I am building a benchtop out of simple 2×4 material. I can buy the 2x4s straight and flat from Home Depot, but based on experience I would expect them to twist pretty badly if I just leave them lying around individually. My question is, if I glue them together as soon as I get them home (making the benchtop 3 1/2″ thick), will the whole top deform as badly, or will the individual boards tend to offset one another so the warping is minimized? I’m sure the assembly won’t dry perfectlly flat, but a relatively small amount of deflection wouldn’t concern me because (i) I am intending to flatten it anyway, either by planing it or taking it to someone with a big surface sander; and (ii) as we all know, it isn’t particularly important that a benchtop be flat (for anyone who understands what I am referring to, you’ve been hanging out here too long!).
Any thoughts?
Replies
Based on my limited experience, I believe you will get less overall twist/warp if you glue up the 2x4s as soon as you get them home. Assuming that you are intending to use ordinary construction 2x4s (not kiln dried) the resulting thick slab will take some considerable time to reach an equilibrium moisture content. If the lumber is kiln dried, there should not be much twist/warp even in the individual pieces.
Dick Baker
Sunnyvale, CA
You can't tell in advance which pieces will warp and which direction they would go. So how you could you arrange them to minimize warp? I would wait until they are at equilibrium in their final location and then I would glue them up. Otherwise they will tear themselves apart if they don't warp first.
I suggest another alternative. Buy lots of 2X4s and air dry them. Perhaps 25 to 35% will twist or be unusable--cut them in shorter lengths for other projects. The remainder should be OK for glue-up.
BJ
Thank you for your responses.
Be sure to buy the 2x4's that have the "KD" stamp on them. The "KD" stamp means they are kiln dried to the standard established for construction lumber or about 12%. If there is a number after the "KD" stamp, then that is the moisture content they were dried to.
Don't just use the standard 2x4's. They are only air dried to about 19-20% and will take 4 months or more to acclimate and dry to about 12%.
If you buy the "KD" lumber and you select straight stock, you should be OK if you get it into your shop and let it acclimate for a couple of weeks.
I made my bench top out of laminated 2x4's and I have not had any problems. If you do the same, it will not be 3-1/2" thick because you will have to cut off the rounded edges. It is around 3-1/8" after you do that and run the top through a wide belt sander to flaten it like I did. Be sure you have about three guys to help you, it can be heavy. The best thing about a softwood top is that you can nail into it.
Rob,
I have been thinking about a softwood benchtop but was worried about the bench dog holes deforming quickly. In your experience, is this a problem?
Thanks,
Steve
Steve,
I have had a softwood (douglas fir) bench for about 12 years. For bench dogs I use 3/4" dowels in drilled holes, inclined about 4 degrees from vertical. The portion of the top that has the dog holes is about 4 3/4" thick. I have had minimal distortion of the dog holes in all that time.
Dick Baker
Sunnyvale, CA
I built my workbench out of 2x4 pine an have not had any problems. It has remained flat, no problem with bench dog oles deforming and it was cheap as it was built out of leftover yellow pine from the construction of our house. There is a web sight that has plans for a bench out of pine http://www.terraclavis.com/bws/beginners.htm. Good Luck
That is exactly the bench I am building, except I'm not including a tool tray. Instead, I'm going to put a shelf just under the benchtop for tools, plus a few drawers. Also, my top is going to be about 84" long.
I bought the kiln-dried 2x4s yesterday and immediately clamped them together dry. Today I'm going to start biscuiting them together (for stability in the glue-up process), although the Super Bowl is going to interfere somewhat.
I bought two 9" Record vises from Amazon. Very good price and free shipping. They're massive.
The amazing thing is how heavy the darn thing is going to be.
I'm totally cynical about this concept of stable, kiln-dried lumber. I always buy kiln-dried 2x4s at Home Depot and you should see how much they twist and bend! Like pretzels!
Thanks again to everybody for the advice.
