I am doing some research on an article I am writing and was wondering what your best selling projects are. I am cruising through the forums to find out what woodworkers are making that sell on commission basis at craft fairs, galleries, consignment shops, internet or wherever. I will let you know when the article is done so you can get some great tips on what to make that sells fast.
Thanks
JT
Replies
Nice try JT. Like we want our specialty niches items and reliable income sources broadcast to the world.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
Good one Hammer, although I am not trying to steal the design for your nuclear powered wooden spaceship here. I am just to see what types of projects woodworkers are making or see others make that sell well. You can be as generic as "I make a pretty nice coffee table that I sell online at my personal website". Please don't provide me with any trade secrets or designs. Although if you would like to plug your company that is more than acceptable. I may even link to your site in the article for some added promotion. JT
Just funnin with ya, JT. Couldn't resist.Although I have had a few items that I produced in quantity to a specific market, it's not my thing. I have a background as a carpenter, cabinetmaker and furniture maker. They are closely related but a bit different. I've never been afraid to work in any of those disciplines as opportunity presented itself.I think many in small shops use a variety of strategies to keep afloat. It may not be all woodworking, or if it is, interesting woodworking. For a few years I had a side product that is now mostly stamped out of some type of synthetic materials. I had done a kitchen remodel for a customer that belonged to an exclusive country club. When the club put on a pro golf tournament, I got the job of building leader boards and making the paddles that say "quiet please" on them. Next thing I know, I'm making the paddles in batches of 100. The woodworking part of the project was as basic as it gets but you had to control labor and be efficient. There were also the aspects of dealing on the corporate level concerning agreements and legalities. Processing numerous items, even small ones, can add it's own wrinkle. For these there was priming, painting, screen printing, wrapping, packaging and shipping. My shop would get cleaned out and set up for a few weeks dedicated to this one product.One of the architectural shops I worked for looked for specialty items in addition to the typical millwork and cabinetry that had been their main focus. They grew from a 30 employee 40 hr. shop to one that runs 3 shifts. They now make York spiral stairs and Duratherm windows. You see the stairs advertised in many magazines. The windows are primarily marketed through architects. They are a very nice European style window that are primarily used on commercial buildings. Outside of the ordinary metal windows used in these projects, I don't think anyone else is making high end wood commercial windows in mahogany and teak. A cabinetmaker in the next town has a CNC machine. He picked up a long term contract making French fitted wood cases for instruments. Once set up, it's pretty much load, off load. It doesn't take a highly trained individual to run, the rest of the shop keeps busy on other work while the machine makes additional income.On a couple of occasions, I've hooked up with some smaller chain businesses. Unfortunately, they didn't last long. One was a children's clothing store and involved making displays and cases along with graphic decor. Another Maine cabinetmaker also did some displays and cases for a company that has been successful globally. The contract significantly changed his business from a small shop to a major manufacturing facility. I have dozens of similar stories but I'll tell just one more. This guy is the epitome of the classic New England woodworker. He's just down the street from me but now retired. A direct descendant of a Mayflower passenger. Still lives on the land bequeathed to his family by the king. His main line was Windsor chairs. Cuts his wood off his own land. Has a small shop behind the house, weathered shingles and an old hand painted sign, coffee pot on the wood stove. Has had a few contracts for commemorative clocks, he just builds the cases. Limited editions for historic or special events, probably less than 50 units. Very nice mantle style clocks.Sometimes, projects just knock on the door. There isn't any marketing or advertising needed. It may be a specialty niche. Thomas Mosher had early success furnishing institutions like college library's. It's much better business wise to sell hundreds of chairs to a single customer than one or two occasionally through showrooms. The glamor can become faded when you have to produce hundreds or thousands of a particular item. When woodworking is a business, it's like any other business, it's work. The satisfaction you felt making some of your first raised panel doors takes on a different aspect after thousands. Meeting the logistics and time restraints replace the mechanics of woodworking and your feelings of satisfaction and accomplishment often come through those as much as the product.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
Hammer,
That's about as clear a rendition on the state of the modern woodworking shop - and modern woodworking practices - as I've ever read. Very well thought out and presented. And, it seems to me, very accurate as well.
