Replies

1. 
   jg0258 | Jan 19, 2011 01:08am | #1

   Get the 7 with the HAF

   Like you I want the #8 for it's length and weight, but it has been my experience when doing tables that if you get tear out it is usually too deep to "fix" with a smoother. I have the Veritas jointer, so when I am working on specias that are suceptible to tear out I can just change the blade but if you want to go with LN I would get the 7 and the HAF and then later on the 8. I plan to get the eight soon and maybe 2 blades so I can do a back bevel. 

2. 
   SteveRice | Jan 19, 2011 09:58am | #2

   ANYBODY EVER USE A LIE-NIELSEN #8 WITH A BACK BEVEL?

   Thanks.  Sounds like good advice.

   I also like your idea about getting the #8 with an extra blade or two and putting a back bevel on them. 

   I know the #8 comes with a 3/16" thick blade, but I'm still wondering if a back bevel will weaken the edge.

   So, now the question becomes: has anyone out there ever used a Lie-Nielsen #8 with a back bevel?

   Again, we realize that success depends upon the species & grain pattern, and also the size and angle of the back bevel, but it would be interesting to hear about other reader's experiences.

   Thanks,

   Steve

1. 
   DonStephan | Jan 19, 2011 08:21pm | #3

   Another source of info might be LN.  I've always found their information to be accurate and helpful.

3. 
   jointerman | Jan 21, 2011 01:54am | #4

   Have you considered the Bevel-up Lee Valley Jointer planes? They have 25, 38, and 50 degree blades that go on top of their 12 degree bed angle. I've got the 25 and 38 degree blades. They are nice and thick and don't chatter at all.

   The toughest thing with the 38 degree blade is to keep all of your sweat from dripping on what you're flattening. ;).

   
4. 
   gdblake | Jan 21, 2011 02:15pm | #5

   high angle frog on a jointer plane

   Steve:

   A jointer is not a smoother.  The purpose of a jointer is to joint the edges of boards straight and flat. Most of us also use a #7 or #8 as a try plane to flatten the faces of panels after glue up.  When functioning as a try plane a high angle frog is nice to have, but be warned, the high angle frog makes a jointer harder to push.   I have the LN #7, a great plane but I wish I had gotten the #8 at the time instead for the extra mass and length.  Back bevels do not weaken a cutting edge, if anything it strengthens the edge by making the cutting angle less acute unless you lower the bevel angle in relation to the face of the iron.

   I have made two wooden jointers to go with my LN.  The first is 24" long, uses a LN 2 3/8" LN double iron and has a 40 degree bed.  This is actually my go to jointer.  Works like a dream.  Super for straightening and squaring the end grain edges of panel glue ups as well as preparing the edges for glue up.  It is also the first plane I use to flatten a large panel after glue up.  I kept the iron sharp and seldom have a problem with tear out when using this plane inspite of the lower bed.  The second is 30" long with a vintage 2 5/8" wide and very thick double iron with a 50 degree bed.  I accidently widened the mouth on this plane too much for it to be much use as a try plane.  However, it is works fairly well as an oversized fore plane for flattening the occasional rough sawn board that comes my way in addition to match planing thicker stock.  If I can find a wider iron (at least 2 7/8") I'll cut this plane down to a 20" length for permanent use as a fore plane and make a new 30" jointer.  The reason for such a wide iron is to be able to match plane thicker boards for table top glue ups.

   gdblake

1. 
   SteveRice | Jan 21, 2011 05:03pm | #7

   A JOINTER IS NOT A SMOOTHER

   gdblake,

   Thanks for your response.

   I appreciate your advice, but as jg0258 warned "it has been my experience when doing tables that if you get tear out it is usually too deep to "fix" with a smoother".  This is my main concern.

   What I might add, is that when you think about it, most bench planes (at least all the Lie-Nielsen's) have a 45 degree frog.  Aside from their length, width and weight, they're all pretty much the same. So, if you were so inclined, you could tune a jointer to perform as a smoother.  I've heard David Charlesworth mention a similar sentiment on one of his DVD's. Although that's not my intent, it's certainly food for thought.

   I would agree that the extra mass would certainly be beneficial when pushing a higher angle blade through dense hard wood or difficult grain patterns - hence my dilemma in the first place.

   Your wooden planes sound very interesting.  Perhaps you'd consider posting some photos of them

   What is most interesting to me, is how there are so many different ways to interpret and solve our woodworking challenges. 

   Thanks again for your response,

   Steve

   BTW - love your signature phrase :-)

1. 
   gdblake | Jan 22, 2011 05:44pm | #8

   True, any plane can be used as a smoother

   Steve:

   It is true that just about any plane can be used as a smoother (or any other bench plane task for that matter).  When I was in High School all we had were abused Stanley #5s to work with.  We did everything with a #5 from jointing the edges for panel glue ups to smoothing the panels when they came out of the clamps.  David Charlesworth uses a # 5 1/2 for just about everything one would use a bench plane for.  There was a famous woodworker (can't remember for sure, but I think it was Alan Peters) that used a #7 for everything.  Both of these guys do/did great work.  

