Have any of you taken this wood through the whole process? How difficult is it to dry properly and mill?
forestgirl — you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can’t take the forest out of the girl 😉
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Forest Girl,
Years ago I acquired a big Black Locust branch from a tree trimmer (I was driving by and stopped to grovel for a piece) and found the wood to be one of the hardest, nastiest woods I had ever turned. Black Locust must somehow be related to American Elm as the respective appearances seemed quite similar. But I am not sure about the relationship and I don't have my wood species book handy. Of course it was branch wood which may have accounted for the difficulties I encountered. Beggars can't be choosers. I do remember lots of checking, warping etc which one would expect from branch wood. When milled however, the Locust was stringy, brittle with interlocked grain, gummed up and dulled both saw and bandsaw blades, and stunk awful. Obviously I was working the branch green but even when it was drier these issues remained. I can't remember much about the esthetics though the reference to elm seems correct in terms of grain pattern.
sawick
Sawick,
Were you trying to make the black locust sound awful? You succeeded!
I didn't try drying that, but I did take a section of a favorite tree (Prunis Newport) and tried to cure the log (4 ' long 10"dia ) and slice up the resultant wood. I had a similar experience. The flowers smell so nice I thought the wood would be just as pleasing. Not so. It was as roe a grain as you described.
I wonder if the diameter & length of the log makes it cure more evenly. Sawmills cut both green and seasoned don't they? My favorite, now commercial, mill stockpiles the rough logs then cuts them into lumber when it is too wet to get more from the field. I'm thinking it doesn't matter how cured the log is. They certainly don't paint the ends to inhibit drying. I'm thinking they cut it into boards green without a thought to a cure.
So many mills so little time.
Booch, I did have a nasty experience with Black Locust in the past and my post was not exaggerated, simply accurate to my then very novice woodworking expertise. Looking back I now realize I was dealing with large branches (reaction wood) from a huge tree grown out of soil that was intensely sand based, heavily watered by a nearby irrigation ditch and the tree was cut in the springtime thus obviously laden with the fluids of new growth. Again reminiscing, perhaps black locust would be a great wood for steam bending, but I have little real knowledge about that part of the woodworking craft. That locust event did not put me off though. I still am on the constant lookout for tree trimmings of any species except pines and firs in general.. These woods just don't work for me when making bowls. But of course (my bad luck) I live in Montana and am surrounded by thick forests of evergreens. What I would do for a nearby stand of walnuts...
sawick
Around here in Wisconsin we are overrun with Honey Locust trees. Someone decided it would be a good project to help them become established further in Wisconsin. God knows why. Yes they are pretty but it never gets big enough to make a decent board out of it and it is all sap wood from what I've seen. Black Locusts are infrequent here.
If you do artistic turnings the reaction wood is probably a good thing as you get a lot of movement after it dries. Kind of shows it's own personality. I tend to the plane world where the most done is curve a flat board or sculpt a set of legs. When wood moves strangely for me, I tend to strike with the table saw and reduce the board in half. For that reason I'm avoiding cutting more lumber, but there is always the next log!
You might ask at Breaktime. I'm pretty sure I've seen at least one mention there of using it for flooring, so it must be _possible_ to mill it.
How much would it cost you to have it sawn? Would it be an unbearably expensive if half of it turned into stovewood on the drying rack? If this is like that $0.18/bf walnut that Frenchy keeps bragging about, go for it.
Yes, I have taken it through the whole process and IMHO it is worth the effort. Black locust is a beautiful wood. In my experience as a sawyer and as a flooring manufacturer and installer I would rather work with black locust than the hickork and pecan that grows in Virginia. If you would like to see one of the locust floors in our house, click on the link and scroll down to the front porch floor.
http://www.velvitoil.com/Floors.htm
Barbara
BARBARGLL,
Your experience with Black Locust sounds profoundly different from mine. I wonder if some of the difference might be climatic in that trees from your climate grow "better" than trees up here in Montana? Or, looking back in vague memory, it is possible that the tree trimmer told me the branch was Black Locust but maybe it was really something else. Wish I still had some of that branch to again put it to the test. When I long ago groveled for the branch cutoff the trimmer had separated a huge crotch from the tree in order to prudently fell the tree without damaging the house nearby. If the wood has merit as you said, that crotch would have made some beautiful bowls. Oh well...
sawick
I think growing conditions make a great deal of difference. One thing you need with Black Locust is sharp tools. I have heard people talk about the dry locust causing sparks to fly when they chainsaw it. Based on my experience I figure they needed to sharpen and shorten the chain. :-) We actually have two floors out of BL, the other is plank.
Barbara, I'd agree with you, black locust is a beautiful wood...especially once it develops its long term, amber-gold patina. The only real problem with it is it's difficult to work, because it's about twice as dense as it would have to be for most furniture applications. Mighty hard on blades.