Mark, can you clamp them and leave them in clamps for the time in which they would warp? You don't have to glue them at this stage. Constraining their movement will encourage them to take the shape you want them to have finally. Later you can unclamp them and start with glue. This approach is used with steam-bending sometimes - give the boards the shape in one step, then when they have that shape glue them later in a separate step.
Cheers,
Chris
PS, I am using 2x8 SPF laid flat for a benchtop. Dogholes are 7/8" dia and dogs are tapered to jam in place.
Edited 1/26/2003 9:31:57 AM ET by WATEREN
Mark,
It's obviously too late to consider this for your benchtop, but I'll post anyway.
I built a bench a couple of years back from a mag article using #2 SYP. The author suggested buying 2 x 10's and 12's and ripping the vertical grain edges off of the wide boards using that vertical grain material for the top and the flat sawn middle of the boards for the structure underneath. This worked beautifully. But then I used the boards laid flat rather than on edge as it sounds like you're using them. Another advantage of the ripping process - the vertical grain outer edges of the wider boards are virtually knot free.
Using this process, I ended up with a vertical grain, clear pine bench top for a #2 pine price.
jdg
That sounds like a good idea. I'll tell you, the wood you buy at the home centers, and probably anywhere else, is terrible.
This is exactly what I'm doing. As soon as I brought the boards home I clamped them up. I'm gluing them up with biscuits three boards at a time, then immediately putting them back in the clamps. My plan is to have three sections with six 2x4s in each, 9" accross. I can then use my DeWalt 12 1/2" planer to put them in pretty good shape before joining the three pieces together. If they are out of kilter at that point I can clean them up with either a handplane or, if they're out of kilter by a lot, taking them someplace with a wide belt sander. At least, that the theory.
I was planning to attach them to the base use square metal brackets. Now I'm thinking that the top will want to move a bit with changes in humidity, so I should do something more sophisticated. Not sure what yet.
>> I'm thinking that the top will want to move a bit with changes in humidity, so I should do something more sophisticated. Not sure what yet.
Heres a thought:
You'll surely get a better table if you allow for movement.
You may want to use 1/4" or 5/16" lag bolts from underneath in oversize holes. Put a thick horizontal support underneath your table top with the grain direction opposite the table top grain. Drill a hole vertically through the support just large enough for the shaft of a lag screw. Then drill the top half or 2/3 or so of this hole oversize to allow the shaft of the lag screw to bend/move for expansion and contraction of the table top.
Two layers of wax paper between the support and the table top will assure a good slip and you can crank down on the lag screws.
Woodbin has a wood shrinkage calculator so you can determine the movement to anticipate and the necessary size of the oversize part of the hole.
Note about pine workbench top:
On my pine table, in the heavy usage areas, I have a little roughness developing where the grain of the soft spring wood is compressing from "high traffic" and the harder summer wood resists compression creating sorta a raised summer wood effect. It's not real bad, but you should expect this with a soft wood workbench top.
jdg
Mark,
I would square them up and remove the rounded edges before biscuiting and gluing. Also, be careful of grain direction for future planing.
I put sled feet on my base and similar on the top of the legs to support the top. I cut slots in the top supports so the wood could move..
Sorry you've already started on your project - 2x's from big box stores are all spf (spruce/pine/fir), are soft and as you have seen, not stable. A better option is to purchase flooring from one of the discounters poping up all over the place (one advertises in Fine Homebuilding). You can get a hardwood like oak that is much more stable than spf. You end up with a very solid bench that can really take hammering, etc. while; spf will easily dent and you'll be sanding your top periodically if you do any heavy work on it. The downside is you have many more laminates to glue-up (although that increases the strength value of the bench) and you have to remove the tongue/groove from the boards. Still you can end up with a soild hardwood bench for minimal investment (flooring places have specials with very competitive prices).