   You may already know this.  With any frog angle,  the cut of the iron into the wood is a combination of slicing and scraping.  The lower the bed angle is the more slicing and the less scraping of a cut. The higher the bed angle is the less slicing and the more scraping of a cut. Think of a 45 degree bed as being 50% slicing and 50% scraping.  The reason most Bailey style planes come with a 45 degree frog is because this is a nice compromise bed angle that will work on most hardwoods and softwoods. Where you usually run into tear out is with figured hardwoods.  These can be tricky to work with any plane.  Sometimes a high angle frog is the ticket, sometimes a low angle gets you there, or maybe you have to use a cabinet scraper, and if all else fails sandpaper.  There is a simply rule of thumb for choosing what plane to use depending on how the wood is responding.  If the surface shows tear out switch to a plane with a steeper (higher) bed angle.  If a board’s surface becomes fuzzy from planing switch to a plane with a lower bed angle.

   I have learned there is more to the equation that just bed angles and how sharp the iron is.  A lot has to do with how well the iron is bedded in the plane.  Bailey style planes, by nature of their design don't hold an iron as firmly in place as other planes such as wooden or infill planes.  My wooden jointer with a 40 degree bed using the same double iron as my LN #7 (with the 45 degree frog) is less likely to produce tearout.  This is one of the reasons I have gone to making my own planes using the Krenov method.  In addition to the jointers I told you about I have several small smoothers, a fore plane, and a panel plane that I have made.  I also have the LN bevel up jack and smoother with extra irons sharpened with steeper bevel angles.  Without spending a lot of money I can match the plane to the wood.

   I understand your goal of not creating tearout in the first place.  You say you have a Veritas bevel up jack.  I would use that plane for working the faces of boards and swap out the irons depending on what the wood called for in regards to high or low cutting angles.  Get a jointer to use as a jointer first, and secondly to use as a super large smoother.  To that end I think the #8 is a better jointer than the #7, which is why that is what I would get if I had it to do over.

   You just all of my two cents worth.  I hope you find it helpful.  I have attached a picture as requested of the 24" jointer.

   gdblake

   
5. 
   SteveRice | Jan 21, 2011 04:59pm | #6

   Jointernan,

   Thanks for the suggestion, it's a good one.

   But I already have the Veritas low angle jack plane and although I am pleased with it's performance, Veritas just doesn't compare to Lie-Nielsen quality in my humble opinion.  I have written my reasons elsewhere in the KNOTS/HAND TOOLS columns, so I won't go into that here.  

   If it were a simple matter of "angles of approach", I would go with the LN #7 and the high angle frogs.  The sheer mass of the #8 and the size of the blade is just very appealing to me.  The Veritas jointer at 22" and 7 1/2 pounds, is narrower and lighter than even the LN #7 - and it doesn't come close to the LN #8.

   I'm certain many will get excellent results with the Veritas LA jointer, but we all have our personal preferences, as silly as they may sound to others. I'm just after a big massive plane.

   BTW, your comment about the sweat reinforces my desire for the extra mass of the #8.

   Thanks for taking the time to respond to my query,

   Steve

   P.S. The table top looks great!  Thanks for posting those photos  :-)

1. 
   derekcohen | Jan 24, 2011 08:25am | #9

   I regularly use a jointer with a half-pitch (60 degree) bed. This is one I built myself, 30" of Jarrah and a 3/16" 01 steel ...

   http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Planes/My%20planes/Jointer.jpg

   The advantage of this plane is that I do not have to be concerned about tearout when jointing the hardwoods I work. I do not find the high cutting angle any harder to use than lower pitches.

   The Veritas jointer at 22" and 7 1/2 pounds, is narrower and lighter than even the LN #7 - and it doesn't come close to the LN #8.

   Steve, the Veritas BU Jointer is the same length overall as the #7, but the mouth is set back 2" and this effectively gives it the registration length of a #8. Being able to swap in a blade with a high cutting angle makes the Veritas hugely useful when flattening hardwood tabletops. I'd say that the Veritas is heavy enough, and that the LN #7 - if used with a high angle frog (say 55 degrees) would be harder to start and would benefit from the extra mass to create the momentum to keep going. Generally, BU planes are easier to push than BD planes. (I am not pushing BU planes here, just stating an opinion based on my experiences with both types of planes).

   Regards from Perth

   Derek

6. 
   plgard | May 03, 2011 09:45pm | #10

   HAF's for the #8

   If memory serves, when LN started offering HAF’s their site and catalog listed a 50° frog for the #4, and both a 50° and 55° for the #4½.

   They now offer both a 50° and 55° for the #4 and because as you mentioned many planes make use of the same frogs, the site lists 45°, 50°, and 55° for the #4 through #7, minus the #5¼.

   Lie-Nielsen seems more than just a little open to suggestions.  Call LN (800-327-2520) and request HAF’s for the #8, I will.  I like options!

