Is this a common thing? A co-worker of mine mentioned that he was going to pick up an aquarium for himself and asked if I would build him a stand. I agreed and life proceed as normal. Yesterday he brought me some measurements for the piece, and I drew out a couple ideas I had. One was an open base design, which I figured on roughly $360 + materials to build. The other that I had drawn was cabinet styke stand with two doors and a bank of drawers. With the added difficulty of the drawers and doors I had fiqured $800-1000 would be the right place to start for labour. Today he comes in and says, he and his wife talked it over and they will just wait to see what comes in to the second hand store and just get something from there. Do people just want you to give your labor? Don’t answer that question, I know the answer.
Just needed to get this off my chest.
Derek
Replies
Hey Derek,
Sorry to hear about the lost job.
I think that the problem is that folks base their expectations on the cost of mass produced, factory furniture, and then are surprised when their champaign taste meets their budwieser budget.
If you gave them a nice set of drawings, they'll have something to study and ponder. If they're really nice drawings, they'll use them for a benchmark when they go second hand shopping, and may eventually discover that they can't find what they've come to want, second hand.
Good luck,
Tom
As far as I can determine, this is not unusual. I had a "friend" that wanted seating and storage around a pool table. After discussions over dinner and other social activities with the friend and his wife...I was always asked to bring my tape measure with me when visiting...we agreed in a design for five blanket chests made from birch plywood. I was to cost the job out and give them an estimate. My estimate was $375 each, which I thought was EXTREMELY reasonable. When I presented the estimate to the wife, her comment to me as "$375 a piece?". Well, I didn't budge on my end, and I never heard from them on this project. I also was not invited for any more dinners, etc. I think most people want custom built pieces for what they see in Wal-Mart. I would like to make my hobby support itself financially, but have decided that my best approach is to treat it as a hobby and not worry about the money. I would rather give pieces I've made away rather than feel I short-changed myself on a paying job.
-ken
hello Kennybrew,
I believe Mike has said it all very well. It's not much consolation but I have to tell you that the same problem exists here in a very acute way.
Stick to your guns- concentrate on quality customers, form strong liaisons with them and above all deliver superior quality.
Having said that, here I am battling to find ANY customers who appreciate decent workmanship....
Thank you for all the support and horror stories. I just am a early morning late night WW. I squeeze these things in between my other two jobs. Why would want to do 25-30 hours work in my spare time for under $5/hour. That is crap. My wife has plenty of jobs for me if that is the case. I rely on these other jobs to avoid working on my own house. Anyways, I need to start Christmas presents pretty soon and that will kill the rest of the year. I am going to make a pedestal table and 6 windsor chairs for my in laws. The best part is that all my wifes siblings pay for materials and I supply labor. cheap present. $5/hour x 40hours=$200 that's cheap,eh? Shouldn't any longer to make a table and chairs should it? Everyone else thinks that it can be done that fast. HAHAHAHA
Derek
After similar experiences, I tell people from the very beginning, that I can't compete with factory built prices. If they want a custom item of superior quality, of unique design, that will last, I am the guy. That way I don't even get to the "measuring" stage if they are not seriously interested.
The worst to deal with are the friends and family. "Will you make me a gun rack?" No. "Will you make me some shelves that will fit in there?" No. "Will you...?" No. That's not to say I have not built some items for friends and have been paid the going rate, but I have also been up front with them about cost from the beginning.
