At what point are you a “Craftsman”…
Just a thought that crossed my mine yesterday when I had to perform surgery to remove a cancer from a chest design I drew up originally. The flaw occurred as I did not calculate the extra inch that a secret mitered dove-tail base piece extended beyond the front of carcass. I cut the template for the curved side design and the proportioning was off on the side base pieces as the front portion was 4″ and the rear was 3″ since there was not miter there.
I didn’t notice till after assembly.. but only the oil finish was applied and left to cure. So.. a simple surgery by re-applying the template.. marking and the Bosch barrel grip was the tool of choice. Cut to within 1 mm and finalize with a rasp. Re-apply oil and nobody will ever know I of the original muff. My mechanics are pretty good and I have extreme confidence with fixing a mistake.
But.. I am no finish guru after 36 years so do not consider myself a “craftsman” at this point. Whatever a craftsman is….? My question is what point do you consider you have arrived at “Craftsman”? The definition according to Webster is: a person skilled in a craft; artisan.
A professional is someone that receives money for their craft where an amateur doesn’t. But… that is not what I am looking for as I have seen professional work that is not as good as amateur and some with a much higher degree of skill.
So… just wondered what your thoughts are of when and what point do you step into the role of “craftsman”? And it is probably as evasive as our perception of “fine”. Just thought it might be interesting as after 36 years I have no clear answer… Do you?
Hope to hear thoughts from both amateur and professional but must warn that I have a full agenda in the shop every day.. so I may not be able to reply individually to everyone. Just would love to have your thoughts to go over on coffee break from whatever role that fits down there in my little world?
Sarge..
Replies
Sarge,
I am no finish guru after 36 years so do not consider myself a "craftsman" at this point.
Oh, contraire for what is craft? Finish in your sentence above does not mean completion. Ya, I know kinda picky.
But certainly you made the piece, as well as fixed an error so does this not constitute craftsmanship. It does to me. Perhaps a craftsman is decided by others and not oneself.
Now a master craftsman in Europe was quite another story.
The tail wagging the dog.......................
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Kind of my point... what do we consider a craftsman and at what point do you reach that here as we "do not" have any guidelines set for what it actually means and how we can reach the peak as with the European system.
Even without an apprentice program.. I can dig.. scratch and claw my way to the peak as I will find a way. But.. before I do that I have to know where the peak is located to conquer it and simply I don't. Maybe it wasn't a good idea to even post my thoughts as I'm not sure anybody else can give me clear directions either.
Just my thoughts as I have to go get started with "finish". I know where the peak is there (when I'm done and the sooner the better) and look forward to reaching the summit so I can go build something else.
"Rose's have thorns and silver fountains mud" according to Will.
Sarge..
Sarge,
Cant speak for others, but for me, I would bestow the accolade "craftsman" on someone with demonstably good skills and - cant justify this really, just my feeling - the willingness to share their skills. By that I mean answer questions about how things are done. I think this shows the selfconfidence that a craftsman has - he can share his craft skills secure in the knowledge that sharing them will not diminish him.
So, my accolade of craftsman would go to a person that is more than their work.
The only simile I can provide is the difference between a pretty woman and a beautiful one. You can tell pretty from a picture, but beauty is so much more that it takes in person experience to determine.
Mike
Well Said
Tom
Sarge,
My point is that it's not up to you to decide. At least that's the way I look at it.
Ask your wife if she thinks you're a craftsman, your next door neighbor, anyone in here. I'll tell you what I think not that it'll get you a cup of coffee! Yes, you are a craftsman. I say that 'cause you have clearly demonstrated that you can craft pieces of wood into useful/artistic pieces.
Look around your woodshop, your house. Are there pieces that you made? Ask yourself, why did I make those? I'm not talking about just furniture pieces either. Jigs, guards, patterns, you name it. Stuff you did.
Who was the greatest race car driver? No one answer to that one either. What determines when a craftsman has reached the peak of his craft? No answer to that one either and I doubt you'll find one.
What I'm trying to say is that I think you already have your answer.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob, so far I would have to agree with the responses. I wanted to add a side thought, if someone is given x amount of wood, to build a hutch. when complete, the joinery is, tight, aligned properly, and the piece has a finished look, even raw, then I think it is safe to say that person is a craftsman. The same for finishers, they may, or may not, be able to make it, but this can also be said of the builder not being able to do finish. So with that said, if we all finish our projects and they go as planed, and look the way we want, then I think we can all call our selfs craftsman. garyowen
Off topic, but! Sterling Moss comes to my mind, a real racer. Not just driving in circles.Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
Ahhh yes of course.
I remember watching Sir Jackie driving F1 cars.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
I believe your truly a craftsman when you become an inferior tool available exclusively from Sears : ) CheersRuss.http://www.jensenfinefurniture.com
LOL! Loved it..