Well done!
ZoltonIf you see a possum running around in here, kill it. It's not a pet. - Jackie Moon
Hammer,
Loved your post. Very positive. Very uplifting. We need more of those.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Unlike Hammer who doesn't want to reveal his niche products, I have no problem showing you mine. If someone can build it better, so be it.
It's um... errr.... it's clothespins... yeah, clothespins, I tell ya. That's the ticket!
Frank
View Image
That's awesome Frank I love it. I think you make a fine clothespin. It funny you posted this at about the same time I posted my reply to Hammer. I was going to use the clothespin instead of the nuclear powered wooden spaceship reference then I changed it.HAHA
JT
>clothes pin<Frank,Very realistic reproduction there. Is that a New York Curve on the secondary line grip or the more popular Philadelphia Curve ?Great finish as well ! Takes years to achieve that on a consistent basis.: )rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Joe,
When I read your request for info, I laughed. The question is a good and valid one. It's just that I have been on Knots for quite a while, and Knotheads don't take well to that question. It is a cultural issue. I can't wait to see the rest of the answers to you. I predict that you won't get much, but I am hoping to proven wrong.
I believe there is an easy way to answer your question if you ask it to a different audience. I heard a talk by David Savage of Great Britain earlier this year. He is one of the best known furniture designers and makers in his country. If you go to his website, you will see his furniture and the prices he charges. He doesn't have a problem with publishing photos and prices for his work. His reputation is made, and he is in demand. His website is:
http://www.finefurnituremaker.com/
Here is a list of other EXCEPTIONAL and WELL ESTABLISHED furniture designers and makers in Great Britain and in Ireland who David Savage talked about. Their work is FABULOUS. Not all of them have their prices listed, but they will give you prices when you write to them
- Edward Barnsley Workshop http://www.barnsley-furniture.co.uk/
- John Makepiece http://www.johnmakepeacefurniture.com/
- Johnny Hawkes http://www.pwlimited.co.uk/
- Waywood http://www.waywood.co.uk/
- Joseph Walsh http://www.josephwalshstudio.com/
For a person to give you the info you requested, they would have to be quite self-confident. On Knots, you should write messages to Ray Pine (joinerswork), Rob Millard, and Richard Jones. I believe they are sufficiently sure of themselves to give you some prices. You can find photos of their furniture on their websites. These guys are well established. Why not also write to Patrick Edwards. He is of the same ilk.
Have fun. I hope I have helped.
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Joe,
My best selling piece is an inlaid candlestand. I lost count of exactly how many I have made, but I think it is 11-13, since April of 2000, so that isn't what you'd call selling like hot cakes. Next in line would be a tie between a Baltimore Pembroke table and a mahogany and curly maple card table with 5 of each sold, but here again that isn't exactly a real barn burner.
Rob Millard
http://www.americanfederalperiod.com
Before people starting hanging televisions on the wall it was entertainment centers ("armoirs"), i.e. places to hide televisions that still had tubes.
IMO, the people who tend to do well today have chairmaking as the centerpiece of their portofolio and arsenal of skills (see Mel's link to David Savage). Why? They're bloody hard to make and they fetch a nice price. People looking for custom chairs tend to know they have to spend a lot of money to get them and they seem more informed than your average custom furniture tire kicker.
This exludes Windsor chair reproductions. That market is saturated for the most part.
Edited 9/14/2009 12:06 pm ET by CStanford
>Chairs and barstools bloody hard to make<An aquaintance ask me to make some bar stools for him. Three to start.He wanted bent bamboo for the back, a three leaf carved wood splat, caning at the base of the spine and lower back area . . .I don't do woodworking for my living.Hoping he would buzz off because these don't fit into my super narrow focus/skill set and having no idea what to do about bending bamboo, I don't carve and have never caned anything, I tossed out a thousand dollar a piece rough est.: )Probably too low even at that for three.I haven't heard back and I think we are both relieved. Whew.I have heard a chair maker doesn't even start to make a profit until after the third chair or later anyway.rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Edited 9/16/2009 12:11 am by roc
A whole helluva lot of talented furnituremakers would have run from that one or priced it high enough to take the time to acquire the skills to do the job, or sub'd some of it out. The resulting cost surely would have been much more per chair than your quote.
