Any opinions about Laguna table saws?
BrianDerr
| Posted in Power Tools and Machinery on
I’ve been planning on getting a PM2000 toward the end of this year to go along with my new shop (a major remodelling project . . . ), but between looking at the budget and surfing the net lately I thought, why not save a grand and get a Laguna instead? Or maybe a Jet? I’m more or less happy with my Jet bandsaw and planer . . .
My priorities are dust collection, fit and finish, riving knife, customer service and reliability. Any experiences, info or opinions would be appreciated.
Brian
Replies
I believe that the parent company that owns Laguna also owns Grizzly tools. I can't speak for the Laguna tools specifically, but I just purchased a new Grizzly slider and the workmanship seems top notch.
There are two lines of Laguna tools, some of which are made and Europe (TS/TSS/Robland) and some made in Asia (Platinum Line). I assume that you're looking at the Platinum series? You may also want to check out the new Grizzly G0690 with an American made Leeson motor!
My previous, 14", Laguna bandsaw was manufactured in Bulgaria. I can not find a "country of origin" on my new 16" saw but would suspect it was made in Bulgaria too.Frosty"I sometimes think we consider the good fortune of the early bird and overlook the bad fortune of the early worm." FDR - 1922
Thanks for the response. I thought of Grizzley, but ruled out the 3hp saw when I noticed that it didn't seem to have a dust chute.Brian
My Grizzly G0623X has a dust chute and a hose internally that leads to the dust port. However, I can't speak for the G0690, but maybe it'd be worth a phone call to them? Have them send you a picture? But at any rate, more importantly than a dust chute would be something to remind me to turn on the DC before I start the saw! ;)
My griz is going on 5 years old is made tight as a drum and dust collection is excellent. I own a lot of green (17"BS, 12" jointer, Hz boring machine all good tools)I was married by a judge - I should have asked for a jury.George Burns
Some time back, I recall reading that Asian products are as good as any if an American is present and on the job to insist that the quality control is maintained. I sort of believe that. I have a couple PM machines that were built in Taiwan that I like and it seems you hear nothing but good from those who have Grizzly. Maybe they have an American (or European) at the helm.
I just got a flyer from grizzly touting a slider made in Germany. Go figure!I was married by a judge - I should have asked for a jury.George Burns
Just a few observations to cement my position as a contrarian.One's awareness of quality (a naturally occurring subjective value) depends greatly upon one's orientation. To the man that hitched a plow to a spouse, a mule is a wonderful tool. Then to move on to a tractor would indeed be miraculous. To move the opposite direction/orientation - from tractor to mule - would be a definite downgrade of 'quality.' This is all based on direct experience. Since most woodworkers here appear to come from little/no tools to router, to small table saw, to small planer, etc, I think it is fair to say that most have never operated serious woodworking equipment (no direct experience). Therefore, the subjective calls as to quality are from a valid perspective. However, if one has operated professional (big boy) equipment, the observation that a drum sander is a great tool (for the general woodworking population) is humorous.To go from an Altendorf or Martin panel saw to a Grizzly panel saw would definitely be a downgrade. I could be wrong, since I have not done so. Maybe someone out there has and can offer a testimonial. Does it matter? I have spent a good deal of my professional life educating the people I come in contact with about quality - that subjective value - and how real quality can enhance the quality of one's life. Good music, good wine, good woodwork? Yes, of course. I'll even take it a step further and say this extends to the way the good woodwork (or good wine, or good music) is produced. The quality of the experience of making an object carries thru into that object. The fact that the best tools - hand, powered, whatever - contribute to the quality of life of the maker helps impart a higher level of quality to the finished object. Enhances the quality of life vertically as well as horizontally, if you like. Then we see posts about the dramatic cost savings with this or that machine brand, sandwiched between posts where professionals or serious makers lament the public's unwillingness to justify/buy quality. Or more than likely, the customers' unawareness of quality as anything beyond a dovetail joint. The logical circle is broken in this double think where one issue cannot reconcile to the other. Just an observation or two. Dave S
acornwoodworks.com
Just a thought or two here: Would a high dollar tablesaw MAKE me a better woodworker? NO! A WELL-TUNED tablesaw will, but even one that is less than well tuned (or well "heeled") saw will still work. WHY! The less than "perfect" saw will FORCE one to be a better wood worker, whereas a "perfect saw" is simply a crutch. When one relies on the saw itself to make perfect cuts, rather than the woodworker taking the time and effort to make the cut right, one tends to get a bit lazy about it. "Why should I check the cut? My Mark #### saw does that for me." If one relies on the machines to do the work for them, rather than take a little time to learn and develop the SKILLS needed to work with wood, one becomes just a machine operator, but , anybody can do that. So, are you just a machine operator, or do you want to be a craftsman that works with the wood, has the skills needed to make a job go right when no power tools are in the picture? $3-5,000 for a saw..that saw had better be able to cut the wood on it's own, make my coffee, go get more supplies, and babysit the Grandbrats while I sit and watch it work.