-Bob
It is a hard sell to make the first time. However if you are really good and your finishing technique is great, they will be hooked. With few exceptions I have never sold one piece to someone. For those who can afford it, custom furniture becomes an addiction. When I go to sell a job I bring a CD with pics of my best work and examples of my work. I have a smallish raised panel door made with a bridle jointed cherry frame with a figured maple panel stained contrasting colours mounted to a morticed walnut face frame. Then I have a few cut-offs of very nice wood that are finished imaculately. All the finishes are builtup, leveled and buffed out to perfection. If I think that it will help, I leave these samples with the customer and tell them to take them to the best furniture stores in town (Dallas has a lot of very nice galleries) and compaire them. The problem with "selling" the customer is that they don't realize the difference. The never noticed that the glued up panels on their kitchen doors weren't book matched. Two days ago I had a wealthy intelligent customer who thought that raised panel doors were one piece of wood! He didn't know that the frame and panel were seperate pieces. They never noticed that most of their custom cabinetry has an imperfect orange peeled finish, or that their nice furniture has heavy finishes designed to hide the mismatched grain and colour, and that is why you can't even see the figure. They don't know what figure is! If you can explain this with out coming of as a know-it-all, you will do a lot better. Allow them to see the differences and then elaborate on what they discover. Don't overload them with technical B.S. and try to let them do the talking. When the subject of price comes up (I usualy let them bring it up) I give the broad range of what the costs are. Like 4,000 to 9,000 for a large entertainmant center. Before that sinks in to much I keep talking, explaining that a lot depends on how ornate it is and the technical challenges the job presents. I also always mention that the price includes delivery and installation, which costs hundreds at a gallery.
Basicly you have to be a sales person. That seems to be the most difficult thing to develop for people who work in a shop making sawdust and swinging hammers.
By the way, I have never sold a piece as nice as my sample door I carry around. Nobody has, yet, been willing to ante up that kind of premium. But even if I use pocket screws and cope and stick doors, I always machine all lumber from rough stock and matchgrain and take great care on the finish.
Don't be discouraged,
Mike
Long story short.
Friends needed their bathroom redone to be able to sell their house. I needed a website. I had the skills they needed, and they had the skills I needed. Here's the agreement we struck: Labor is donated. Out of pocket expenses are reimbursed straight up.
I went contributed to the labor exchange agreement first. Had my crew tear out the old floor tile. Rebuilt floor and installed new. Spent three lovely hours in the home centers on three occasions trying to friends make a decision on vanity, cabinets, etc. Finally placed the special order for the fancy stuff they picked out. Next day, phone call from friends. Guess what? We sold the house. We'll just slap in a cheap-o vanity and forget the fancy stuff we ordered.
To borrow from Homer J. Simpson: "D'oh!"
Ate the 15% restock charge. Between 2 days pay for the crew, some materials and etc., this friend is up to nearly a grand in out of pocket costs he needs to reimburse me for. AND he's oblligated to punch some keys and make a website.
They sell house and move. I schedule him to sit down and talk website three times over next 8 weeks. Each time, I was the one calling to confirm the meeting the night before. And his wife was the one cheesing out of it with lame excuses. Friend never called to reschedule, not even after the third time.
Can you spell abandonment, boys and girls?
Enough's enough. Sat down and taught myself website stuff. Now have a nice site. Tracked down my new EX-friend and hit him with a bill (via e-mail) for exactly what he agreed to. Nevermind the work HE was supposed to do on the website, nor the fact that I invested time in doing it.
Suddenly he's become Mr. Communicator, figured out how to use the phone, and wants to know why I "didn't give him a chance to do the site." and that he "didn't realize i was serious about doing one."
What a weiner! I'm pretty direct. Especially when it comes to my business. No way I was unclear.
Bottom line. Family and friends get NOTHING, unless it's donated help or advice. Better yet, the next time you consider doing something for family or friends, consider it a LOSS, because if you were going to do work for someone you didn't know, you would have gotten paid for it.
Consider it a loss. That's what I'm doing with woodwork or home repair right now.
A guy I ride bikes with asked for some help. He was overloaded and needed some help. I drove to one of his rentals and fixed a few things, cheap. I was helping him out. Now he wants more. I talked to him about my rate and went down to where he wanted. I haven't had the time to help him again but I consider it a loss.
I'll never make any money doing this. Well maybe never is too long.
