Replies

1. 
   Frank Vucolo | Apr 04, 2008 05:13pm | #1

   I own the Lie Nielsen and really like it. But last week I happened to visit Tools For Working Wood and tried the Grammercy. Very nice tool!

   I'm not trading in my LN for it, but had I tried both, side by side, before buying, it would be a close call.

   It seemed (I didn't check the specs) that the GT had more TPI and a softer set. It started easily, left a narrower kerf, but was still agressive enough and easy to control.

2. 
   Samson | Apr 04, 2008 08:02pm | #2

   I made the kit:  http://forums.taunton.com/fw-knots/messages?msg=38909.1

   I like the saw a lot.  I have the LN and a LV Wetzloff along with a (middle price point) rip dozuki.  All the saws are excellent, and really, it just comes down to a matter of personal preferences. 

3. 
   SARGEgrinder47 | Apr 05, 2008 07:15pm | #3

   I have to agree with Samson... it's more of a matter of preference. I started with a very cheap back-saw in 1972.. progressed to an English Gent's saw.. then a Dozuki.. then a LN Independence DT saw. What I found over that course was I had more control personally with a pull stroke opposed to a push stroke.

   So.. I sold the LN Independence recently to to back to "old trusty" which is a cheap ($19) Irwin Extra Fine (19T) pull saw with a back rib which is unusual for a pull saw. I have more control with that saw than any I have held personally. And it's great for fine detail cuts and tenons unless they are very large.

   Price doesn't always reflect accuracy and feel as I have come to realize. I would suggest cut first.. then measure twice how much you are willing to pay from the actual outcome....

   Sarge..

   
1. 
   ctsjr | Apr 06, 2008 05:38am | #4

   SargeHave you tried the Dozuki "Z" saw? Rockler and Woodcraft both carry them. It's what I used for my dovetails and I really like the performance. Hope you are well. Tom"Notice that at no time do my fingers leave my hand"

1. 
   SARGEgrinder47 | Apr 06, 2008 08:30am | #7

   I went to Rockler-websitte and looked Tom, but not totally sure which dozuki as I saw none listed as Z. I think it is the one that has an inter-changeable blade to get a flush saw also? I have not used one.. but if that is the one I would probably like it as it has a back-rib.

   The cheap Irwin is an excellent saw IMO. It's made in Japan and has the back-rib but has a loop handle instead of the traditional straight bamboo handle on a Japanese saw. It has a push button that allows the blade to pop off to replace. The problem with that is I could not find replacement blades. I called Irwin and the young lady told me they decided not to put the replacement blades on the  market. Huh... go figure.. ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..

   But I love to use the saw... so I just bought 3 in case they dis-continue them. At $19 a pop, a sound investment as I see it. I cut tenons and a lot of detail work with it. I know it's Irwin... but it doesn't work like most Irwin I've seen. Whoever they get it from in Japan did a very nice job.

   Regards...

   Sarge..

1. 
   ctsjr | Apr 06, 2008 02:41pm | #9

   SargeSounds like you've got it worked out well. Here's the link to the saw I mentioned, just in case. I've cross cut and ripped with it in white oak, ash, black walnut and it performs very well--no tooth breakage like some Japanese saws. It's a crosscut saw, but it cuts a dovetail very well--easy to control. I tried two different LN saws yesterday at the WW show in Houston. Just like everything else, you've got to learn to use the saw. Tomhttp://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=1062"Notice that at no time do my fingers leave my hand"

1. 
   SARGEgrinder47 | Apr 06, 2008 08:15pm | #10

   I saw that saw also and I like the back-rib... but I would personally prefer fewer teeth. The 19 T I have gives a fine line, but has the fewer teeth which speeds things up a bit. I cut 96 DT's a few weeks ago and the time was reduced over the older Dozuki I had with more teeth.

   Also... I had the problem you mentioned about breaking a tooth as most of them are geared for soft-wood. The Irwin seems to be a harder metal as I have not broke a tooth in hard-wood yet. I don't that is attributed to Irwin, probably more to a free-hand given by them to the Japanese company after they told them to design a saw they could sell at a very reasonable price.

   BTW... If I were to buy another Dozuki.. I would look for one as the one you have with the back-rib. I just like the blade being stiffened for more aggressive sawing. Just a personal thing as I take it to high gear once I make the first 4-6 pulls and establish the line.

   Regards...

   Sarge..