7. 
   blaytonii | Nov 12, 2013 04:35pm | #11

   back bevel on iron

   Loos like someone already addressed it, but if you're still worried abour a back bevel weakening the edge you could always try to contact Hock Tools and see if they'll make you a monster (1/4 'or 5/16') iron.  Or, just order some O1 flat stock and make your own.  Seems like making your own plane irons isn't too uncommon and I know http://www.onlinemetals.com supplies precision ground O1 flat stock, in a variety of widths and thicknesses, at very reasonable prices.  I've considered it myself...I could make 3 irons for less than the price of one Hock iron, if I'm willing to invest the time into shaping the iron and bevel.  Would be a good solution for special-purpose homemade woodies and a lot cheaper than paying $40 for a good O1 iron only to take a file to it and shape it to fit.

8. 
   Troy | Nov 21, 2013 01:09pm | #12

   I have a Clifton #7 so the high angle frog is not an option, a friend of mine has the LN# 8 and uses it with a small back bevel and has been thrilled with it  and with a tight mouth tear out is not an issue with him.

9. 
   Rob_Sp | Nov 21, 2013 05:38pm | #13

   Jointer

   If you haven't bought the plane yet I would recommend the low angle 7 vs a high angle frog for the 8. With low angle planes the iron is rock solid, this is the reason it dosen't need a "chipbreaker" this in my opinion out weighs the slightly longer 8. You can simply change the cutting angle by changing the grind or secondary bevel. I use a LN block plane to fit my drawer faces to their openings. I typically use figured Cherry and starting with a face that is the net size of the opening, I plane to a gap of .020" between drawer and opening all around. I use a secondary bevel of forty five degrees for an included angle of 57 degrees, 45 is easy as it is easy to set up the blade in a honing jig using a tri square and it gets me close enough to 60. With this high angle and the solidity of a bevel up plane I can easily cut the figured grain with no tearout. For end grain I keep a second block plane with a standard low angle about 37 degrees. You can keep multiple blades with different grinds for various woods. Infinitely variable and easier/cheaper than an additional frog.

10. 
    tomr2 | Oct 25, 2014 10:33am | #14

    All the time. At one point I was waay into the tools. Still like em. I agonized over the 7-8 choice. Bought the 8. Cant figure out why I need the 7. Think of the wood one can buy for the price of that 2nd jointer. The back bevel works great. The weight and width of cut with the 8 are great. A real sharp blade and a light cut, combined wih the mass and tearout's not much of a problem. The back bevel helps. No issue with edge wear.

11. 
    Rob_Sp | Oct 29, 2014 08:41am | #15

    #7

    I wouild recommend the low angle seven with an extra blade. It is much easier to change the blade than the frog. The low angle plane is also a more solid arraingment than the high angle frog, this is important as more force is necessary to push the high angle configuration.

    I typically trim my doors and drawers to tight and exacting tolerances with a low angle (12º) block plane. The drawers are typically figured which presents a challenge regarding tearout when planing long grain. I hone a secondary bevel at 45º, this combined with the bed angle give me a combined cutting angle of just under 60º. This allows me to quickly trim my components to size, with abandon. I don't think I could make this plane tear out if I tried.

    Maybe before you spend a large sum of money, you might want to modify a block plane as described and do a little hands on experimentation.

    Rob

12. 
    ArmedWithABanjo | Dec 18, 2015 07:34am | #16

    High Angle Frog In LN #7 & Back-Bevel In LN#8

    Hi all,

    Over the last few days I have been working some very nice Ebony which is very hard and requires high Effective Pitch to get a good finish.  I needed to thickness by hand this Ebony down to 1/16" for use on a jewellery box that I'm making.  I tried by LN Bronze #4 with high angle (55 degree) frog and it worked great, I also tried a back-bevel (25 degree) whilst using the high angle frog (55 degrees) which gave me an effective pitch of 80 degrees.  Now, I accept that 80 degrees is overkill, and it was only a mistake that I hadn't swapped back to my standard frog (45 degrees) but it worked and I was impressed with the results.

    As the stock was 24" long, and less than 1/8" thick, I found there wasn't enough sole of the LN Bronze #4 in front of the blade so the planing action would bend the stock and it would slip over the bench stop I was using.

    So, to counter this I tried both my jointer planes as these gave me nearly 6-8" of sole in front of the mouth.  The LN #8 with standard frog (45 degrees) and back-bevel blade (25 degrees) which gave me an Effective Pitch of 70 degrees worked great!

    Out of interest I also fitted a high angle frog (55 degrees) into my LN #7 and this worked too, both with (EF 80 degrees) or without a back-bevel blade (EF 70 degrees)

    In summary, the frogs are interchangeable between the corresponding width planes (2" for #4 & #5, 2 3/8" for #4 1/2, #5 1/2, #6 & #7).  To my knowledge, Lie Nielsen don't yet make high angle frogs for the #8 (2 5/8" wide) but if you asked them they probably could.

    I have had amazing success with the David Charlesworth method of 25 degree back-bevels (aka double bevel blade), they are very quick to create, do not weaken the blade in my experience, and provided the shaving being taken is less than 1 thousandth of an inch then you will be fine.

    I hope this helps you in your quest.

    Stephen Halliday.