Thanks for your input. The guy who designed this bench says right up front it will be your first woodworking bench, not your last. Every day that goes by makes be realize the wisdom of that prediction. Until now, my "bench" has been a few 2x8s bolted to a frame, which I inherited from the previous owner of my previous house. I can already tell this this bench is going to be hugely better than that, and that the next bench I build will be hugely better than this one. The flooring idea is an excellent one.
One more option is to go to your local lumberyard (not Home Depot ) and check out the stair stock material. It is 2x12 pine and I would think that the moisture content would be low. Also cutting around the knots you could get some pretty clear lumber.
Good Luck Petey
Thanks.
My bench was made a couple of years ago from 2X8's ripped to 2X4 that gave me the square ripped edge up. A little jointer work smoothed it up and it has been fairly solid for my DIY type work. Not a showpiece but almost indestructible with 4X4 legs and 2X8 rails.
Lefty - Lurker without an attitude or a clue
Lefty,
This is exactly my idea on building a bench. I was going to buy 2X8s and rip them to 2X4 and glue on edge. Do you find the wood to be too soft? This is the only complaint that I am hearing out there. Do you have a picture that you can post of your bench? I was also thinking of adding a tail vise and another vise on the left front side. I would also like the dimensions of your bench. It sounds like this is exactly what I'm looking to build. Inexpensive, but solid.. Anything more you can tell me on your bench would be appreciated. You can also email me directly at [email protected]. Thanks... Also, did you just use glue on edge to keep the 2X4s together?
Regards,
Buzzsaw
Buzzsaw,
I made a bench exactly like what you described. It is very sturdy and meets all my needs. I based it on a design I saw in Popular Woodworking. I would probably agree that the pine is a little soft for the top, but for everyday general use it works fine for me. I simply glued up the 2X4 into 12 inch sections then biscuit jointed the 4 sections together. I also made a second bench out of ash, that I made for a friend. That bench was perfect! I guess the next one will be for me again!
-Bob
Bob,
I'm a little confused. You said that "I simply glued up the 2X4 into 12 inch sections then biscuit jointed the 4 sections together". Unless I read this incorrectly your bench is 4' wide? Maybe you meant that you biscuit joined the 2 sections together. I was thinking of gluing all pieces together to make up a 6' X 2' bench top. Do you have pictures that you can post?
Also, I'm a little concerned about ripping 6' long 2X8s. Did you have another person help you to grab the outfeed? I haven't ripped wood this long before so any tips would be appreciated.
Also, any info on the vises you have would be helpful. Is a tail vise used that often? I was thinking of just installing a shoulder vise. And are your bench dog holes circular or rectangular? Thanks in advance...
Regards,
Buzzsaw
Buzz
If you don't have an extention on the back of your TS, go to HD and get one of the flip-top stands. They have four point feet, a wide friction surface and they are very sturdy. I can rip 16' stock all day long single-handedly with a little help from 3 of them behind my saw along with my rear extention.
BTW, glue your 6' long 2 x 4's face to face. Do about 4 at a time (6" width) as trying to work with that much glue on 24" wide is not an easy task. Now you have four 6" wide sections. Set up your clamps (and have plenty of them to apply even pressure) and then glue the four 6" sections together. Have someone to help if you can and rehearse dry. Might consider Titebond Extend glue to give you a few extra minutes.
Pine is fine. If it dents, slap some wood filler in it ocassionally and sand it out. Work-benchs and work-trucks are well, made to work. They get dings, dents and scratches. They also "get the job done" with dings, dents and scratches and that's the bottom line.
Build it, it will WORK!! he.. he...
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Actually Sarge,
I built a folding outfeed extension table for my TS. It was one of my first woodworking projects. It works like a champ. What you suggest as far as gluing was along the lines of what I was going to do. No biscuits for me...It is strange that you posted because I was planning on emulating your bench base as I downloaded the pictures that you posted in one thread. Can you give me the dimensions of your bench top and possibly the dimensions of the pieces of your base. It looks awesome and It looks very sturdy. I plan on doing a lot of hand planing so I need something strong. Can you also talk a bit about tail vises vs shoulder vises. Is a tail vise something that I would probably use a lot? How about you? Any suggestions on something I should treat the table top with after I am done? Sorry for all the questions. Thanks for your post.Regards,
Buzzsaw
Buzz
I've got to go get a tag before part-time work. Will post tonite b'tween 9 PM and 11PM with answers to your questions if not already answered by then.