>resulting cost surely would have been much more per chair than your quote.<I figured he would have thought three hundred to be breath taking so I tripled it. He flew out to Sacramento right after so I figured if he talked to someone else and I had quoted five thousand they would have said "Who does that no body think he is ? ".Ah it's a fine line I tread in this life . . . a fine line I tell you.rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
IMO, the people who tend to do well today have chairmaking as the centerpiece of their portofolio and arsenal of skills (see Mel's link to David Savage). Why? They're bloody hard to make and they fetch a nice price.
You got that just about right. Big commissions come to me coupled to chairs most often. I have made more trestle tables after selling a couple windsor chairs. After the table, customers want another 4-6 chairs to fill the table.
I just made my 224th windsor. Again, lots more people are looking to sit down than you think.
As you stated, chairs take time and you have to figure out how you can get a set out .. pronto. I have 250 legs turned, lots of bows steam bent on the wall. Customer calls, carve the seat, bore the holes, leg it up and finish. Doing one at a time at the rate of one a week will not get you a commission for big jobs.
Things have been slow for me in my area. I don't use the web too much so maybe another could address that segment a bit.
dan
Hi Joe
Live edge work keeps me pretty busy, tables mainly.
Timberwerks Studio Blog
Timberwerks On Twitter
My best selling furniture has been bar stools, then coffee and end tables. My non-furniture items that sell well are rolling pins, cutting boards, and bowls.
I have been building what I call my Arborescent Table line for about 25 years now. I am not sure how many I have built, and I don't have photos of many of them. Arborescent, or Tree Form, meaning that there are four legs all close together with about 1.5" between them. They form the trunk, and have a couple of root buttress feet crossing between the legs.
The legs branch out into limbs which usually support a thick elliptical glass top, which has a slight green cast due to being thick, which represents the canopy.
The limbs are joined to the legs with mitered bridle joints into the long arms, which are crossed over by the short limbs. I have forgotten the name for the other joints, but it looks a lot like some Japanese puzzles that I used to make. The unassembled joints are really prettier than the finished table, so it is usually bittersweet to assemble them.
I only have one left, and I think I have a buyer for it, so I need to start thinking of what the next version will be. There are always ideas working in the back of my mind, but having a customer come along wanting one that will fit in XYZ size space usually gets to make the call for a short run.
keith,
come on lad, give us a look!
eef
Ya know I was thinking the same thing, post a pic!I was married by a judge - I should have asked for a jury.George Burns
I found this one - puuuuurrrrrty.
http://www.woodcentral.com/shots/shot728.shtml
Eef, I need to get better organized and try to promote myself better, but that is just not part of my makeup. A friend helped me get started on a new site, but I need a good kick in the butt to get more shots over into it. Here is a link to some, but I really have a hard time doing this. Most of the time, I am struggling to make ends meet, and when I deliver the pieces taking time to set up for a shoot is just not in the budget, or would delay getting a check in the bank. Being a custom furniture designer maker is not as glamorous as most of you would think, when it is the only source of income, and your name isn't Maloof or other famous makers. I feel lucky to have made my living in a small local market for > 30 years, and I'm happy that I have the good friend that become customers who keep me going. Here is the new site that I am working on.If there are any locals or tec-savy gurus who would like to stop by and help me pull together a respectable site, I would welcome the help. Khttp://web.mac.com/keithnewton/iWeb/Site/Functional%20Furniture.html
WOW! You are a true artist. If you have done this for 30 years and even if its just making a livin not a kilin, you are a lucky man. I loved the desk. I have never seen anything like it. I was married by a judge - I should have asked for a jury.George Burns
Thanks Bones
Wow, what incredible furniture. Blows me away.
"Most of the time, I am struggling to make ends meet, and when I deliver the pieces taking time to set up for a shoot is just not in the budget, or would delay getting a check in the bank. Being a custom furniture designer maker is not as glamorous as most of you would think, when it is the only source of income, and your name isn't Maloof or other famous makers."