I can't even get my wife to respect the work I do and she's seen some really nice stuff come off my bench. In one ear and out the other.
Same thing happened to me with an old college friend/roommate.
I was to make a table for this ugly a$$, gaudy glass top that he and his wife had in exchange for a website. I held up to my end of the bargain and delivered an ebonized maple table within two months. Table looked good, glass was still ugly as hell.
My attempts at talking about a website after that were avoided and filled with excuses about not being able to do it this month, next month, etc, etc. Finally I blew up. No more friend. That was 3 years ago, haven't spoken with him since and I still don't have a website.
I hope the table falls apart, or better yet, I hope they drop a rock on that ugly glass top.
absolutely correct.
VIVA SANCHO RON!
"Affairs on the border cannot be judged by standards that hold elsewhere."
I've had some of the same results you have. My worst was a co-worker who was building a house. He asked me to do some special milling (about 45 min work) to some hardwood flooring he was about to install. I told him my rate per hr.. He agreed to my rate.. I did the work then told him since he was my 1st customer in my NEW shop, I would only bill him $1. I would frame the $1, and put it on my shop wall as the 1st $1 earned in the new shop... It's been 2 years.. He hasn't paid me yet..
Put a lean on his new house!
LOL,
Mikeplease excuse my spelling.
Mike,
Sometimes the misspellings make it better. I bet putting a "lean" on his house will be even more effective that putting a "lien" on it! I love it -- you can bet you now have their attention.
Woocy
Make and hang a frame in your shop. Put an IOU in it. Ask your friend over. He may even remember the work you did for him.
Derek,
I'm always interested in hearing how others deal with these situations when they arise. I've been building 'serious' furniture for only a few years with my primary client being LOML. Having turned 60 a few months ago, I retired from working for the other guy and would like to begin selling some of my better pieces.
I've been approached by acquaintenances, friends, neighbors, family and my wife's co-workers. As soon as they find out I don't work for free, they lose interest quickly. I've listed myself with CustomMade.com and have had a few contacts via their website as well as my own. These have been, for the most part, people who have already gotten a quote from one of the big boxes for kitchen cabinets and, when I explain the facts of life about custom pricing, they seem a bit put off.
I learned from someone far more experienced than I that I should never let a potential client see a drawing until they agree with the concept and pay up front for design costs. I made the mistake of giving some friends my design drawings for an entertainment center we had discussed and then never heard from them again.
Our UPS delivery guy has talked with me a couple of times about my woodworking and asked if I'd build him a 'simple box' in which I could mount his radio/CD player and speakers so he could put it in and out of his truck. After telling him I couldn't touch it for anything less than $100 plus materials, he never mentioned it again.
One policy I have is not even to get involved in 'kitchen cabinets' or anything that requires even a slight modification to a client's house. There are plenty of people who will do that kind of work far cheaper than I will anyway. There is liability involved in working in someone's house as well as with products like cribs and cradles. There are plenty of things to build that are reasonably free from litigation potential.
I could probably exceed the posting size limit with stories and I'm just trying to get started doing commission work.
Good luck!
Bill Arnold - Custom Woodcrafting
Click Here if you're interested in a good,inexpensive website host.
Food for Thought: The Ark was built by amateurs; the Titanic by professionals.
I think that it can be even worse than people thinking that you can compete with wal-mart pricing for custom furniture, i think a lot of people think you should be able to build it cheaper than Walmart. Don't be afraid to break out your costs to someone who gets offended by your costs. Many people would be shocked to know that you cant obtain the materials for the money they want to spend. Of course parse is carefully so that you don't reveal your profit.
Unfortunately, I think most people just don't understand what's involved in custom work. They forget that you have invested $5k or $10k, or maybe more, in tools. They also don't have a clue what materials cost these days. To be realistic, how can they? They go shopping at WalMart, or what have you, and see goods that are sold at rock bottom prices. They don't see the fact that the people who made these items were paid virtually nothing, so to them, woodwork is obviously cheap. Of course, they're also used to buying junk that will be thrown out and replaced many times over in their lifetime. We don't live in a society where craftsmanship and heirlooms are worth considering. Throw it away and buy a new one and another one and another one ......
