Hi All,
First time poster, apologies if this rambles…
Need some advice. I’m planning to set up a small woodworking shop in my basement – only space that’s available right now. Small table saw, and almost all of the rest will be hand tools.
One thing holding me back though:
The basement is 24×32 and completely open, the gas fired furnace and HW heater are on one end. Planning to use some sort of dust collection system (Read: roving shop vac), but how concerned should I be the dust that gets past that system? That is, in my mind, furnace flame + fine sawdust = potentially bad situation. Or am I being paranoid?
Appreciate any feedback, Thanks,
Joe
Replies
You are being cautious, not paranoid. In truth, unless the dust in the air is so thick you can't see through it, the mixture of dust and air is too lean to explode or burn.
Thanks Rob, That's kinda what I figured, but since we just built the house, I'm paranoid about "blowing it up". Thanks again
For a truly illuminating experience of dust explosions, the trick that usually got us kicked out of the Boy Scout camporee was to take a box or can half filled with flour, stand back about 20 feet from the Blazing Campfire of the Unexpecting Victims, hold on tight to the container and FLING the contents as hard as possible aimed at a point about 10 or 15 feet above the fire. If properly executed, it was like a fuel-air explosion but not strong enough to kill anyone. I forget exactly what merit badge this was part of.
fotoflojoe,
Does your furnace get an outside air feed? My furnace is about 5' from the table saw and next to the router table. My oil man suggested a seperate air feed. I do keep the area fairly clean and no problems so far. Also, I have a couple of 20" box fans with filters in front of them to help with air born dust..works okay. I did try to build a filter box that could protect the burner from dust...not so easy.
Edited 10/14/2004 7:28 pm ET by BG
BG, No, the furnace and HW heater work from the ambient air in the basement and then exhaust to a power vent. I'm considering an air filtration unit (Delta? Jet?). Might be a little exessive, but eventually, the shop will move out to the "luxurious" garage. I'd do that right off the bat, but right now the garage has no power, heat or insulation. Thanks for the feedback!
Just a couple of things to consider if you haven't started building the basement shop yet and you have the unfinished space in the garage:
Basement shops (I have one) usually have humidity issues that require a dehumidifier to control tool rusting, among other things, or at least here in Maine. Headroom might be an issue, depending on height of basement. Usually, natural lighting is not great in the basement. Any noise generated will be heard upstairs, even with insulated floors. Access to the basement may be an issue if only stairs are available. Don't consider these as negatives, just things to be addressed. Some positives about a basement shop; easy access to installing heat, and convenient to use.
Outside shops: better lighting, more headroom, less noise in the house, easier to get tools, materials and projects in and out. They may require heating throughout the winter depending on your climate to stop condensation and tool rusting. Dust control is necessary in both shops, no advantage or disadvantage to either here, except the noise of a dust collector won't disturb the TV watchers.
You may want to consider both choices, and get some idea of wiring, heat, and insulation costs for the garage vs. setting up shop in the basement now, especially if you plan to move the shop there at some point. Good luck with either choice, just remember that a shop is never finished, or big enough.
Hi, Yes, Humidity will be an issue - I'm located just west of Boston, Ma. Planning on setting up a dehumidifier wired to a timer. But the basement shop is most definitely a temporary thing for the winter. The garage is where the shop will ultimately move to. It's a two bay and 30 feet from the house. But it needs work - it existed on the lot where we built the house. Needs insulation, new wiring, a new floor and some form of heat - none of that is in the budget right now, :(.
Biggest drawback to the garage though, is its floor - it's 50 year old asphalt uneven as all get-out. I have NO IDEA how I'm going to handle that.
My shop was in a basement for years. I used the plastic that someone else mentioned and I have a HD DC. I also purchased a dehumidifier. Mine would fill up a three gallon bucket a day. My shop was on the side of the house that was underground. I got tired of emptying the thing all the time, so I put it next to a drain in the same general area and let it run all the time with the water going down the drain. Did not have excessive rust problems. I'm in a garage now and just having the light is nice. Good luck with the shop.
fotoflojoe - Only 50 years old floor, I'm building a 'dream' shop in an old barn which is about 70 years old. Right now half of the floor is thin, broken, uneven, concrete - the other half is bare earth!! - My solution will be concrete over damp proof course. I am installing a wood / coal burning central heating system (But I will be able to isolate this in a small room so dust hopefully will not get near it) If you do use concrete you might like to read the thread on underfloor radiant heating which is quite popular but I don't know if running pipes 30ft. from the house is an option for you.