2. 
   JeffHeath | Apr 06, 2008 07:09am | #5

   Sarge

   You could've just filed the teeth off the LN saw, and re-filed them backwards, so it works on the pull.

   <G>

   Jeff                   with a small grin

1. 
   SARGEgrinder47 | Apr 06, 2008 08:40am | #8

   It would have been simpler if they had just added a reverse gear.. then you could go both ways. I used to have a 3 cylinder 2 cycle Saab back in the 70's. The crank-shaft will rotate both directions as opposed to most engines by changing the firing order of the cylinders. If you put #3 plug wire on #1 and vice versa with #1 on #3 (#2 is neutral and stays the same)..... you had 3 bona-fide reverse gears and 1 forward.

   I put one of those old hotel style desk bells in the glove compartment and when you went around a corner... it would ring. My dates in those days thought I was an interesting fellow. I believe the correct word at that time was "groovy" or "far out.. man".  ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..

   Oh well.. that was another life long ago...

   Regards...

   Sarge..

1. 
   JeffHeath | Apr 07, 2008 03:20am | #11

   Sarge

   Someday, we shall have to all sit around the fire, do some serious damage to a keg of ale and a bottle or two of scotch, and tell these stories.  That would be just fine......

   Jeff

1. 
   SARGEgrinder47 | Apr 07, 2008 08:16am | #12

   Like Delta Air Lines... "Ready when you are....." :>)

   Regards...

   Sarge..

4. 
   rarebear | Apr 06, 2008 08:09am | #6

   I am pretty good friends with Mike Wetzloff and if your looking to buy a saw buy it direct as Mike has to give Rob Lee a discount and I think you might just get a little better saw or at least make Mike a little happier..

   http://www.wenzloffandsons.com/saws/index.html

   But what your Two Cherries saw needs is a good sharpening.. There is only a hand full of companies today that sell a saw sharpened right..

    

   A few good places to learn are

   http://www.vintagesaws.com/library/primer/sharp.html

   and

   http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/environment/fspubs/77712508/toc.htm

   For a small saw you can use a WW vise with a few boards as vise jaws

    

   -rarebear-
   http://www.rexmill.com My Hand Plane Resource

1. 
   sykesville | Apr 09, 2008 02:12am | #15

   thanks for all the advice, rarebear. I'm sure the Two Cherries needed correct sharpening, and lots of it.

   I noticed there was a 21-week wait on his saws. I didn't want to wait more than two days.

   jack

5. 
   mbholden | Apr 07, 2008 06:49pm | #13

   sykesville,

   I have both the lie-nielsen and the gramercy tools dovetail saws.

   I am currently making a run of five spice cabinets, some 700 dovetails all told.

   I prefer the gramercy primarily for the handle and hang.

   Both are fine saws, but remember that saws need "breaking in" before they perform their best. A hundred or so cuts and lots of wax on the plate (I use parafin wax) before you can judge a new saws ability to start or track.

   Mike

   FWIW, in the pic you can see my saw arsenal - Wenzloff large tenon saw, Tyzack tenon, LN carcase, LN dovetail, Gramercy dovetail, couple japanese saws.

   There are others, but not for joinery.

    

   
1. 
   sykesville | Apr 09, 2008 02:04am | #14

   Got it. And no breaking in required. The Gramercy is super right out of the box. Man, what a fine cut, and easy. If it does take a hundred or so cuts to get in its prime, I can't imagine it being better. Will let you know in a couple weeks.

   Now, is there a cross-cut saw out there that'll cut this nice? I've been using a rusty old Stanely home depot special for years. I proably don't know what I've been missing.

   jack

1. 
   mbholden | Apr 09, 2008 03:35am | #16

   Sykesville,

   I like all of the western saws in the picture - those are my users.

   The LN is only crosscut, brassback saw I have.

   If I was to do it over, my heart says that I would order from Wenzloff and accept the wait.

   If you are impatient, the LN is readily available and fully functional.

   The nice thing is that you have choices. Five years ago the pickings were slim.

   Dont forget that you can get an older disston, Tyzack, etc for much less than a LN. Enough less that you could have it professionally sharpened to begin with and still save money. Check your local saw sharpener, they often have saws for sale as well.

   Mike

1. 
   sykesville | Apr 09, 2008 03:40am | #17

   Doubt there's a saw sharpener in these parts (Greater Baltimore/Wash DC area), but I could be wrong. Hell, I've gotta drive 35 miles to the nearest woodcraft, and don't know of any woodworking tool/supplier closer. But thanks again for good advice.
   jack