Keith, with fabulous pieces like those on the web page you linked, if you aren't at least past the scraping along point, or more reasonably, making a quite healthy living, in my most humble opinion, you aren't charging enough and/or aren't getting the exposure and marketing you need!
I don't have a list of solutions to offer, but I know in my gut that they are out there. I can identify with self-promotion being "not part of my makeup" as you stated above. While you may not have that special personal magic that leads to a world-wide following like Maloof, one would hope you could develop a market that pays you what you deserve.
You, my dear sir, are the best-kept secret in the furniture world! forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Hey FG, You said <You, my dear sir, are the best-kept secret in the furniture world! > Thank you and the others for your fine compliments that you have given me. I wish I were better at presenting myself, and could get someone who would be willing to help me get the work in front of the people who are buying this kind of thing. I am open to connections. I am not trying to be secretive. Out here in the middle of the country, I have not gotten invites to some of the big shows on both coast which then travel around the country, so I have missed the opportunity to enter lots of shows that I have seen, and would like to have been a part of.Even when there are local shows, the juror doesn't always choose my work. You may be surprised to know that the Arborescent Desk wasn't selected to be in the Delta which is our big annual Art Center show, back when I entered it. You can probably imagine how disheartened I felt when viewing that show. There were big open spaces with pedestals, one with nothing more than hair wound onto a sewing machine bobbin, with a needle threaded on it. I am not sure that I understand what art is sometime. Presently. I have six pieces in the Arkansas History Museum show along with several other AR makers, but don't have a retail gallery representing me now. I have a kitchen project underway, but I have to say I am bored to death doing that kind of work. Nothing would make me happier than for the rest of my life I could just make things that had no flat surfaces and challenging joinery, but I the demand for those projects are rare. One of these days, when I get good enough, maybe I will get to see my work in this magazine. I have not made it yet, but there is always hope.
"One of these days, when I get good enough, maybe I will get to see my work in this magazine. I have not made it yet, but there is always hope."
you're good enough now, IMHO!
keep submitting pics!
I have a friend/horse-owner client who is very oriented toward art-inspired-by-nature. She is out of state right now, but when she returns, I will send her a link to your web page.
Remember, for when the right marketing person enters into your life, it's going to cost money, but that's an important part of cost of doing business, and it should return itself several times over. I guess the trick is knowing that you're talking to the right person, and s/he's worth the investment.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Keith,
Jamie nailed it with the best kept secret statement. I have seen your site prior to this thread and like C. Stanford said, was blown away. I remain confused as to why yourself and others with this unique artistic ability remain at the crossroads, relatively un-noticed.
When you speak of being disheartened at not having your desk selected , I can feel your pain, your work is pure art and they are blind.
Tom /an admirer of Keith Newton and his work.
I did see where Keith made a desk for Hillary Clinton, so his extraordinary skills haven't gone entirely unnoticed. He ought to pick the phone up or write a letter and ask Mrs. Clinton to put in a good word with her Westchester County neighbors. There's a lot more money there than there ever was in Little Rock.
Edited 9/20/2009 5:32 pm ET by CStanford
Re: Hillary. As Secretary of State, perhaps she could take a few of your pieces along with her when she travels! Get the international market!
Kidding.
Your work is incredible. It's hard to come up with the right adjectives when describing something as rich with quality and personality, not to mention the design creativity. Thanks so much for sharing it.
--Jonnieboy
Thanks, but I think you meant to reply to Keith Newton. It's his work that has all our jaws dropping.
Oops. Sorry C. Sorry Keith.
jonnie
Hi, Keith. Far be it from me to offer you advice, I'm just starting out, but you might consider a 'business of wwing'-type class. You aren't too far from Marc Adams (maybe there's something closer to you) and they have a Developing A Career in Furnituremaking with Michael Fortune in October that might interest you. If nothing else, you'd get to talk with Michael Fortune and whoever else is teaching that weekend.
Anyway, if it doesn't help, you'd just be out a couple of days and a couple hundred bucks.
Love your work!
Chris
I'm with Forest girl on this one. I was blown away by the table. I love how you made those hinges.As for Juried Art shows of even juried craft shows. Some of those jurors are wacked out. I have asked to see there work and it is no means art and very little craft. Then I asked one so who appointed you as a juror even artist. Was she mad no one has ever challenged her.She took a Bachlour of Fine Arts and did something a for the "Last" big class with a complete show and all the fluff. We then all your class mates consider you and artist, with opinion that means something!! I think there was an unwritten rule if it had any functionality it could not be art PERIOD, can hear the minds slam shut. Then the Art vs Craft debate begins as heated as two woodworkers fighting over cutting tails or pins first.As soon some one referes to my work as a "nice craft" I walk away. Got no time for someone like that. One complete arrogent person that "works in fabrics" was decrying all
garage woodworkers as hacks and unless you had a huge shop and 5 people working under you were nothing. She works out of her basement no less. So I smacker her with a comment about a very well known sculptor around here.I said so he makes the plaster cast and sends it to a foundry to be poured. Then he does not work in bronze her works in plaster.
But she insisted he was the artist that made it come alive in bronze. Got her all wound up then said, that Me doing my wood work and the person at the foundery are practising "Performance Art" making this piece of what ever you want to call it. Like a dancer we move about our performance floor, exicuiting precise practised moves and routines. Well she had steam coming out of her ears and had half of the party laughing at her.
So I went for a smoke and my wife gave me a bit of grief for ripping her guts out, but agreed she started it.Ramble X 3 anyway. I cannot say all my work is art but other can see it. Marketing is a bear. But one thing we do not do is shameless self promotion. My daughter used to listen to MIM or what ever that Carp diguised as music was. I asked her I I ever refered to her mom as a ho, etc and she said "of course not" then I found out he was white preaching a black poor person well I banned the music.So how come all these big names that really do little in the way of anything meaninful make all the bucks? Cause there ego is huge!!!! and some another huge ego has money and marketing knowledge.I would be asking for a pic of Hilery standing by your piece. Then a little controvsery , I'll stand up and said I made it. Then you put up your price and say you have a 4 year waiting list. Spin your way in.
Keith, your work and photography are wonderful. Those vessels look like they dropped off a magical tree in a primordial forest. It's the type of work that inspires creativity and opens the eye to seeing unique possibilities. I'm going to steal the idea of cabinetry in the archway. Thanks for showing us what you have so far.Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
Truly beautiful work Keith, I wish I could see it in person.
................................................
Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.~ Denis Diderot
Keith,Your work is impressive and inspiring. Bravo. If I may say so, you needn't worry about having a lot of photos in a website. Just be sure that what you do put there is top-notch photographically.I can well understand the (psychological) difficulty in promoting yourself. The moment that my own business became a partnership, it became much easier to promote the "brand name" as it was no longer exactly "me" that I was selling. Maybe you need to get some professional but part-time help in marketing and PR. You've already got the elements of a distinctive and exclusive style. With the right clientele it could be bringing in a lot more than "making a living" but it won't happen by itself. Not any more than a tree will turn itself into a beautiful desk.again, bravo on your labors.
David Ring
http://www.touchwood.co.il/?lang=e&id=1
Thanks David for the compliments and encouragement. If you know someone who would be a good rep for me, please send them my way.Have you finished that African project?
Sorry I don't know anyone in your neck of the woods. It's a bit off the map for me.As far as my African project goes, a few people have asked about it so I'm posting something separately. Regards, and good luck,
David Ring
http://www.touchwood.co.il/?lang=e&id=1
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Keith, can I make a really tiny recommendation here, re: the 'Functional Furniture' web page? If it were mine, I would go in an edit the source code to change the title of the page to Keith Newton. The title is what shows up on the tab in Internet Explorer, and gives the Favorite it's title is someone bookmarks the page. It's a small thing, but I think it matters.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Thanks for the tip. I will see if I can do that. I didn't link to the home page, which probably would show my name, but I didn't think about after that.
keith,
what can i say? your work is stunning. your designs are heroic and flat-out unique. thank you for sharing.
eef
Whoooooah!. NOthing else to add to other comments.
Question - the Mackintosh love seat - Mahogany?