I've had similar experiences. People are willing to pay for half the material cost and think that's exorbitant. Oh well. I'm in this to satisfy myself, not others. I admire craftsmanship. I hate cheap junk. My idea of furniture isn't something that's held together with knockdown hardware.
My only conclusion is that I'm out of touch with reality. I live in my own little world.
That's OK.
I like it in here.
I don't think I'm going to leave.
The Wal-Mart mentality is a drain on our society. Cheap, cheap, cheap, that seems to be the motivator for most people's buying decisions. I look at "cheap" furniture from 50 years ago and see that it really wasn't all that cheaply made, maybe not beautiful, but at least it would last for a while. The natural resources that are going in to the garbage being made today is disgusting. These manufacturors know that their furniture won't last and that's good, because they can sell the same thing to the same person in five years when it breaks. People just keep buying the junk like some sort of demented sheep.
Let the flaming over my hatred of Wal-Mart begin.
The Wal-Mart mentality is a drain on our society. Cheap, cheap, cheap, that seems to be the motivator for most people's buying decisions. I look at "cheap" furniture from 50 years ago and see that it really wasn't all that cheaply made, maybe not beautiful, but at least it would last for a while. The natural resources that are going in to the garbage being made today is disgusting. These manufacturors know that their furniture won't last and that's good, because they can sell the same thing to the same person in five years when it breaks. People just keep buying the junk like some sort of demented sheep.
++++++++++Heh. Cheap demented sheep.Co-worker wanted a rack to display her quilt. Asked for something inexpensive -- she knew she'd have to pay for materials -- made it out of SYP, and hour or so on the scroll saw and drill press, some sanding, shellacked it instead of oil because she was worried about the kid teething on it. Whinged at the cost of SYP.Husband installs it per instructions -- kind of. "It's warped." I go out, look at it. Is it warped -- hell no. Is it level -- hell no. Studmuffin didn't bother using a level, he "eyeballed it." Explained use of level. "Can I borrow yours?" "No. Sears sells a half decent one for about twenty bucks. Get at least a two foot one." "Is that what you have?" "No, I have a Starrett. It costs about a hundred bucks, used, if you can find one."Gahhhhhhh.Leon Jester
Its all about keeping busy and making a few bucks isnt it? ( speaking as a hoby guy, mind you) If the customers want cheap. give em cheap. There are a lot of people making unfinished furniture. When you figure that 1/2 the time involved in a project is the finish maybe they have something. I ike the idea of making fine pieces too but if all they are going to do is end up in my house which is full of stuff the bride commissioned now, why fight the tide? Even cheap stuff we make is going to be better that the cheap crap Wal Mart sells.
"Come on down to Cherry Johns, where we sell cheap stuff, cheap!Wicked Decent Woodworks
Rochester NH
" If the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy........yessa!"
John,
I think it was John Ruskin who wrote, "There is nothing on earth that some man may not make a little more poorly, and sell a little more cheaply; and those who consider price alone are that man's lawful prey." Welcome to WalMart...and Cherry John's?
Business is comprised of two types of outlooks. The Marketing outlook and the manufacturing outlook. The Manufactures say " This is what we make now go convince the customers to buy? The marketing crowd says " What do you want to buy and for how much?" I have always been partial to the marketing mentality. Would I like to make things I am justifiably proud of? Yes I would and I have. Will people line up to spend $600 or more for a piece of custom made furniture? Not unless you are very well established. There are several threads in here right now that deal with cstomer price expectations and they all come to the same conclusion and that is we are all victims of Wal Mart pricing. People want custom but the want the Wal Mart price on it. So the long and short of it is make what they want not what YOU want to make. Sales/ Marketing 101.
