,

   Buzzsaw

1. 
   Alan | Mar 30, 2004 03:12am | #9

   Buzzsaw,

   I pretty much agree with what others have said, but I'd like to add a point or two.

   When I was taught how to make these things, I learned they are called "clamps."  As that name implies, way back when, they were added to tops for reasons other than hiding end grain.  You see clamps on lots of very rough and ready kinds of furniture, pieces on which the makers largely eliminated what they thought were superfluous elements.  This leads me to believe the craftsmen thought they were doing something important.

   I don't know how much, or if at all, clamps reduce or eliminate cupping; but to reduce cupping is one reason they were used.

   Another reason is that way back when the table makers often didn't joint and glue the boards that made up the table top into a panel.  They used clamps to hold the two or three or four boards together and aligned properly.

   I cannot remember--if I ever knew--any more reasons they were used, though I would guess there were others.  I would think that some furniture makers, for some kinds of furniture, wouldn't knowingly waste their time adding elements that weren't thought to be necessary.

   Alan

1. 
   tsproul | Mar 30, 2004 05:49pm | #10

   to all.....

   how is that breadboard ends control movement of the top?

   seems to me, you all are making a few assumptions....

   1. the breadboard end is stronger than the forces applied to it if the top panel moves....engineering question, but by my eye, most ends don't seem to be near beefy enough to counteract movement of the panel.

   2. the breadboard end won't move (hah : ) ....it's wood too!)

   just wanting to know...Tim

1. 
   UncleDunc | Mar 30, 2004 07:44pm | #11

   On #1, we regularly get posts here talking about how you can't flatten a cupped board on a planer, because the feed rollers will press the cup out of the board while it passes across the cutter, and it will end up thinner but still cupped. That suggests to me that the force generated by a cupping top is likely to be in the mid 10's to low 100's range, which is certainly the same order of magnitude as the bending strength of a hardwood breadboard end.

   On #2, the breadboard end is unlikely to bow much, even if the top and bottom of the tabletop aren't finished alike. Other possible movements, changing width, cupping, or even twisting, wouldn't affect its function of holding the top flat.

2. 
   TomMGTC | Mar 30, 2004 08:32pm | #12

   I don't know any specifics as to how much force can be counteracted by the breadboard end but I do know that the tabled I am currently building is considerably easier to deflect across it's width than the breadboard end is. The breadboards stiffen the top considerably.Tom

   Douglasville, GA

7. 
   Omah | Dec 12, 2006 10:32am | #16

   When edge gluing a series of boards I always use counter grain support, whether its shelves, a top, or a door, or a side for a cab. The support can either be in the form of a cleat on the backside, or underneath the piece, or a breadboard support . I'm pretty sure your table has this kind of support already, when you fastened it to the base or rails. If not, your top will cup over all, and not necessarily each individual board. If you sealed the top and not the bottom. Just the difference in moisture that the grains will absorb from one side to the other will cause  movement because the bottom will expand while the top stays more stable.