Interesting philosophical question....similarly, when (or how) does one attain the title of wine conisseur or gourmet chef or philanthropist?? They are all representative of a process or pursuit and not necessarily an endpoint or goal.
I agree Spiritrider... we can self proclaim.. be proclaimed by our peers or the public along the way without any of the above knowing what the final destination really was. So maybe we have already arrived or on the verge.. or will never arrive as the the peak of the mountain never really clearly reveals itseff..
But that jar of shellac down in the shop is getting ready to get revealed again as coffee break is over. The junkman returns to his natural habitat without knowing other than he is a junkman.. signed.. sealed.. delivered!
Regards...
Sarge..
Edited 4/9/2008 2:22 pm ET by SARGEgrinder47
Everybody makes mistakes. Even Masters!
A woodworker has to 'fix' it. A Bell maker remelts the bronze and starts over!
A Master is one thing. I think ALOT of us in here come REAL close but we don't admit it. However I define a Master as someone that finishes his work (with fixed mistakes) and nobody notices it!
been at woodworking about 30 years. the times i feel "craftsmanish" are those when im happy with the whole thing. what i mean is i feel best about my craft when my work has included learning a new skill or improving the old ones. joy in doing and a satisfied after-glow when done. learning from my continuing mistake making is a good thing also.
eef
Sarge,
That's a very interesting question you raise.
Where there are agreed standards and associated examinations, tests, peer-reviews or similar the answer is easy. The term "craftsman" is then an objectified and semi-legal term; no one may use it unless they have passed the "exam", without attracting censure. You can see that having such a definition (especially if the pass-standard is very high, as in Germany for example) will ensure that inept people who merely call themselves craftsman are not allowed to practice. If you hire one he will be competant.
But there is something to be said for a less-sructured arrangement for defining a craftsman. If there are no national qualifications, naughty men will give themselves the craftsman label, con dim folk into hiring them and then do a horrible job whilst milking oodles of money from the sucker. But at the other end of the spectrum there will be (often self-taught) folk who, unfettered by a formal craft education and qualification scheme, will rise to dizzy heights of competance because they love what they do and make adventurous attempts. You can see amazing stuff from such folk in the readers' work pages in every issue of FWW.
So, one answer is that anyone can call himself a craftsman in the US (or perhaps there are states that do have a formal qualification scheme)? Another answer is that one becomes a craftsman when a degree of competance in one's chosen domain is reached. This sort of begs your question, though - what is the scope of that domain and what defines competance.........
Well, all this just goes to show what an anarchic place the good ol' US of A is. Personally I feel that, despite the bad effects (eg self-declared experts, gurus, flim-flammers of every ilk) there are plenty of good ones. The freedom to "be the best" often actually produces the best.
Lataxe, self-declared cabinet-maker (Lataxe standard).
Lataxe
I haven't written to you in a long time but I have kept up with your replies to AC over the past weeks. It seems like you get on Knots quite often so I guess I'll get a word soon.
Back to "Craftsman" and the open definition. What prompted me to write to you was an experience I had with a woodworking friend of mine that I met in Germany(Hanau area) who came to the states for a few years and we spent a bunch of time together - most of it centered on wood - some on brewing beer. Beer is another post.
He was schooled in 2 places in Germany and he was indeed a talented guy. What impressed me about him was his concentration and seriousness. At the same time, I felt it was a limit for him. He did not like working beside me very much because I tend to be .. messy. He knew I was in the USAF and flew aircraft and just could not square with leaving tools around as I worked. I tried to explain to him that's my daytime job. When I'm woodworking its a little more feeling and touch type thing. He didn't go for that. He was like Frank Klaus on that note.
Jurgen could not picture going from building a wooden rowboat to a kentucky rifle. It just isn't what you do - to him or his other to craftsman friends. They didn't see curves as something you "fool" with until its just right. They wanted a jig and they would go to any length to make it work. They loved specialization- violin making or guitar building and only that. His dream was to become so specialized that people would take their shoes off when they came in his shop. I have not been back to Germany in a long time but he designs and builds staircases for a living and he is very successful and I think he's happy to boot. He's one kind of craftsman to me.
A craftsman in my view is an individual who works with pride. I know pride is not high on the list of user friendly terms but its at the core of my definition. I can see pride and I can feel it when I am working with another person. It comes thru in different ways: when I am watching someone like Garrett Hack working on a very small detail, its the same level of attention he puts into milling the stock in an earlier stage. He has a picture in his mind and he is on a journey. The craftsman has this mental image and his hands carry out that form at each stage with skill- not hit or miss swipes.
Here's a part you'll love: I tend to agree in part with something AC said about not really being aware of how you are working sometimes. I believe some craftsman- not all have this unconscious vocabulary of details and images in their mental dictionary that others either don't ever see or they are not impressed enough to remember it. Sometimes its way back there but they pull it up and combine it with something else and it becomes "their mark" in the building process. I have found myself recalling a volute I have seen somewhere that was different in someway but I remember that certain little feature. As I am drawing the pattern and editing the carvings around a patchbox, I can't tell you where I have seen that acanthus leaf or the little rococo design but its part of that craftsman vocabulary. I have heard other buildes talk about this process and I think there's something to it.
People always say to me as I am sketching a design element "Oh if I could only draw like you, I could do those carvings about like yours" its just that I can't draw. I am not a born artist. I have doodled with a piece of paper till I have figured out how the flow needs a little here and a little there. Practice. If you have the passion you will make it happen or come close.
Another trait of craftsman I admire is a kind "Jack of all trades" quality. They bring skills from other things they do to the bench. It sounds bizarre but I have a friend who's a helluva banjo picker and he is a great cabinetmaker. I am convinced he does mind blowing marquetry because he has seen some beautiful inlays on banjo necks after 40 years of bluegrass festivals and he just has to create that sweet stuff in his work. I have asked him about it and he laughs and tells me to go make more coffee. I might be out in the ozone but its kind of nice out here- I'm havin' fun.
I don't call others craftsman loosely. There are lots of different qualities that make a good craftsman but in my view its reserved for somebody who has something a little special.
On the school side. They have their place and I'd love to go to a bunch of them to get more skills. Training is a big plus if you want to get better at what you do. On the other hand, I don't rule out the guy with an unquenchable desire to be able to build things he's never built before. I know 2 kentucky rifle builders who come to mind that don't have certificates and degrees but everybody interested in the craft can't get enough advise from them. If you ever have a little time, search around and look at Hershel House and Wallace Gusler. They have videos featuring their craftsmanship. Neither one of them spent a day in a training school. You'd never know it.
Well I figure my box will fill up with replies for this marathon reply.
Hope things are going great across the pond and the tools are skimming across straight grain.
later
Great post.. I agree with most of it..
Craftsman, Master, or whatever is sort of like defining what Art is... Picture? I like Dalli.. Is that Art? I see many beautiful works posted in here.. And some not so good as others. Is that bad? Hardly... Music, I like Opera (some of it) AND ZZ-Tops! I think that if I like it they are at least Craftsmen or Masters (If I listen to more of it!)
If you do anything over time you will get better at it.. Even if all you do is BS others! Some of them are Masters too!
Edit:
I forgot.. I hear you about the gentleman from Germany. I have worked side-by-side with many professionals from Europe. They are VERY set in their ways! All have been at minimum Craftsman in there trades and some Masters by my standards.
However, I have repaired Mechanical and Electronic machines when they gave up on them. Does that make me a Craftsman or a Master? Another Hardly! I just think in a different world than they do. 'I sometimes got Lucky'! Hell, most of them spoke 4 languages and I'm still working on my English after 70 years!
Edited 4/9/2008 7:58 pm by WillGeorge
When you switch from glue, screw and nail ....... to joinery that don't fail.
Ha.
Good Gawd man,
You're a poet and didn't know it and your feet show it, cause they're longfellows!
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
<blushing>
Great question and discussion. By coincidence while browing at a bookstore at lunchtime today, I started reading a new book on exactly this subject. It's by the sociologist Richard Sennett and it's called The Craftsman. His interest is broader than your discussion—he wants to know how the notion of craftsmanship can be revived to make the kind of work most people do today more meaningful to them—and so he suggests a simple, broad definition: that a craftsman is someone for whom the quality of work is as important as any other aspect of it. He does look at the history of it and how craft has been handed down from master to apprentice, looking for what can be adapted today. I'm going to try to get the book from the library.
Sarge,
I think it's a term other's refer to you. It can be good and it can be bad. It's good, when someone you respect calls you it. It's bad, when someone who doesn't have a clue calls you it. So I guess when you respect your knowledge and skill then your a craftsman.
Len
Interesting queston. My day job is litigator. My weekend passion is woodworking. Several of the pieces in my office were built by me. When an unexperienced person compliments my work I am flatttered. If and when an experienced woodworker/cabinetmaker/contractor compliments my work, I will feel as though I have arrived; i.e a craftsman.
I am proud of both of my passions. Don't plan to die anytime soon but have thought about which of my passions I want listed first on my obit. Haven't got an answer for that yet. PMM
Sarge, I consider one who builds from a plan a mechanic and one who builds from a picture, sketch or an idea a craftsman.
Dick
I just read all the replies as I finally came up from the bunker and have to say I have throughly enjoyed everyone's opinion. I can't say that I dis-agree with anything that has been said as it is a broad subject that would be difficult to narrow down here in the U.S. as there are no guidelines that have to be meet as elsewhere.
I will use Boy Scouting as a parrallel. If I wanted to be an Eagle Scout.. the guide-lines are clearly set forth and have to be met with certification. If I want to be in the Order of the Arrow.. I have to be chosen as worhty by fellow Arrow's and then meet set guidelines.