Someday when I get around to hanging up a sign it might say
"Wicked Decent Woodworks......."we screw the other guy and pass the savings on to you".
Its what they want to hear
Wicked Decent Woodworks
Rochester NH
" If the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy........yessa!"
Edited 3/5/2005 4:31 pm ET by CHERRYJOHN
Hello Cherryjohn,
I just have to respond to your latest submission.The "marketing crowd" who are realistic will acknowledge the following:-
1)Custom quality at Wal Mart prices may happen- but rarely and definitely not on an ongoing basis- simple Economics.
2)You should always, but always , make "things" you are proud of, and yes there people out there who will pay for it (albeit for a variety of reasons ranging from a desire for superior quality to plain vanity).
3)Very well established?? Assuming possession of knowledge, skill and equipment you produce a sample and show it to the Right Customer and the rest follows- I know from experience.
So the "long and short" of this is that you definitely make what the customer wants- but at your standard (very high )and at an agreed price. If you can't agree then you have the wrong customer or you have failed to educate him as to difference between good custom work and mass produced factory stuff.
4)AS for factory made stuff- read what Joinerswork says. And furthermore I say that although factories can produce high quality they cannot equal that produced by a skilled craftsman- I mean just think about it. Factories are good for Quantity Consistency (boring) and Speed.Please look at the cover of FW#154- assuming you actually have a factory up to this standard that Pennsylvania Secretary will not be produced for long before that factory starts looking for ways to cut costs because there is not the throughput to recover thse overheads etc arrrgh one can go on and on....Jost one more thing to make my point: can you name just one factory that produces this superb piece in anything even near this quality and INDIVIDUALITY? and at what price? Remember there are customers who pay for individuality in addition to quality- are they going to buy a mass produced factory made version?
Phew, I feel better now, and hopefully not too many people have been bored by this submission.
Tried to spell check this submission but the machine refused- quantity instead of quality?
I like what you say and given the right customer demographic there is a lot of validity to what you say............... however. I took some time to re read these posts and tried to come up with a ratio based on the responses in here. It is just a rough guess but it looks like more than half of ther respondents in this thread dont come to the same conclusion you did. We all want to do out best work and have people look at it and say "wow, stop me when the pile of $100's is big enough". However more often than not they say " wow, a hundred bucks for that?"
Wicked Decent Woodworks
Rochester NH
" If the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy........yessa!"
The reason people say " wow, a hundred bucks for that?" is usually because they don't have any idea what they are looking at. They are comparing apples to oranges. Uneducated consumers are the last people I want to make anything for. No independant craftsman can compete with a wal-mart mentality and if you think you can you will be broke pretty quick. You can't even buy materials for their finished product. The market is out there for our skills, the trick is finding a way to tap that market.Tom
Douglasville, GA
Tom, my advantage here is that I am a hobby wood worker , as I stated early on, not a guy needing to make sawdust to put the canned tuna on the table. I ony hope to make enough out of this to pay for my tools and materials. What I am doing is looking at what people want to buy and how much they will pay for it and figuring out how to do it profitably. First thing I have discovered is that most folks dont have a clue about "wood". I made my best friend a mission coffee table out of red oak for his 50th birthday. I said it was red oak and not white oak and he said " I just thought oak was oak" Now I know we can go off on a noble quest to educate customers about the cost difference between the two woods and why 1/4 sawn white oak is the best for this project but considering that most people figure wood is anything that isnt particle board you have a very daunting quest. Some of us look at this thing that we do as functional art and look at ourselves as artists. Some of us look at this like a business man and look to find the largest customer base and supply what they want. Artists, generally, make money after they are dead; business men make it now. If you are well heeled you can afford to be an artist. If not, better be a wood worker who is a business man. I know a wood worker who is an artist and he has as many customers as he can handle. He is not the norm however. Nice to aspire to and copy his technique, but some of us have it and some of us dont. The way of the world. That doesnt mean that there isnt a market for what we can do.Wicked Decent Woodworks
Rochester NH
" If the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy........yessa!"
Hi Cherryjohn,
The conclusion I have arrived at is the result of sweat and dedication to improvement whenever practical- and the ability not to be stopped by the Wrong Customer. We all face the same problem- look at those guys who make proper watches- they are up against the likes of Rolex, Tag, Omega and others, yet they do well- can name some. Then you have the likes of Patek Philippe- a factory, yes, but when you look you find that there are real craftsmen there- they just want the security of employment- and their prices are huge.
You just have to go on improving until you stop The Right Customers.
.
I guess its possible that sometimes we are our own worst enemies.
I went to a craft show in town here a couple of years ago. Two guys were selling intarsia projects. One guy was doing it for a hobby, the other for a living. Both did incredible work. Gorgeous stuff. The hobbyist was making stuff out of pine and staining it. The other guy was making his pieces out of different species of wood. The hobbyist was selling an eagle for 50 bucks. The other guy was selling his for $300. Guess who was making the sales? Guess who's not coming back to the craft show?
Edited 3/6/2005 1:12 am ET by wooden splinter
My point exactly. We seemed inclined to try to sell our original art to folks who want to buy posters.Wicked Decent Woodworks
Rochester NH
" If the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy........yessa!"
wooden,
Your story reminds me of a sign I saw above the door to a business: "We have no problem with our competitors who sell for less--They know what their product is worth."
And what Cherryjohn contends is very true. A lot of folks don't know or don't care to know the difference between good and indifferent workmanship. Who was it, P.T. Barnum? said that no one ever went bankrupt by UNDERestimating the intelligence of hid customers.
My, we're getting a little bitter here aren't we? (Maybe it's just me.)
Cheers,
Ray
Have you checked out IKEA? I saw a "solid" wood cherry end table selling for $150, the only thing solid were the feet! I guess they meant it wasn't transparent! I shop at Wal-mart on occasion for disposable items, batteries, sox. underwear, etc. I know what to expect and I'm never disappointed.
Anyways, with family and friends I only barter, it keeps the headaches to a minimum!
It's a shame that so many people have no idea what materials cost and the amount of work involved.Last year I built red oak columns and pilasters for relatives. Fluted columns, 5/16" flutes, 1/8" reeds (flat portion between flutes). 6" base, ogee and cove molding, capitol and crown at top. I did not charge them my usual fee as they are relatives. Wealthy friends saw the job and wanted same.
No problem with the first people, same thing but lots more. 4 columns and 8 pilasters.$420.00 each column, $320.00 each pilaster, $800.00 for installation. They gladly paid me when done. Next job is painted poplar, my bid $390.00 per column, there were no pilasters. Lady of the house says I'm $200.00 too high per column. She is under the impression if it's paint grade then the price should be at least half of hardwood.Poplar compared to red oak on this particular job is about $85.00 difference, labor is the same , actually $21.00 difference per column for material.
I left her a card and never expected to hear from her again. I suppose they couldn't find what they wanted at Lowe's or HD, I finished the job last friday at my price.
I sometimes think there are a lot more of the latter customers then the first one.
Mike
Sounds like he couldn't afford it. Don't sweat it. Move on.
Has anybody itemized the tools they've used for a project?
My Mom wanted a plant stand to put in front of her spare bedroom window. She looked around but couldn't find what she wanted. Most were in the 28 - 32 inch high range. She needed one 36" high. Her birthday is in February, so in January I sat down and sketched one out and built it for her. Turned out alright, if'n I don't say so myself.
I own a small business. One particularly dead morning (I was bored out of my head) I made a list of the tools I used building this simple stand. My list ended up being 30 tools long! And those are only the one's I can remember using.