If there's that much sawdust, you should be more worried about your lungs. Breathing in lots of sawdust is a serious health hazard. The other problem is dust getting into the air intake on the furnace, clogging things up, and dust getting into the air ducts and blowing it around the house.
Actually the system is Forced hot water, not forced hot air, so I don't have to worry about sawdust getting blown through the house. But yeah, I have been reading about how sawdust is a known carcinogen. Funny that though, all through college, I worked at a lumber yard during summers and vacations. My one overwhelming memory of that experience was at the end of the day, being COVERED in the stuff. A breathing mask will definitely be part of the shop - and it will be used. Thanks Andrew.
I tried a variety of masks but kept coughing after a session at the saw. What finally worked was a respirator. I use the 3M 7502 with the #2091 filters. The cost is minimal but the savings to the lungs...priceless (couldn't resist).
These respirators have a seal around the mouth and nose that does not let anything thru yet are comfortable and adjustable. When I sprayed my basement, I would always have paint up my nose that got thru the masks. Masks cannot create a strong seal around your face.
For my basement shop, I cleanup sometimes mid-session just to stay on top of the dust. Also, 20" fans blowing out the windows to direct the lightest dust away from me. What I don't skip is cleaning the furnace and water heater, tops/sides/under/etc at the end of each day. If your front panel comes off, clean there too.
As for breathing sawdust, try floorsanding as a job.
Burt,
I just went on-line to look for the 3M 7502 respirator and found it. It doesn't say anything about the filters though. I'm wondering if they come with them. Also, how many times can you use this respirator? Are they disposable? The reason I ask is because they are selling them in quantities of 10 and 100.Regards,
Buzzsaw
Buzz,
I got 1 each of the small #7501, for my wife, and medium #7502 for myself. I bought 2 filters to try out. Got the whole package at monstersafety.com. I like the devices so much I will order duplicates for backup and I may try some other filters. The 2091 are specifically particulate rated P100. Since they are not rated for hazardous fumes they are inexpensive.
I believe the pricing was something like $20.64 for the masks and $10.32 for 2 filters. With freight $7.39 it came to $58.99.
Thanks Burt. I'll look into the website...I appreciate your response...Regards,
Buzzsaw
F,
The coal industry figured out that the best thing to do for dust is to ensure movement of fresh air past the work space. One window at one end of the shop, and one at the other with a fan blowing in one way and out the other is optimal. This really is not a great idea all year long if you are in a temperate zone.
Removing the dust at the source is helpful with a dust collector.
Having a way to scrub ambient air is also important. A mask for crazy-dusty operations is helpful. You need a tightfitting mask with nuisance dust filters.
I am a pulmonologist. I have seen 8 lung cancers in non-smokers since 1985. 4 were in woodworkers. Please me as meticulous with the dust as possible.
Best regards,
Frank
Frank,
As a doc, where do you come down on these air cleaners?
As you probably know, the folks at Oneida claim that air cleaners create more problems than they alleviate. If you haven't seen their piece, I can post the link here.
Thanks.
I have heard rumblings about this. I am not an industrial hygenist but would be glad to review it if you send the papers. It is very complicated and has alot to do with the amount of respirable particles before and after the filter is used.
Frank
Frank,
Here is the link to the article critical of ceiling mounted air cleaners.
http://www.oneida-air.com/techarea/health_haz.htm
It is written by Robert Witter, and aside from being an employee of Oneida Air Systems, I don't know what qualifications he brings to this set of comments.
In other threads, the piece was criticized by some posters. They felt that since Oneida is in the dust collection business, naturally they would be critical of air cleaners.
My own interpretation was just the opposite. They certainly have the technical and manufacturing capability of producing air cleaners, and if they chose to do so, it would be a natural addition to their product line.
I will be very interested in what you think about his remarks.
Frank,
Since every article deserves a counter point, I'll include some counter points that have been made to the Oneida article. Here are two responses from a poster on another forum to the Oneida article. I found the responses to be a good counter-point to the article and would be interested in your thoughts as well. My hope is that with both sides discussed everyone will be better able to make their own decision on air cleaners in WW environments. Thanks!