But without guidel-lines as mentioned, I can hang a sign over my shop: J. Thompson *Craftsman and self proclaim. You can walk the walk and talk the talk.. but can you truly back that up? Perhaps here that is for others to decide as mentioned?
And I saw the work "Pride" mentioned. I like that word a lot as it reflects not being satisfied with just doing a job, but doing it the absolute best of your ability day in and day out. I just built my own wooden chest knobs a couple of days ago. The chest is free-lance of my own design based on "all" the chest I have seen in my life. I just choose the things I like and in-corporate them on a note-pad.
But.. ahhhh, we come to the knobs which have to be proportioned in width and height to corespond to the proportion of the larger bottom.. 1/2" smaller medium.. and another 1/2" top drawer depth. I could not decide in advance exactly what I wanted them to look like. So a lot of detail work and the third set finally made my cut.
The first and second made the trash can as learning scrap. I could have used them but they weren't "just right" as they did not go high enough on my self established "Pride" scale. Lost time.. but end sastisfaction gauranteed. No one else may care for them.. but I do and that is the final verdict.
Again.. great replies and I hope others give theirs as there is more... there is always more..
Sarge..
Sarge
I can't speak for European standards, as they have their own pecking order on who gets what title, but in my opinion, here in the US, the term "Craftsman" is a compliment that someone who views your work bestowes upon you. I don't believe an individual can call oneself a craftsman without sounding conceited. My highest praise received is when a customer calls me a fine craftsman. I then feel like my mission was accomplished.
And, obviously, you definately don't need to be a "professional" in order to be a craftsman. I've seen some work around my neck of the woods that people pay for, and I laugh to myself. Some people should be ashamed to cash the check.
Jeff
That's a clever way of approaching it Jeff and in the way you described it.. quite a compliment indeed. The word has a number of interpretations obviously from what we have heard here. Just depends on who's doing the interpretation.
And I totally agree about not having to be a professional as the amateur actually has the advantage of having surplus time to attend to detail as their are normally no dead-lines to meet. Unless.. the amateur doesn't know what details to attend too. But that might be true for a few professionals also. :>)
Regards...
Sarge..
I made a clock for a neighbor's daughter up north (she made sure my house was O.K. all winter long). When I gave it to her and I saw a tear coming down her cheek, afterward I thought, yea I'm a craftsman, by gosh. ?????????
James
When your father tells you that you are.
Absolutely not!!Excuse me, but there are usually far too many "issues" between father & son for me to depend on a father's judgement of his son. Some are too hard on their sons, some too easy.
I'm sorry this struck such a cord with you. I was happy to hear it fom mine. We have always had a great relationship.
Chipindustmaker,My reaction to your statement was in defense of all those young men whose fathers would never tell them they had achieved "craftsmanship", yet would be recognized as such by every other practitioner of their trade.
But it's amazing- you shined a light directly on a blind spot- that my own father never praised my work when I was apprenticed in his trade. He certainly has praised my work as a builder & woodworker. Until your post, I'd have said we've always gotten on well, but looking back, we've got on much better since I gave up his trade for a different one.Observant of you. Thanks.
yet would be recognized as such by every other practitioner of their trade.
Never knew my Father.. WWII thing.. My Mother was like that.. She would just say 'You can do better'!.. I got upset at times.. These days I realize she WANTED ME to do better! By the way.. I found out she still has all the 'stuff' I made that I thought was less than perfect by her standards!
EDIT:
NEVER judge a book by the cover.. May take along time to read to get the meaning.
Edited 4/21/2008 9:45 am by WillGeorge
Edited 4/21/2008 9:48 am by WillGeorge
A person that works with his hands is a laborer.A person that works with his hands and his head is a tradesman.A person that works with his hands, his head, and his heart is a craftsman.
Now that I like. Cuts right to the chase.
AZMO <!----><!----><!---->
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-------(*)/ (*) http://www.EarthArtLandscape.com
A person that works with his hands, his head, and his heart is a craftsman... HH
***
I like that one also... I'm hoping they lower the standards enough that one day I might get to be one. Just to say I was... :>)
Sarge..
You become a "craftsman" when more people ask for your advise than you ask and the majority of people consider your work something they can not create.
Sarge and All ,
My take on what a craftsman is :
Whether we are talking wood work or any other skill there are many levels of craftsmanship . Sarge , there are no tasks to categorize or guarantee craftsmanship , it can mean and be so many things to different people . It is just not Black and White like the Eagle Scouts rank requirements.
Professional / journeyman / tradesman and etc. are no measurement of skill levels as you know .
Mike Holden see's things similarly as my self . A willingness to share and teach is a common trait not always but quite often the case . Some are carvers and some are artists of other mediums while some only finish . When we become regarded by our peers competitors and clients and others as a master craftsman is when our reputation and life's work speak for them selves .