Keep in mind that my base width was determined after I chose to have a 2 1/2" over-hang on the sides. So your top width will determine your base width depending on if you desire over-hang or straight drop-off, etc. Once you choose the top size you want, everything co-relates to those dimensions.
Regards...
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
That is cool. I look forward to your response...Regards,
Buzzsaw
Buzz
Sorry, running a tad behind. Had to fab some head-liner bows for a 30's street rod for a project car at work.
My top is 25" wide, therefore the outside measurement of the legs are 20". I have 2 1/2" over-hang on each side. Just simple math. On the end that has the twin screw vise I only have 3" over-hang. The width of the end vise faces (2" each face for a total of 4") gives me a total of 7" over-hang on that end. The other end has a 10" over-hang (space for a German hardware front vise). The total lenght of the bench is 76" so with the 17" end over-hang that means the stretchers on the base are 76" - 17" or 59". The M&T's are through. This is kind of a matter of simple math once you put the basic dimentions on paper. Just think it through with a clear mind.
Vises: I have a front vise and a twin screw end vise. If I could only have one vise the twin screw would be the choice. I can do anything with it you can do with a front and a lot more. Keep in mind I have about 17" open between the screws for larger panel or wide stock.
Now, keeping in mind that you are on a budget, I would purchase German hardware at about $36 and build the vise faces. This is the economical route and the German HW is very sturdy. You could add a end vise latter if you wish. Let me add that a tail vise is different from an end vise. A tail vise has one screw. Go to your Work-Bench Book and look carefully at the difference. I would rate a front vise as more versatile than a tail and the twin screw as more versatile than either of those. So this is a matter of choice and your style. Tom from Douglasville. GA. has a tail vise he uses more than a front. Just his preference and style and he knows what best fits his needs. You need to determine what fits yours.
Keep in mind that vises, bottom shelves, cabinets or drawers can be added at your convenience. The main thing is too get a solid design working and get the main-frame (the bench itself) up and running. Options are then just that, options.
Regards...
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Thank You Sarge,
That is very helpful. What Bench book do you recommend as I haven't purchased one yet.. Thanks..Regards,
Buzzsaw
The Workbench Book by Scott Landis is very good and sarge is right, I do prfer to use the tail vise. Mine is setup such that it has several clamping possibilities. I use it 90% of the time. Tom
Douglasville, GA
Thanks Tom. Do you have any pictures you could post of your bench?Regards,
Buzzsaw
I'll post some later. Anyone know if there is a way to add my previous attachments to this post.Tom
Douglasville, GA
Tom,
If ya want you can just send to me directly at [email protected]...Thanks. Look forward to seeing the battleship...Regards,
Buzzsaw
Here a few pics of my bench.Tom
Douglasville, GA
WOW!!!!
But how can you *work* on that? Aren't you afraid of scratching it, spilling glue on it, etc.? (He said, desperately, trying not to think of the cheap POS in his so-called workshop)"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." A. Einstein
http://www.albionworks.net
It gets scratches sn glue on it all the time. The top is finished with a couple coats of waterlox so the glue pops right off and a every now and then I go over it with a hand scraper and add a coat of waterlox and that takes care of most of the scratches. I really don't have all that much money tied up in it so it's still a tool to me.Tom
Douglasville, GA
Functional AND beautiful... that's great. Thanks for posting the pics, "eye-candy" for woodworkers! "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." A. Einstein
http://www.albionworks.net
Tom,
That is awesome! Now I know why Sarge called it a 'Battleship'. Beautiful work...Thanks.Regards,
Buzzsaw
Tom,
I don'know, looks more like an aircraft carrier to me! Very nice work - must be a joy to work on.