As for flooring and decking though, I doubt if there is anything native to North America that has better functional properties. It has outstanding wear resistance, decay resistance and it's a relatively stable wood...both in terms of volumetric shrinkage and low tendency to distort. Its average shrinkage stats (green to ovendry) are as follows: Tangential = 7.2%; Radial = 4.6%; Volumetric = 10.2%. In fact, it has lower volumetric shrinkage and a better T/R ratio than any of the oaks, maples or even cherry.
Forest Girl ,
Cut the stickers ,orshould I say spears off before you load the log . I cut one once turned out some fine wood .
The only locust that I have had experience with is black locust or for clarityhere, Robinia Psudo-Acacia. I've never had a piece of honey locust, Gliditsia Triacanthos, although the difference is distinct, especially in the fall when the pods can be harvested to make locust beer. The wood is reported to have the durability close to that of white oak.
The honey locust seem to have its thorns coming right out of the trunk and they don't easiy break off. Black locust thorns seem to be more like rose thorns and arn't as hard to break off. I used black locust staubs driven in parallel to make a low retaining wall. The termites promptly ate the white sapwood. I pulled up the staubs years later and they rang with a clear note when I knocked them together to knock off the dirt.
BJ
Gardening, cooking and woodworking in Southern Maryland
Very little movement in use would be true, but it is not the best in North America. Mesquite easily outperforms Black Locust in that regard having 3.2% Tangential shrinkage, 1.6 Radial Shrinkage, and 4.8 percent volumetric shrinkage, easily a 50% improvement over Black Locust.
I think proper identification is part of the problem with this discussion so I did some checking. Black Locust is commonly called Honeylocust by many people across the US according to the USDA Center for Wood Anatomy Research, and vice versa. True Black Locust species are all in the Robinia genus. True Honeylocust are in the Gleditsia genus. Black Locust can grow up to 100 ft in height and Honeylocust up to 80 ft. However, here in Kansas, Honeylocust trees are commonly larger than Black Locust. The USDA says Black and Honey have no "distinctive" odor or taste, however knowing how much more sensitive to smell some people are I'm sure there is an odor to many people just not a distinct one to seperate it from other species. As far as hardness they are rated fairly close Black being 1700lbf dry and Honey being 1580lbf dry. The big difference is in durability in which Black greatly outperforms Honey when left untreated. I'm sure sparks would fly when cutting old Black Locust post with a chain. Speaking from experience I know Old Osage orange post will create sparks when sawn event with a new chain properly tensioned and will rapidly destroy regular chain, the expensive carbide chain is most likely a more cost effective option for cutting old, dry logs. However, when cut green the wood does cut fairly easily.
Anyone want to buy some Black Locust? I've got a bandsaw mill operator coming to my place in eastern OK this winter to cut my Walnut. I'll have him cut them too. Got lots. Up to 20" diameter. I'm going to saw some into 6x6 posts for my sons back porch.
PlaneWood by Mike_in_KatyPlaneWood
Ya Mike, I'll take a few boards...How much you charge for shipping, (G)...Dale
P.S. Remember I like my lumber 1-1/8" green off the saw.
For some people I'll let it go for $10.00 / bf. :)
However, if they bring a thermos full of coffee and set and spit a while I've been known to give stuff away.
PlaneWood by Mike_in_KatyPlaneWood
H*ll I'll bring a coffee pot. You got a plug in that there well house? But, you and Rick can do the spitting, unless I bring sunflower seeds then I might join in.
But I will tell you this. If times are good when the time rolls around I'll take you and Rick out for lunch and then we will talk locust or grasshopper or what ever you wish to discuss except for the Dallas Cowboys. Have a Merry Christmas, Dale.
Disclaimer - I haven't used it, but I recall seeing it discussed in Hoadleys Understanding Wood book
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1561583588/qid=1038184665/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/002-8878472-2778440
to the best of my recollection, he said it was a difficult wood to machine, but that treated properly its potentail for positive results were very good. Believe library tables were made of it in his example. You may already have the book, if not, it's a worthwhile endeavor. Sorry I can't be of more assistance. Kahlua, anyone?
Kahlua, did someone say Kahlua?!
I just received the Hoadly book as a gift, but have sort of skipped around in it so far. Will take a look!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I used to buy lumber at a mill that would saw boards when they got a good locust log. I think that it is wonderful stuff and I've never had it warp when properly stickerd for drying. It is definately NOT inter locking grain. I've split enough for firewood and I'm sure. It is a legume and is not related to elm. Around here the sawmills are Amish and they make fence post out of any locust they get in.
