I’m making a very simple outdoor chair from an old Rodale book. The pieces are held together with both glue and deck screws. If you can clamp the pieces together while the glue dries, are the screws structurally unnecessary?
Janet
I’m making a very simple outdoor chair from an old Rodale book. The pieces are held together with both glue and deck screws. If you can clamp the pieces together while the glue dries, are the screws structurally unnecessary?
Janet
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Replies
Janet,
I have built outdoor pieces many times and have found unless they are only outside when the weather is fine, then under cover, I have found the mechanical fasteners are important to maintain the structural integrity, especially with chairs.
One trick I have found, is to use good quality brass screws, and instead of driving them all the way, so you have to countersink for the head of the screw, is to cut off the screw head so you just have the brass shank exposed as a peg end.
If you need more info, don't hesitate to ask.
So long from Grand Forks, gte
It depends on the quality of the joinery, and whether you're glueing edge to edge, edge to end grain, etc.
If you don't like the look of screws, countersink them and plug with a button.And don't use drywall screws.
I've found that when working to someone else's plans that use screws in the construction, that more often than not, the screws are replacing a traditional joint rather than strengthening one. My current project doesn't have a single fixing of any kind, nothing but wood, but things would have gone a whole lot faster not to mention easier if I'd used screws... I doubt it would have had the same mechanical strength or esthetic appeal though...
Given that your chairs could be subjected to extremes of weather, personally I'd prefer to use both glued joints and screws to back them up... belt and braces kinda idea just to be on the safe side.
Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
You might consider using a good construction adhesive such as Liquid Nails or PL3000. This stuff is, without a doubt, the most versatile adhesive I've ever used for outdoor projects. It seems to be as strong as most good epoxies, but retains more flexibility. That said, I'll still often use screws just to act as a clamp until the adhesive actually sets up and reaches full strength.
Regards,
Ron
If you are going to use screws outside, use stainless or bronze. Brass will corrode and galvanized will rust. Even then, plug the holes.
The best way to build outdoor furniture is the same as indoor. Use the proper joint.
I like epoxy glues for outdoor stuff. Tried the poly glues and they don't fill gaps well and are really messy.
_________________________________
Michael in San Jose
"In all affairs it's a healthy thing now and then to hang a question mark on the things you have long taken for granted." Bertrand Russell
Sam Maloof says you need good joinery, screws and glue to hold a chair together. Who am I to argue?
Sam Maloof may be talking about some chairs, some of the time. In fine furniture it's customary to show no screws or fasteners of any kind. Flush cut dowel plugs or buttons indicate fasteners to a smart consumer.
I've never built a chair, so I can't speak from experience. I did look at the chairs in my house & I see all of them have joints that are screwed, and in most cases glued, too. commonly, there are corner blocks screwed and glued, legs screwed to backs & seats, etc. Often they are plugged, but there are still screws there. Maloof says he uses screws in his chairs to ensure long life. He has developed a leg to seat joint that would be strong on its own, but still uses screws. His customers don't seem to mind.
I don't use screws for structural joints in the furniture I build. I use traditional joinery like M&T and that works well for me. I will use screws for attaching tops to tables or anywhere I need to allow for seasonal movement. I also use screws for cabinets. I believe screws will loosen in a joint exposed to a lot of stress.
Janet, drywall screws are hardened and tend to snap when stressed. Construction screws are usually a bit tougher and will bend before they break. Some manufacturers don't bother with these niceties, though and just change the package.
Edited 8/26/2004 11:51 am ET by mangler
you're right, chairs are usually reinforced with screws and corner bloks from underneath.
That's why i said, no visible fasteners...
Edited 8/26/2004 1:32 pm ET by JACKPLANE
bump.
How can a smart consumer or even you tell a flush cut dowel peg from a flush cut dowel plug? Also you might want to rephase "in fine furniture it's customary" to "in traditional period furniture it's customary". Not really trying to "screw" with you too much, just pointing out things changed early on in the last century at least with the A&C movement.
I guess when Sam get's over $15,000 for his rocker and has an order backlog of over a year for them I'd say that qualifies as fine furniture in my book and Sam can use all the screws he wants :)
BTW for outdoor work I use epoxy coated deck screws bunged or exposed. Unlike brass they can be power driven easily and they are more corrosion resistant than SS.John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
The more things change ...
We trained hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to form up into teams, we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing; and a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress while producing confusion, inefficiency, and demoralization.
Petronious Arbiter, 210 BC
I said, "And don't use drywall screws". That is, common black screws designed for drywall, not elsewhere because they're brittle and can snap/fail. When they're deck screws they're deck screws- reinforced with an epoxy coating and generally have a larger diameter for strength.
You're right I should have said period furniture,not fine furniture.
I never talked about flush cut pegs v. plugs, I only said a smart consumer can tell when a fastener or plug exists v. not having one.
It all depends what the customer wants, and what the woodworker can offer.
Well, then, is the glue superfluous?
Janet
no
Janet, if you build that way( with only screws) the chair will squeak every time someone uses it. In short, the glue strengthens the joint the way the tendons strengthen bones.
Edited 8/27/2004 3:31 pm ET by JACKPLANE
re: drywall screws I agree, however "Supersinkers" are a mainstay in my shop.
Smart (enough) customers who would know that a flush end grain dowel through an M&T joint was properly a peg and not simply hiding a screw are pretty tough to come by. Even after we educate them only 1 in 10 are willing to pay for our craft.John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
The more things change ...
We trained hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to form up into teams, we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing; and a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress while producing confusion, inefficiency, and demoralization.
Petronious Arbiter, 210 BC
Thank you for your views. I don't mind the screws; just wondered why both were necessary.
What is the problem with drywall screws? The local hardward store didn't have anything called a "deck screw"--although they had "construction screws." They looked pretty much like drywall screws except for an unthreaded section at the head end.
Janet
What is the problem with drywall screws?
Janet..sumply put.... their lack of tolerence to weather. Drywall screws are designed for indoor use. For your outdoor chair project, you need to be looking at either stainless steel, brass, or a high quality zinc coated screw. If you're working with oak, you need to use either wooden dowels or brass screws; oak will leech the iron out of ordinary screws, the iron causing a dark black stain in the oak....Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
The shank of a drywall screw (the unthreaded area under the screw head) is relatively small and breaks easily. "Deck screws" have a heavier shank and seldom break off.
Try Home Depot for deck screws - they usually have a large selection of sizes and colors. You'll also need a different bit to drive them - a #2 phillips doesn't fit right. There's usually a 'stubby' bit in each box of deck screws but I keep a few longer bits on hand since the 'stubbies' sometimes get swallowed by the drill chuck.
I inherited several coffee cans of old fashioned, slot headed, double taper screws. I don't usually use fastners, but I think it is Ok to use them for strength if you have to on things like butt joints (end grain in the glue joint). These screws are a pain to use because the pilot hole has to be double tappered and you have to lubricate the screw with beeswax. Boy Oh Boy they are big tough screws though. In terms of sheer strength I don't think a deck screw can hold a candle. Some of these are close to 3/8 inch in diameter. If they had a torq or square head on them, they'd be ideal.
Any other ludites using these old timey screws?
Frank
actually, in your case I wouldnt use superfluous screws............try stainless or brass
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