--Rob
Response #1
"Before everyone starts trashing their air cleaners I would like to point out a few things in the "article" cited. 1) Oneida is in the Dust Collector business, not the air cleaner business. They want you to buy their expensive dust collection systems rather than an air cleaner. The article is, by definition, biased. 2) The article does not cite a single valid source for its so-called "scientific approach". There is no peer-review, no experiments were conducted and no data were collected. 3) The article does not state what the collection efficiencies were for the air cleaners that it attacked. Most systems now offer 1 micron or even 0.3 micron filters. 4) The article incorrectly states that "It is the 1-10 micron particle size range industrial hygienists consider the most damaging to human health." While this is generally true for most airborne contaminants, the primary threat to woodworkers is naso-pharyngeal cancer. Particles from about 5 to 50 microns deposit in the naso-pharyngeal compartment. There are numerous other inconsistencies in the "article" (diatribe is probably a more appropriate term) that make its conclusions worthless. This is a subject that I know a good deal about. The bottom line is that effective dust collection and air cleaning involves several factors. The primary factor is source reduction. This is done with a dust collector system. However, even an Oneida dust collection system does not collect all dust created by woodworking activities. An ambient air cleaner *will* help remove the remiaining airborne dust. If I get some time, I will cite some peer-reviewed technical journal articles that support my point. They exist and their conclusions are real. Mr. Witter's treatise is a cheap-shot marketing op-ed piece, not a scientific reference. It should be treated as such. "Tim -- Woodnet.net forum
Response #2: Italics are from a posting that another forum member made to the original posting above:
"I have no intention of trying to change your mind on this issue. However, I do think that it is very important that people who are considering an ambient air cleaner know the actual facts, not some marketing propaganda. So, my remarks are not necessarily argumentative, just illustrative.I don't want to go into how scientific or factual the article is, but it is what it is. I am not sure at all what you mean by "it is what it is". The article "is" neither scientific, nor factual. The author makes several specious points with no basis in fact or scientific principle, yet he claims a "scientific approach". Assuming the 1-10 micron particles pass through the air cleaner, they will remain airborne, and the air cleaner will continue to circulate those particles within your shop over and over again. If you can get these particles out of the air, than you should do it. There are several severe flaws with this argument. First, your initial assumption is false, which pretty much blows the rest of the argument. Most air cleaners have an efficiency of at least 85% for 1 micron particles, and efficiencies approaching 100% for 10 micron particles. This is well documented. Therefore, your assumption that "1-10 micron particles pass through the air cleaner" is false. You also said that the air cleaner will continue to circulate the particles over and over again. It is probably important at this point to understand a little bit about small particle aerodynamics. A 10 micron particle of wood (assuming a density of 700 kg/m^3 and typical values for air density and viscosity) has a settling velocity of about 2 mm/sec. A 1 micron particle has a settling velocity of about 0.02 mm/sec. The 10 micron particles will eventually settle in still air (after about about an hour for a height of 6 feet), but shop air is never still. A good guess is a settling time of 2 to 3 hours for a shop with some HVAC air movement and casual people movement. For 1 micron particles, the settling velocity is so low that they essentially act as a gas and for the time frames of concern (hours) they never settle. As a result, particles 1 to 10 microns in mean aerodynamic diameter essentially never settle for a typical shop session. This would be true whether there is air stirring (by an air cleaner for example) or not. So, while it is true that an air cleaner that was transparent (not correct as I have shown) to particles of this size would redistribute them, they would remain airborne anyway. So, the argument that an air cleaner would redistribute these particles has no merit.Now instead of blowing air, I will be sucking air. I assume by this that you mean you are using a dust collection system. Let me just point out that they suck *and* blow. Furthermore, while air cleaner filters are typically efficient at collecting dust particles in the 1 to 10 micron range, most DC bags are pretty much completely transparent to particles under 30 microns. What these systems do is collect most of the dust from the source, trap the big particles, and spew the small particles into the air. This is in contrast to air cleaners, which do not add anything to the airborne dust load, but only serve to reduce it. If you are only relying on your DC, you should be using upgraded bags that filter to 1 micron or better. Just to summarize (since I tend to get a bit wordy on these issues), the article is specious for the following reasons (among many):1) It assumes that ambient air cleaners have zero collection efficiency in the 1 to 10 micron range. In actuality, most units are at least 85% efficient for those particles - meaning that they will remove 85% of the particles that enter them.2) It assumes that ambient air cleaners contribute to the redistribution and resuspension of small particles. This is incorrect. Particles this small will remain suspended for many hours regardless of whether the air is stirred or not. The physics of this is undeniable. I suppose one could argue that if the exhaust vent is directed at dusty surfaces, the air movement could stir up particles that have already settled. However, if the unit is placed properly, this should not be a problem. Moving about the shop would tend to stir up much more dust than air movement, and if you use an air cleaner, there would be much less dust to stir.Ambient air cleaners can be an important part of dust mitigation. However, it should not be relied upon as the only means of dust control. A good DC system (with a 1 or 0.3 micron bag) combined with an air cleaner can dramatically reduce the amount of airborne dust in a shop. "Tim -- Woodnet.net forum
fotoflojoe
I too have a basement workshop, and there's only one window as an outlet for fresh air. My biggest problem is not dust circulating throught the house via furnace, but just controlling it so it doesn't cover everything in the basement. My cheap and quick solution was to use big sheets of plastic hanging from the ceiling rafters, to block the workshop area from the rest of the basement. Not perfect, but it does help.