I must be one of the luckiest SOB's on the face of the planet. Still bored, I decided to list which tools I'd received as gifts and which one's I bought myself. Turns out, out of the 30 tools, I actually only bought 10.
I guess I come from a long line of sawdust makers. My family still likes home made over store bought (even if it leans a little). LOL
Edited 3/3/2005 7:39 pm ET by wooden splinter
Despite comments to the contrary ...
Factories can produce better quality work than you can. They can do it at a lower price. Most furnituer factories find the market is in lower priced (and lower quality) items.
Your best chance at selling products for a price you can live with is to sell products that are not produced in factories. Your second bast chance is to set up a factory for your building.
I beg to differ over the "quality" of furniture produced. "Quantity" is another thing altogether. The reason they make cheap furniture is because the cost of making quality furniture is too high. You CAN buy quality factory made stuff. Only thing is you can't buy it at Wal-Mart, you can't get it cheap, and you have to live with what they make, not what you want or need.
Derek,
I don't get as much of this now as I did when I did home improvements. My worst was a couple who wanted an elaborate deck, but thought it would cost the same as a lumber yard ad, or the guy who wanted me to cut my price to match a quote he got from a lumber yard.
With the period furniture I make now, people already have an idea of how much things like this will cost, so I rarely get the dropped jaw. Still, I get the occasional request for some more common stuff, when I do, I smile nicely and say I can't compete with factory furniture.
Rob Millard
Just read this whole train of opinions and it actually helped me out. It started by being mister nice guy and fixing some antigue furniture for a friend,no big deal since I didnt expect any payment,then comes a friend of a friend who just needed an old sewing chest that belonged to her grandma fixed and I did such a beautiful job on the antigue ice chest she saw that I repaired could I please help her out etc. etc. I sometimes think word of mouth is the best advertizing available and the hardest to stop from getting out to people. My friends sister in-law who happens to be married to a general contractor brings over a flip top deacons bench made from quarter sawn white oak,a cradle missing 3 spindles,all the slats for the bottom,one side rail made from walnut and a chest of drawers with no top, no back panel,and all the drawer runners and interior frames are gone- could I do anything for her on these? After himming and hawing I get cornered into fixing these broken antiques. The only saving grace was I said this ain't going to be easy or cheap and I gotta tell you right now that old mortise and tenon joints don't like being taken apart so it could just break and you would be worse off than before,of coasre this did'nt phase her in the least,so I fixed the furniture,hells bells I even put Dutchmen joints and inlaided new wood where corners used to be. I planed walnut and quarter sawn white and even got some of my chestnut out to fix the old dresser and every couple of days I'd call and say " thought I better check with you about this,its getting pretty expensive" and don't ya know she was tickled with every thing I did and handed over a great big wad of cash without blinking an eye,she even thru in a case of beer. I guess the best way is to make out like its the one thing you don't want to do or you just hate doing and the people will come. Who knows sometime I my get to build some of the stuff I want to do sometime.
derek ,
With friends or family , my policy is this : charge them full price with a deposit up front like any other paying customer , OR do it for free . Anything in-between will most likely cost you something . I personally would rather keep my friends and either not work for them or do the job to the best of my ability and charge them full tilt , not rip off prices but normal and regular full price. As far as sketches and plans go someone mentioned that they won't let them see any until they pay , what I do is show the plans as a proposal and reference point , but not give them a copy until I see the green of their money.
good luck dusty
Customer education is good, and managing expectations is good, but what really works is cash in advance.
I had an idiot upholstery lady ask me to make a leg for a sofa. She had lost one of the set.It was 6"x6" and 3" high,and a rounded pyramid shape. It was three pieces of 8/4 oak glued together and band sawed out and finished.
I called the uph. places and found the same shape and called her and told her that she could buy four new ones for $30, and have her guy spray them with the touch up stuff they have around and be done with it. Didnt want to do that...wanted a match to old one...Said OK, materials $30 and $70 labor to glue up, band saw, and sand,and she has her refinisher finish it to match the old ones...Humph!!!! I looked like a bad guy to her, but "I dont need no stinkin work like that" I am sure we all have more stories like that than anyone could believe.
But the bottom line is that folks have not a clue what some one off thing should cost...The only bench mark they have is the crap that they buy from places that get it from third world sources...
I just do the stuff for them for 'doin' it'.. I sometimes break even!
Perception is our enemy. Friends and family think, "If he makes it for me it'll be cheaper than buying it at the store."
They don't understand economy of scale. And they have no idea that most everything they own or see in a store is veneered, not solid wood, let alone quality hardwood.
Friend here at work asked me to make a blanket chest for the baby room. Said it would be "special" to her and her husband because I made it.
I agreed to to do it for the cost of the materials. Found one on the N.Y. Workshop which she and her husband loved. Sent off for the plans and then spent 30 hours making it.
When I presented it to them (drove it to their home) they raved about it. He and I schlepped it up to the third floor baby room and I left.
More rave reviews from her at work. Then a week later she shows up with pictures of the chest after she and her husband painted it. It looked great. She showed the picutures all around and everyone loved it. But the focus had changed from my craftsmanship to their decorative skills.
Got a "thank you" note from her in my work mailbox.. along with a picture of the chest.. but no inquiry about the materials cost and no offer to pay.
I'm not going to present her with a bill. I will consider the lesson learned my payment.
And you will not believe how many people at work are now asking me to build THEM a blanket chest, too. Sheesh.
My sister bought two bookshelve for $75.00 total. She asked me to build her some frame and panel doors with glass in the top 1/4 of each door thats divided into 6 panes. She came with me to pick up the materials (maple and maple ply) and could not get over the fact that the door materials were more than the crappy veneered particle board bookshelves. Good thing we did a labor trade. She does some very nice design work when I need it.
At this point, most every family or friend has seen a price tag on a large enough piece of furniture to know what to expect. And the rare non-family customer sees the portfolio with prices alongside each piece. But that doesn't prevent some interesting conversation regarding an estimate...and this from people who command a premium for their work because they are very good at what they do! Try these on for size:
"I thought you did this as a hobby?"
"A hobby is something I do for my own pleasure. If you want me to do this for your pleasure, I need to be paid for my time. And I'm not a cheap thrill."
"Why so much?"
"This requires $500 in materials PLUS 50 hours of my time. What would consider a fair hourly wage for a self-employed skilled craftsman for this work?"
"I don't know...$10 an hour...?"
"For $10 an hour, I'll do a lot of things...load trucks at UPS or bag groceries at Dominick's. But I can't build that piece of furniture for you."
"Can't you work faster?"
"There are a fixed number of steps to get from start to finished on this design. Which steps do you want me to skip...the ones where I cut the pieces to the correct length?"
I don't mean to sound cynical or flip with these responses, but I do mean to put things in proper perspective for the person asking the question. Keeping in mind there have been more than a few $10/hour projects, there comes a point at which your work should command a higher price in exchange for your time. If it's still a thrill at $10/hour, go for it!
tony b.
"A hobby is something I do for my own pleasure. If you want me to do this for your pleasure, I need to be paid for my time. And I'm not a cheap thrill."
Love that come back. Its like saying " I aint no pushover but I can be had"
That come back deserves to be framed and put behind your bench or wherever customers can see it.Wicked Decent Woodworks
Rochester NH
" If the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy........yessa!"
CHERRYJOHN ,
The way I say it is :
" I'm not cheap , but I'm easy "
dusty
Cherry,
Here's a comeback I overheard at a show many years ago. Another furniture maker's wife says to a passerby, "Well, Honey, just 'cause YOU can't afford it, that doesn't mean it's expensive!"
Regards,
Ray
Now thats funny, I dont care who you are!....Wicked Decent Woodworks
Rochester NH
" If the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy........yessa!"
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