A pure and total dedication and commitment to detail and always doing things to the best of our ability , in each application are some of the stuff a craftsman is made of .
We are all mechanics some are better then others . Some craftsmen have skills far greater then that of a lowly box builder as in the great Pyramids and other great works .
Being able to take a concept to paper then the bench and bring to completion including finish is certainly a desirable level , but no guarantee .
A good old friend was born in Germany and apprenticed in Hamburg , this guy learned to be a painter , wall paperer , furniture / cabinet maker / builder / tile /brick/masonry work , and about any aspect of construction and interiors you could think of . We met about 26 years ago and I showed him my stuff , he appreciated my efforts and calls me "Meister Ticsheler " whatever that means .
dusty
Sarge,
I'm thinking along the same lines as Dusty. I think of a craftsman in the purest sense as someone who merely makes something. That means we are all craftsmen. So is your 6 year old nephew who knocks together a bird house with S4S pine and a handful of nails.
Now a skilled or master craftsman is different.
Chris @ flairwoodworks
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Just came upstairs as I close the shop down at mid-night daily. Very relaxing to read more of your thoughts. I have given some brief thought to this subject on quite a few occasions and it led to many of the things you guys are throwing out. And I find it interesting to get a little peek into someone's inner thoughts other than mine.
Quite a broad array of answers so far... an all seem to be headed in a direction that may lead somewhere. And they just make common sense as there are no guidelines established as mentioned and most likely will not be in the future.
Thanks to all for the contributions so far... hope to hear more thoughts!
Sarge..
Sarge,Yours is a provocative question because it seems to make each of us ask themselves privately "Am I a craftsman?". Even the most modest and unpretentious woodworker out there is secretly asking himself...I believe it's healthier to leave that as a question and not force an answer. The European system of qualifications has its place of course, but in a way it's skirting the real issue. If I am universally regarded as a craftsman, does it mean that I really am one? I'm much more interested by the inner meaning. As you said, there are different and equally legitimate ways to face the question. What strikes me now (in an hour it might be different) is the following: A man is a craftsman when the craft has become an integral part of WHO HE IS, and not something that HE DOES. And for me it's not a completely technical thing. No matter the level of accomplished wizardry, there's another dimension that is essential to BEING a craftsman. And a final thought - I'm not sure that it's a totally "yes" or "no" question like "Am I a father?" The answer can reasonably be "yes, sometimes". The more I can actually work in the shop while keeping this question in the back of my mind, the closer I get to becoming a craftsman. I think we should re-examine the issue once every 10 years or so...regards,
David Ring
http://www.touchwood.co.il/?id=1&lang=e
Chris,
Your reply is heading towards the core of the matter, in some way. When I read your post I thought: yes, "craftsman" allows a wide range of abilities, styles and subjects so the word needs to be qualified with other descriptive terms if one is looking for such a person to do this or that. This applies even in those places where the term means also "passed the exam" as one still wants to know what style and quality the particular craftsman is.
I generally think of craft as being essentially the doing-based knowledge that expresses itself as the current output from a tradition - a complex set of well tried and tested procedures along with a range of traditional forms. I suppose someone can invent a new craft relatively easily these days though (all those clever computing-based services and facilities out on the internet, for example). But a "real" craft still suggests overtones of a long accumulation and development of physical skills that may or may not be articulated as an associated knowledge in books or other media.
The term "Arts & Crafts" always seemed useful to me because it differentiated (but also associated) the two. A good craftsman may well be a bit of an artist as well, which may enhance his work and progress the tradition. But it seems arbitrary to suggest that a "real" craftsman must also be an artist as one of the necessary conditions for being a craftsman. I think, for instance, that the fellows that made all those copies of "the best" American period furniture are very much craftsmen, even if not a one of them has an artistic bone in his body. (No doubt some of them are artistic; perhaps it even helps with the crafting, despite them having a complete plan for the pieces).
Yet it might also be arbitrary to insist on a large and long tradition as part of the definition of "craft". Many modern furniture makers have taken only a little of the tradition - the joints and tool-tehniques perhaps - yet produce well-crafted pieces that are novel and unique.
So, as Sarge is no doubt well aware, the term is loose. It was a very good idea to ask that clever question, which has certainly got us all thinking about what we do and the qualities of it.
On the other hand, why bother with any labels? If someone likes the piece I made for them and it serves their need, what does it matter whether I label myself (or someone else does) as a craftsman? I can understand the "pride" attribute but that is a highly subjective feeling. One who is little skilled can still take pride in producing a piece even if it would be thought "poor" by someone long in that craft
I suppose the definition of craftsman might matter in the commercial world - but given it's unavoidably a loose definition, it still comes down to caveat emptor. Even if everyone agreed that a certain maker of period furniture is a craftsman, I would be most disappointed were I to buy a piece on the assumption that it would meet certain basic requirements of precision in the joinery, only to find it is deliberately bodged in the name of some strange (but no doubt legitimate, in some circles) definition of craftsmanship. By my personal definition (an admittedly inchoate one) bad-joinery is a minus point in deciding if someone is a craftsman.