The one thing that struck me is the lack of a toe kick - does it ever bother you that there isn't an overhang on the sides? I'm working on my bench design now and that's one of the items I'm considering.
Thanks for the inspiring post!
Wayne
The top extends out past the base molding 2 1/4 inches. I haven't found this to be a problem yet although I have only been using the bench for about a year and a half. I don't think it will ever be a problem. It is very easy to sweep up around compared to previous benches I have had.Tom
Douglasville, GA
wayne
The first time I saw his bench, that was my exact thought. He does have an over-hang as he stated. After having stood at Tom's bench, I found it was fine. When I stand at any bench the first thing that grabs me is if my toes can move without restriction. If not, I just feel concious of it and am distracted for the most part.
I also like plenty of toe and foot space. If you fall into this category I would plan and in-corporate it into your design. After all, it's customized for you.
You hit the nail on the head about aircraft carrier. When I first saw his bench at the Atlanta WW Show two years ago, I saw a Navy TomCat mistake it for one and make an approach. A last minute abort kept it the WW Show though instead of an Air Show.. he.. he.. he...
Regards...
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Bench looks terrific. Not sure if I would do anything on it for fear of ruining it, but sounds like you have accepted that it is in fact a "tool". Nice job and thanks for the pixRon from Pittsburgh
Tom
What a memory for an "ole man". ha.. ha...
Get your sky-light shop in that Taunton thang. I'm still trying to figure out what the h*ll they're talking about with that fancy picture thing they request. It doesn't sound like what my "Kodak Brownie" produces. :>)
Regards from L'ville...
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Buzz
Ditto Tom... Excellent book and you pick up a new idea each time you pick it up and scan through. It would be a plus for you IMO as some of the things that seem un-clear to you now will seem simple with a little home-work.
I don't hear any "buzzing" from your saw, get moving "trooper"! he.. he....
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Sarge,
If I didn't have a real job my saw would be buzzin' all day long :)
Thanks for all your help and concern...Regards,
Buzzsaw
Buzz
You're welcome! I have a real part-time job too. It's a real "drag" having to work with "old mucle cars" and "modified "rods" 6 hours a day, but a "man gotta do what a man gotta do". ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
The pics Tom will post for you are not really a work-bench, it's really a wooden "battle-ship". He's always trying to pass it off as a work-bench. Don't believe him. :>)
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Frankly, I think pine makes a great work surface. It's easy on cutting edges. You don't necessarily have to use a backer board when chopping dovetails unless you're one of those woodworkers who can't stand for the top to get marred. If a chisel slips and hits the benchtop at an odd angle the edge won't roll up like it might if the top were Maple or Beech.
At the thickness you mentioned - 2x4 width - the top should have the heft it needs too. The economy speaks for itself.
Edited 3/12/2004 1:19 pm ET by CHASSTANFORD
I've seen several references in this discussion about using construction lumber for building a bench top and referring to the wood as pine and questioning whether it would be too soft for a bench top. Construction lumber is almost never white pine which would be quite soft for a work surface.
In the Northeast and probably most of the Northern states construction lumber is typically Douglas fir, which is technically a pine, but it is a tougher and much more wear resistant wood. From what I'm told, most of the Southern states use yellow pine for construction and it too is quite different from white pine. About the only place you might find white pine cut as construction lumber is in small local mills that sell directly to the public.
Both Douglas fir and yellow pine have soft early wood and very hard late wood. As long as tight grained boards of either species are used, preferably quarter sawn, both varieties are a good bench top material though neither would be as elegant as a hardwood top.
John W.
True, but Doug. Fir and Yellow Pine are still much softer and easier on tools than Beech or Rock Maple.
I'd be tempted to let them sit around for a month or so - I'd even move them outside on nice, sunny days then back in. Force them to move, discard the really bad ones. You need to buy four to seven more boards than you'll actually need so that you can pick the straightest ones come glue-up time.
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled