Q. What is the diference between open assembly time and total assembly time as mentioned in the spec. info on the titebond website?
I have my first large dovetail glue up to do. It is small by FWW standards a small decorative chest. However I am concerned about the open time for the glue up.
I was looking on the titebond website contemplating using titebond III, it is advertised as having a longer open time.
I also was thinking about trying some plastic resin glue, like David Marks uses.
I also read the thread about the DT drawer glue ups where a tip was given to refrigerate yellow glue.
Thoughts and advice welcome.
Webby
Replies
Plastic resin and liquid hide glue have long open times. This allows you plenty of time to butter up all joints. Yellow glues should be clamped within 10 minutes. When gluing end graon with yellow, first lightly spread the glue on the end grain and let it dry. Sand very lightly and reapply for final glue up. Strength will be greatly increased. The initial first coat is called "sizing." This sizing coat can be slightly thinned yellow glue. I usually don't thin it, I just apply a very thin coat.
Resorcinal (boat builders glue) also has a long open time but will leave a burgandy glue line on lgiht woods.
Webby
Here's what I've done with my dovetail glue ups: first and foremost, do a trial run and test fit everything in the order it all goes together. I apply glue to the sides of the pins only--glue on all surfaces just makes a mess and doesn't add significantly to the strength of the joint. Assemble the joints in order, check the box for square; get it square by applying hand force at opposing corners as needed, and if your joints fit well, there is no need for clamps--set it on your bench or level surface and let it cure. Another good tip is to just get the joints started together, just barely in, and then apply glue, then push them all the way home. Titebond 3 has a nice open time--I used it recently on a 4' x30" box joint cabinet glue up, and I had plenty of time to drive the joints together and get it square. If you need a second set of hands to keep from panicking, it's worth the effort. Hope that helps. Tom
Thanks for the information guys.Webby
I just did 50 DT's about two days ago. Like ctsjr I only apply glue to the pins and I use a glue syringe with a needle. Easier to control in a DT or box joint. Spread with a 1/4" acid brush on one side then apply a dab to the other and spread.
As mentioned have all clamps in the ready mode and make sure you have a dry fit before the fact. I use Tite-bond III as it allows plenty of time if the fore-mentioned has been done. Keep a steady pace without draggin' your feet or rushing. In other words don't panic which you shouldn't have to if you did prepared properly.
Sarge..
I don't know the spec's difference, but my gut tells me the first is time till it bites and the second is total time to dry. I use titebond extend glue and have had no issues. I did a large cedar chest with the upper box being dovetailed (about 12" on each corner). The box was 1" thick so I was concerned about getting it together in time. It was the largest dovetail assembly I've done. I got all 4 sides done and together with no issues. Temp and humidity will play some factor in how long it is open before it sets. I'm working on a hutch right now and had a complicated glue up and had to hump it to get it done due to the temp in the shop. The key is dry run and have every thing ready and once you start no interruptions. I use the extend glue for any complicated glue up. I'm not a pro but a hobbyist, but have had any glue joint fail. Good luck.
If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it.
And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
Thanks again everyone. I glued it up this morn' used the idea in the dovetail drawer thread about using a small 1/2 inch wide spatula to spread the glue, I just barely started the dovetails then glued, it worked well. I used the Titebond III which I have used before and had no problems.
I only glued the pins and everything went fine. This is a small presentation type chest 12 iinches by eight.
Good idea about the glue srynge.Webby
I only discovered the syringes at P'tree WW about 8 months ago. But... what a difference they make to me in small joints.. corners and the like. They save me quite a bit of clean up and I'm glad I stumbled across them and decided to gamble a try on one. I keep several on-hand but wash out the one I'm using with hot water after use. About $1.99 a pop I believe.
Glad you had sucesss with the attempt.
Sarge..
What are some brand names and sources for the plastic resin glue? I work in Phoenix and even with A/C it's about 95 in the garage/shop I work in. Tite-bond II dries almost out of the bottle and III isn't too much better. How much longer is the open time for Extend? Thanks for any info
The working time for the titebond extended is not that much more noticeable. Go with the liquid hide glue or DAP plastic resign.Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
According to Titebond's website you get an extra 5 minutes open time with the TBII Extend.
II 5 min @ 70FIII 10 min @ 70F II Extend 15 min @ 70F
I've used the Urac glue made by this place with good results on bent laminations. I cant find info on their site on the open time but I think it was around 20 minutes but can be adjusted a bit for different ambient temps by the amount of hardener mixed in. They do include a several page instruction guide with the glue but dont seem to have it available online. You do need something like a small diet scale to mix the resin and hardener though.
http://nelsonpaint.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=UA
If you build it he will come.
Dap makes plastic resin glue. It is sold in powder forma and you mix what you need. Working time is about 15 to 20 minutes I think, however this is dependent on temperature and humidity.
I have never used it I was just reading the container in the store.Webby
When I lived in Vegas, (and was working on my patio), I used Gorilla urethane glue all summer, because it was the only glue I found that actually had any open time in the dry heat.
Any thing that had water in it was surface dry as fast as I could put it on.
I tired epoxies, they heat accelerated the set time to less than a quarter of what the label said it would take.
Since the urethanes need water to react, (and there isn't much available), they have a very long open time. But you have to be sure to clamp things well or the foaming of the urethane leaves a weak joint.
WebbyGood going. For me, the dry fit is critical, as is the labeling of the joints and being organized. I was recently gluing up a large finger jointed box for a tool cabinet. It was late afternoon, and I was tired when I did the test fit. Everything fit nicely, and I went into the house to get the glue (my shop is a garage and I store the glue in the house). Just that short pause messed me up and I didn't have the joints labeled, and I wound up gluing the wrong joint together. Thank goodness the TBIII has a longer open time. I banged and walloped that joint together and was a bit panicked till it came together. Working tired is not just a hazard around power tools! Glad it went well for you. Tom"Notice that at no time do my fingers leave my hand"
Thanks. Yeah I don't work tired if I can prevent it. I had dry fit several times because I am new to dovetailing boxes. First one. I had my orientation down and started the joints becuase I was afraid the glue would expand them.
Everything went pretty smooth and I built a base for the box today. My pics are lousy but I will post one when I get it done. It is a ashaker influenced mini chest. It is small mainly decorative and good for whatever it will hold. I am using some old pine paneling I salvaged. I don't have a planer so it is 3/4 thick.Webby
I believe that open assembly time is the amount of time that the glue can stay exposed to the air after you've applied it. Total assembly time is the amount of time the joint can still be wiggled around without sacrficing joint strength.
So, for example, if the open assembly time is 10 min, and the total assembly time is 25 min, you have 10 min after glue application during which you have to put the joint together, and then another 15 min during which you have to ensure that the pieces are in their final alignment.
-Steve
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