Lataxe
I've been reading a really interesting book called "Arts & Crafts Furniture - From Classic To Conttemporary" by Kevin P Rodel and Jonathan Binzen. It discusses how the movement started out revolting against machines and emphasized the skilled worker. Somehow, that turned around and a lot of furniture (Mission-style) was designed to be easily mass produced by machines.Chris @ flairwoodworks
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
I became a "craftsman" in the seventh grade when I made my first project in shop class. It was a simple set of shelves. Started with rough lumber. Dadoes for each shelf. Spray on finish, steelwool between coats. These shelves are in my son's room full of DVD and games.
Sarge,
There's a movie that came out in about 1975 or so, called "Hearts of the West." It's about a farm boy named Lewis Tater (played by Jeff Bridges) who travels out west to become a writer.
Tater eventually meets up with a real Hollywood scriptwriter, played by Andy Griffith, and he asks him for advice. Griffith admonishes him for calling himself a writer, and says, "Son, you're not a writer until someone else calls you a writer."
So, that's my .02 on this issue.
Zolton
If you see a possum running around in here, kill it. It's not a pet. - Jackie Moon
Good morning all and nice to see some more responses. It's not a burning question that I feel has to be answered.. as has been pointed out from the beginning, I'm not sure it can be frankly? Just a thought I have occasionally while taking a break and sipping coffee in the shop. I was curious to know if anyone else had ever had the similar thought?
I am glad I ask the question at this point as the replies have all kept my interest arroused. I actually look forward to reading another reply as each has somewhat of a new twist as each of us has something in common but approach it in various ways.
Multi made a good point about tools as it seems collecting them is given more priority than actually using them as I scan several forums periodically. I have an assorted mix with none that would be considered prestige. Well.. unless you consider my Irwin 19 T pull stroke dove-tail saw or my Marples "blue-beaters" I purchased in 1974 and chop DT waste out with "prestige". Probably not.. huh?
The other day I discovered I needed a 5/8" core bit to rout some drawer knobs. I don't have one and don't intend too.. Had to think for a moment but... the 5/8" Forstner bit got the call and we dump the router method and do it with a DP. You always can find a way regardless of what tools you have is a lesson learned early.
Headed to the shop as it looks like I'm in for a real "shellacing" for several days. Hope to see more replies when coffee is served upstairs where civilization still exist.. away from the solitude of working alone. The more I think about this... the more I am steered into thinking that my end result or classifiction is not really more important than who I have become getting to the end result.
Zolton quoted a good line by Andy Griffin in the movie mentioned.. "Son, you're not a writer until someone else calls you a writer." That holes a lot of truth IMO. My wife watchs the "American Idol" and "Dancing with the Stars" show on TV. When you get a compliment from Simon on American Idol or the staunch "English" chap that sits in the center of the judges on "Danciing with the Stars"... you know you have arrived.
So... if I were to ever get complimented by "The Boss" on a piece of work... I know that I have made it all the way to the podium. You have to love a man that enjoys southern bar-be-que to the point he can critique it! ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
Sarge..
"Son, you're not a writer until someone else calls you a writer."
What if some guy called me a SOB?
Will,
I'm going to have to think up a response to that...
Aw heck. I give up.
Reminds me of a story a guy from North Carolina told me. He was serving jury duty and two lawyers were going at it over the case at hand. One said to the other, "When you get home tonight, I hope your mother runs out from under the porch and nips you on the ankle!"
Kind of a genteel Southern way of calling someone an SOB I guess. They have their ways..
Zolton
If you see a possum running around in here, kill it. It's not a pet. - Jackie Moon
Sarge, to me it is when you get to the point you can create your vision, with out changing the vision in the middle to take advantage of the, "design opportunities", your poor initial design has caused.
It is a matter of gaining the experience to proceed from initial idea to final piece, and then execute the design how you thought it out.
I'm an Engineer in my day job. Two years ago, I did an abrupt change in the focus of what I do, from land development and major construction, to fish passage, screening, and stream/habitat restoration. When I first started doing the fish stuff it would take me three or four weeks to grind out a design, (grind being the operative word). Every thing was new, and I had to think through and examine every step of what I was doing. And, frankly if it hadn't been for the skill of the craftsmen who were executing what I put on paper many of them wouldn't have worked well. After two years I am finally starting to master what I am doing. I can do a design in a matter of three or four days now. I can finally see what the final project needs to look like as soon as I walk onto the site for the initial survey. All that is left is to put the thought on paper.