Welcome to Knots!
I agree with Andrew - keep the air clean enough to breathe, and the appliances will be fine.
Having messed around with a bunch of inadequate solutions (shop vac, small DC), I heartily recomend that you make one of your first purchases a 2 HP dust collector with good filtration (canister filter or quality felt bags).
Kent,
I too have a basement shop and can you please suggest/recommend a dust collection system? Also, will I need a separate circuit breaker for it? Thanks...Regards,
Buzzsaw
"I too have a basement shop and can you please suggest/recommend a dust collection system? Also, will I need a separate circuit breaker for it? Thanks..."
There have been entire books written on the subject, and they're worth reading ( I like the one from Taunton by Sandor N.). As a quick recommendation, what I'm doing for my 400 SF shop is a 2 HP dust collector with a 12" impeller and canister filter and 5" metal ductwork.
EDIT: Yes, plan on a separate circuit, preferably 240 V, for the DC. They draw a lot of current on startup, and you'll be running another tool at the same time, so trying to squeeze a DC on a shared circuit usually menas popped breakers.
Edited 10/17/2004 10:06 am ET by Kent
You can never be paranoid when it comes to your safety, however there shouldn't be a concern with an explosion or fire. I have a basement shop with a table saw, router table, mitre saw and drill press in a 20x15 area and right in the midst of it all is the furnace. The flame in the burner is usually isolated anyway and also there is more of a concern from an explosion with the static being produced by a dust collector than with the furnace. I usually open a window when I am sawing and I have my DC grounded. I have been doing work there constantly for 3 years now and not a problem. Wouldn't hurt to run the shop vac over the furnace when you are done as well, not only does it decrease the chance of a fire, but you won't get that yearly lecture from your furnace man when he comes to clean it.
"My next residence will be a workshop with a house attached."
Edited 10/15/2004 10:36 am ET by donnybongo
Edited 10/15/2004 10:38 am ET by donnybongo
Edited 10/16/2004 2:51 pm ET by donnybongo
I have had a basement shop for the last 1.5 years. The furnace and hot water heater are in the shop area. Just for convenience I framed a roomy space around the water heater and furnace and covered it with pegboard. I lined the bottom 2/3 of the wall around the utilities with plastic to keep sawdust from being blown through the pegboard by my saws. I have a 1.5hp dust collector with 1 micron felt bags to collect the dust. I also hung an air cleaner in the ceiling to collect the dust that the collector misses. In addition I have a dehumidifier in the shop that runs almost all the time in the summer. I live about 40 miles west of Boston, so I expect you will have the same humidity problems as I do.
I have not seen much of a rust problem, and running the collector and air cleaner religiously keeps the dust to a minimum, and I haven't seen any indication that dust is being circulated through the rest of the house. There are no heating ducts or return vents in my part of the shop space.
Sound does travel very well up the heating ducts so I can only use the loud equipment when no one is trying to sleep.
Take care.
Frank
foto-
The biggest problem *I* think you'll face is the buildup of fine dust over time all over the water heater and furnace. If you can enclose them and provide for combustion air from the outside, you'll keep em' cleaner and reduce maintenance by several orders of magnitude. Plus you'll improve the efficiency of the appliances by not using inside conditioned (heated) air for combustion.
I don't think there's that much of a danger of fire or explosion - I worked for several years in a garage with both a gas hot water heater and furnace closer sounding to my work area than yours is. But, I faced the same situation of having to constantly dust and clean both appliances. I don't believe there's a dust control system available that will keep the air *really* clean.
From Beautiful Skagit Co. Wa.
Dennis
The big concern with the hot water heater and furnace would be the use of paint thinners and solvents. Many of them are highly flammable and heavier than air so they can pool at ground level and move to the area of the flame with disasterous results. That is why most codes require hot water heaters in garages to be mounted several feet above the floor. You would need a good exhaust fan to prevent this problem.
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