I made my daughter a bookshelf with locust. It is 6 ft tall and about 36 inches wide, joined with sliding dovetails so that it can be easily dissasembled for moving without tools. It holds pride of place in her living room and is the envy of many who have seen it. This attention is because of the beauty of the wood, not my workmanship. Oh yes, and with such strong wood, milled to 7/8 inch thickness the shelves never sag from the weight of the books.
When turning it it takes a fine smooth finish with sharp tools and requires a minimum of sanding. If you choose, you can polish it with a fine grit carbid paper and dispense with a finish. Only you will know the difference. I always rub in an oil finish with the wet or dry carbide paper.
One caveat. Good sharp high speed steel or carbide tools are important.
BJ
There are two kinds of Locust trees common in the US, Black Locust and Honey Locust. Many woodworkers find the wood from both species to be desirable. The Black Locust is one of the heaviest woods in north america, the only other two that compare that I'm familier with are Osage Orange and Mesquite. Black Locust is very resistant to rot, in the same category as Osage Orange, far more rot resistant in our midwest environment than Western Cedar, Redwood, Eastern Red Cedar, White Oak, etc.
The Honey Locust is a lighter wood and much more prone to rot and wood eating insects. When properly protected though it is a very attractive wood with straight grain.
FG,
I recently built a house. I didn't want pressure treated as the portch floor and was too cheap to use an exotic.
I found 4/4 locust and had it milled, ripped and toung and groved. The wood dulls blades, can splinter and is just plain hard as heck.The sawyer was happy to see me leave.
The builder and I worked a deal that he would install it and I would pay for the material. He wrecked one of those rubber headed flooring mallets every day trying to straighten out the boards. He wasn't too happy. I had the floor sander do the portch and then put on a clear oil product (Messer's). I had some left over and did my daughter's bedroom floor.
It is drop dead beautiful. It ended up costing me $1.50 ft sq. It aught to outlast the house. I have seen 30 year old locust fence posts that are quite sound.
I made a little box with left over locust and walnut. It has a sort of honey greenish tint when lacqured and texture between ash and white oak.
You might try playing with it some.
Frank
Black Locust is a very beatiful wood that compares well with the exotic, Unfortunately because of the difficulty to work with , the lumbermen do not want to handle it. In Europe it is available for floors (12 mm. almost 1/2 inch) and is very much in demand because of beauty and durability.
I live in Western Maryland where it is possile to get locust, mostly for fence posts, 4x4. only from some saw mills. I have it ripped in one inch boards for outdoor structures, from picnic tables to trellis. If available locally you should try it!
John Cabot
Edited 12/9/2002 10:15:41 PM ET by JOHNCABOT
The boyhood home of Thomas A. Edison might have black locust floors throughout the interior. It was built about 1830 or 1840 by Tom's father, who owned a sawmill. It's in northwest Ohio.
ok so which locust tree has the silvery bark with The weapon like tractor tire killing thorns with whiteish heartwood. Is honey locust the brownish heartwood (smells bad) with thorns on the newer branches?
Around here the former is what we call locust trees. The latter Honey Locust. I know that honey locust around here split horribly in a wind storm.
Granted i dont know the latin scientific names and if i had known them id probably not be asking :)
both are considered weed trees here. However both excell at returning nitrogen back to the soil, but once they have good roots hard as hell to get rid out of your area.
Honey locust has the "tractor thorns" and black locust has the "rose" thorns.
Enjoy,
Dale Lenz
thanks, i was calling each by their other name for years.
Your welcome Bill, don't feel bad........I occassional call an ash an #### tree.
Bill, the term 'honey locust' is so commonly used for both trees that is is difficult to communicate and be sure you are understood. Gleditsia is the honey locust and Robinia is black locust. Honey locust thorns are modified twigs and grow right out of the wood and sometimes the thorns grow thorns. Black locust thorns are, as Dale says, like rose thorns and you can break them off like a rose thorn. But black locust thorns have flattened my tractor tires. I don't always know this stuff, BTW. I've got Peattie's A Natural History of Trees open in front of me.
BJ
Gardening, cooking and woodworking in Southern Maryland
There certainly seems to be a wide variety of experiences with this wood. Can't help but wonder "Which black locust is going to show up?" Keep the opinions coming, so I can hopefully see a trend!
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Black Locust, you say? When I was just a wee lad, we had hundreds of them on our property (NE Ohio). I have cut and split locust until I couldn't cut and split no more!
Some observations here hit very close to home, and would also explain a lot of the things I experienced. It is a very stringy wood, yet very hard and dense in the middle of the log. This led to certain splitting techniques, like placing the wedge off center to avoid the dense middle.
Stink? Yes, I remember the stink, made me think that it was ALL rotten inside. Hard on blades? I guess so, explains why the chain saw would have worked just as well without the chain.
I have recently heard that locust is THE choice for the draw-bore pegs used in timber-frame houses.
Take Care,
Donald in Okinawa
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