Some day I hope to get there with my woodworking, and be able to see the finished piece. and just design and execute it the way I see it. That is when I will consider my self to have become a "Craftsman". For now I can spend days designing the piece, and still end up with those pesky "design opportunities".
Some day I hope to get there with my woodworking, and be able to see the finished piece. and just design and execute it the way I see it. That is when I will consider my self to have become a "Craftsman". For now I can spend days designing the piece, and still end up with those pesky "design opportunities".... Jigs
That's and interesting statement, Jigs... Since 1972 I have never used a plan as on the occasions I looked at one, my head was spinning in circles. Too much fine print for me and I'm not an engineer other than "shade-tree".
I just look at several of what I'm going for (chest.. bed.. table.. etc.) and then use any concept I liked from one.. two or all an add anything I decide on. It just goes onto a notepad and then I give it dimensions. Then the cut list. I build simple and functional designs so the method is not overly elaborate or does it need to be.
I think I might look for the book that Nboucher mentioned as the threads on American Furniture sort of kindled a spark. And everyone's thought here have been of great interest to me. Beats left-right tilt or you better get your F-tool now as the price is going up. ha.. ha.. ha.. ha.. ha..
Regards...
Sarge..
The doing the plans is something my father, (also an engineer) drilled into me. Which was strange to me at the time, as he rarely seemed to use them.
They seem to be less confusing when they are ones I have drawn, and I tend to redraw and modify anyone else's I start with to get them clear in my mind.
I can appreciate well designed and details plans, Jigs... if I were building a bridge or sky-scraper. But.. to me a piece of furniture is a simple box in most cases that has been added too or taken away from to form a functional purpose. I don't like to blend complicate to simple as simple is a stand alone word to me.
As I heard Ray Pine Quote in another thread concerning why the old craftsman used a particular method... "Perhaps that's just the way they had always done it".. That pretty much sums up my approach to using someone else's detailed plan. I don't as being self taught... just the way I have always done it.. :>)
Regards...
Sarge..
Sarge, I hear what you are saying. For now I still need the detailed design to visualize complex joints, and minimize the mistakes. I draw/design quite a bit at work, and for me it is fairly easy to put things into AutoCadd and play with options and modify the design before I put it to paper and try to build it.
My Dad was an engineer, who started as an aircraft draftsman. He could draw beautiful drawings. But his skill and knowledge had progressed to the point that he rarely drew anything out, and just built things. I don't know that finished product always matched the image that he started with. But, they always went together well and the joints were strong, true, and correct for the application.
I think I will have arrived at the Craftsman phase, when I no longer need to do detailed designs on paper, in order for them to come out the way I envision them.
I started looking at your fascinating discussion because i am currently reading Sennetts book 'Craftsman'. I am about 1/3 of the way through and cant stop telling people about the ideas he is discussing. He uses examples from music, medicine, programming and EVEN woodwork to explore the ideas related to the word craftsman. He gets the grey matter going in just about every paragraph and produces quotable quotes on every page. I advise anyone who takes their, job/hobby seriously to read this book. The last time I read a book that made me think this much was Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance. You may want to use that as a reason to ignore everything i have said!the last 2/3 could be rubbish i'll let you know coz it aint cheap. £25 over here.
I had pretty much made up my mind to get the book as it has been mentioned earlier as excellent. Nothing like a second opinion and both on the same page. So...
I have been through the Zen thing in the early 70's. I pulled maintenance on my old dirt bikes in the same era, but haven't read the book. But I have read a few that might not get approval by the masses so... No.... I don't think those are that unusual.
BTW.. I have also stayed at Motel 6 and been in more Waffle House's than I care to remember before I had to go on a cholesterol diet. :>)
Regards...
Sarge..
I’m always forgetting to add that “extra inch” with things I build. I’ve gotten in the habit of not only measuring twice, but also sleeping on it for a day or two before I make a critical cut.
I used to measure twice WD1234.. but in the last 6-7 years I measure 3 times as I seem to always have several things cooking at the same time. That can be distracting without the utmost concentration. The measuring twice thing has saved me on many occasions I would venture to say that would be true for most?
Regards...
Sarge..
help!i need to automate a group of sliding doors over a mantle that will hide a 60 inch flat screen.this is a green and green craftsman style and i cant find hardware anywhere.i'm ready to rig something out of the granger cat. if i could,anyone know how?
regards ,brian
Just caught your post... you might want to re-post and choose All to direct to. By posting to me.. it may or may not be seen by All. Or another option would be to start a new thread under General Discussion that everyone on the forum would view.
Sorry.. I know nothing of sliding doors and automated makes that even less. :>) As far as hardware goes... I generally build my own with the exception of bed attachments and hinges. You might do a Google search on that one also.
Good luck...
Sarge..