Yes, 16, 1/16" plys bagged together with epoxy. Making the curved parts was the easy part. Assembly was the scary part. As I started the dry-run assembly, I realized I would never get it apart without breaking out the little parts between joints, so I had to glue it the first time together. You can't imagine how anxious I was doing that. Like a big puzzle, it seems like there was only sequence to assemble it. I made that piece back in the mid or late eighties. While it is signed, I don't think I dated it back then.
That piece is currently part of the exhibit showing at the Arkansas History Museum, running through mid Jan. if anyone reading this is passing through LR, and wants to see my work.
Jeez. That is amazing. I am a big fan of Mackintosh - been all throughout Scotland - hit the big sites - Hill House, Willow Tea Room, etc. I assume the original was likely made from ash maybe? with lap joints?
I REALLY like how you graduated the horizontal pieces. Creates a great visual sweep of the entier piece.
I've been looking for a source of CRM design details. There is a reprint of Roger Billcliffe's Complete Furniture, etc coming out soon, but for $200. (used copies of previous editions run $300+). Any suggestions?
I build as a hobby for personal use, not for sale. I'm not even close to being in your league - low minors maybe, v. the big leagues.
Do you know which chair inspired that piece? It is the semicircular one with the champaign glass back. Seems like it was in the Tea Room.Every time I would run across his chair, I was drawn to the simplicity, yet would wish I could find a shape to make it my own. I was starting into my Elliptical phase at that time. If you could roll that back out flat, you would see that the shape on the ends are two semi elliptical shapes similar to the seat which is an ovoid, which is also two semi ellipses joined with a common short axis. thanks for the comments. I have not seen the book that you mention.
Oh, yeah - I definitely know that chair. It is (or at least, was 10 yrs ago) in a very prominent spot in the Willow. Kinda front-and-center as you walk into the seating-tables area.
Link to book at Borders - available other places, am sure. They make it sound link the CRM design holy grail. Probably one of those occasions where I take a deep breath and just go for it.
http://www.borders.com/online/store/TitleDetail?sku=0810993201
Keith,
Your work is absolutely stunning both in conception and execution. Congratulations!
Jimhttp://www.jimreedy.com
Hey Keith, your work is very impressive you are true craftsman through and through.
Hammer
I'd forget about trying to deal with people like him. They get nowhere fast. Stick with people willing to share and save time. Just my II cents. lol
This old thread is just one example of how vibrant and interesting this forum used to be before people at at the magazine were replaced by silly spam filters and other software devices to not have real moderators.
Deleted
why should one make a repectable income
from a hobby? a hobby is a hobby is it not?. one can make a repectable income if you do a decent job and are in it for the long haul, not just as a back yarder
ron
Deleted
I pay a price
to be in business .legitimately. I don't work for beer and pizza. I just detest thedse guys working out of their backyard. no licence, no taxes, no b----r all. you want to do it for a hobby, for yourself-no problembut once you start charging for it, that makes it a different story
ron
Deleted
Unrealistic expectations
If you seriously took 24 hours (3 full days) to build that deck I can give you at least 16 reasons why you'll never make it as a professional woodworker: it's called billable hours.
Realistically, that deck is a 6-8 hour build with a labor cost of $150. And that would include the railing. It is a simple business model, you charge what the job is worth and either make a decent profit or take a hit if you can't complete the project within the projected timeline. You're 16 hours over, regardless of what you thought it was worth. Interesting though that you're complaining that all you got was $50 when you stated you were "helping" a neighbor. We had some wind damage in our neighborhood a few weeks back and I spent an entire Saturday helping my neighbor rebuild his fence. I supplied the compressor, nail gun, nails, and other power tools. At the end of the day I got a hand shake, a cold beer, and a big thanks from a neighbor. I wasn't expecting anything more.
Off and on I've been making a living off woodworking for nearly 40 years. I've drifted between hobbyist and professional several times. It is unrealistic to expect to sit in your shop, turn out "custom" stuff, and make big bucks. If you want to make a living at woodworking you have to quit looking at it like a hobby and start looking at it like a business. And in any business, if you're not smart enough to find a profitable niche you'll end up broke and incredibly grumpy.
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