Edited 4/10/2008 12:50 am ET by SARGEgrinder47
Well Sarge you started a good one. My day job is Landscape design and construction. It involves so many elements these days, that my formal training never considered. 32 years of work, some magazines in town have begun to notice my work. My work is being published and people will see what I build. They have had very nice comments for my projects. So was I a craftsman before or have I become one now that I am recognized? While I think my work is good, I always see room for improvement and I don't feel comfortable using that label in describing myself. I use that word to describe others.
I see a craftsman not as someone who builds something without mistakes or without effort, or without doubts. A craftsman is first and foremost passionate about his work. It drives him to build the best he can. He is unwilling to settle for OK, in the middle of the project he may visualize another option, and is willing to change. He never stops looking at the details, checking them and rechecking them. He is looking for new ideas and solutions. If he makes a mistake he throws it out, and rebuilds to get it right. He sweats about details, and may not be sure it will look just right until he is finished. When he is finished he critiques his work and while he may be satisfied he also sees the flaws and will have a case of "I would of, should of". To the rest of us he makes it look easy and his work is perfect. But how many prototypes, how many sketches, and how many redesigns did it take?
AZMO
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AZMO,
I would of, should of
Reminds me of one of my wifes favorite espressions to our son, "Coulda woulda, shoulda".
Craftsman: Kind of a thought process if you will? Not necessarily restricted to woodworking.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,
Absolutely a thought process...... that never stops. While Craftsman does evoke a strong wood working connection, it is applicable to any design build application.
Unfortunately proctologists will never be Craftsman....
AZMO
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Edited 4/10/2008 10:14 am by AZMO
Oh well, someone has to bring up the rear.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
I would of.. I should of... brilliant!
I have never built the same piece twice.. but every one I have built since 1972 gets that reply from me. I love over-kill on joints. A chest that is just about ready has M&T's on the face and back frame. The wooden drawer slides are secured with dado's.. saddles (bridle).. and the center runner underneath is dovetailed. The chest will not fall apart any time during my course of stay on planet earth.
But... regardless of how well done, just wait till I apply finish as I'm doing at this very moment. At that point.. what could have been an excellent piece would immediately get "top seed" visually by just showing up a "demolition derby".. ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
So.. do I consider myself a craftsman? No.. just a journeyman and most definitely not a master craftsman. I have never done inlay in 36 years and just 7 years ago built in the round as I did a 100' custom showroom counter for the company I worked for.
I have just begun to get the hang of finish (after all these years) as most pieces in the past would have been the cause of me being sentenced to "hang" by a jury of 12. But I just refuse to lose and have escaped the hangmans noose so far. :>)
Regards...
Sarge..
I don't know Sarge..some titles come easier....For 40 years you invest in your profession, schooling, internship, conferences and you apply those skills effectively...do they say ah! BG the Professional? nope....For 30 years you raise your family, taking every dollar and spending it for their welfare, food, clothes, education, travel, etc....do they say ah! BG the Family Man? nope....But you sleep with one lousy sheep....ha, ha
And you better sleep with just one according to your wife. Don't be trying to steal any links from Slainte's little black book. :>)
Regards...
Sarge..
AZMO ,
Well said , so were you a CM before or have you become one now you are recognized ? Being recognized really is nice , but imo does not elevate our level of skill and abilities , we do that .
Checking and re checking and sweating about details trying new solutions and new ideas while constantly honing our skill level and expertise or proficentcy is how we are . I think these obsessive habits and patterns are what drives our continual performance and higher levels of work .
I was trimming out a kitchen for a Orthopedic surgeon about 12 years ago and he was watching me put a basic little crown molding around the cabinets and he saw me trim a few pieces over and over until they fit just right . Doc said sheesh , you must be a miserable perfectionist . Some may call it doing the best we can .
A Doctor or Landscaper or or Welder , Painter Plasterer , Tile , Mason ,for that matter can be a craftsman as well as any other field one has expertise in .
You would want your Proctologist to be a craftsman , wouldn't you ?
regards dusty
Dusty,
Here is to be a miserable perfectionist!! Tip one up for that.
A while back I crashed my Bicycle, broke my femur and hip. My orthopedic surgeon put titanium rods inside the bone and made a permanent fix. I would argue that he is a craftsman. He could visualize the breaks, design the procedure to place the rods together, and drive the screws that hold it in place. Design and Build. (Shame on your ortopedic surgeon for not being a miserable perfectionist.)
Now the proctolgist is someone I really don't want making designs on my colon. Skilled operator with a scope, OK. Skilled at removing polyps, OK. Removing a section of bowel and reconnecting them is closer. But it just doesn't seem to meet my definition of design/build. All being said, I don't want a hacker messing around.
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At what point are you a "Craftsman"
I took my Grand babies to the park {mom said it was to cold to do it}.. As far as I know they never told on me!
You're "crafty" all right.. there has been no doubt left on the table on that one! ... :>)
Sarge..
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