If you were to carry the logic that a poorer saw makes a better craftsman, where would that go? Dull, bent-tooth handsaws are required to make flawless blockfronts?
Force one to be a better woodworker? I doubt that - I have seen plenty of hack work from both well-equipped and poorly equipped shops. Quality of product is a function of the operator and his relationship to his work. Try telling some of the finest woodworkers in the world that they are just machine operators that can't make a decent joint because the machine does it for them. One thing good machinery does is take the question out of things. Did I screw that up? Or did the blade drop when I started up? Or is the miter gauge off? Good equipment takes the slop out of your work. No, it is not absolutely essential, but it frees the mind (and spirit?) to concentrate on other matters rather than "Why is this happening."Try working like that an entire day or week, checking every change, proofing this and that, adjusting, tightening, proofing again, holding your tongue just right. Then try a day without all that c**p. You will be more productive, more on your toes, more receptive to serendipitous moments. Heck, you might be a better woodworker as a result. Skills are to be attained and then built upon. Every person in this shop learns fast, accurate S4S thru rough length, rough width, face and edge jointing, then planing. Each step and what is required so stock can be prepared square and tight. We have a machine that will do the same thing at 28 l/f per minute. Takes 2 minutes to set up. Accurately. This frees up the craftsmens' heads to consider process, geometry, adhesives, planning or whatever. Just as a computer does the drudgery of crunching numbers and more, they can take that effort, that slight question, out of the mix - the stock is right. Another observation is the defensiveness when some contrarian like me raises an issue that addresses quality of equipment and quality of life as somehow linked. Why is this? Simply denying the connection would do, but the connection isn't denied - perhaps since it is not acknowledged. The hobbyist generally has different goals from the professional. A hobbyist is working wood as a pastime - to fill time. A professional is doing it for hire. Dave S
Quality of tools is more relative than it is subjective, as it can be quantified, and it has nothing to do with scale.Your use of words like "serious woodworking equipment" is denigrating and arrogant. Some of us hobbyists are not trying to "fill time", we are doing a craft because the act of doing it is interesting and exciting. Your "big boy" equipment is not necessarily better quality and does not impart a better quality of life. It imparts production efficiency to those who value money over working with wood. You would rather let as many machines do the work as possible. Understandable as most "professionals" are not really interested in their craft as much as interested in the paycheck. I work in engineering and the same can be said of my colleages. That does not mean I go around telling hobbyists in programming and electronics that they are not serious, do not have quality of life, and have never used "big boy" equipment to their detriment.Your quality of experience is measured in how fast you can make woodwork projects without flaws. Hobbyists, since you are not aware, are not interested in making something as fast and flawless as possible. Otherwise, we would just buy plastic products or buy wooden ones that came out of a CNC. I do not want my projects to look like plastic. I want them to look like they are made out of wood and like they were made by me. A friend showed off his $6k "wenge" dining table. It does NOT look like wenge and it does NOT look like it was made by a person. It looks like a plastic mold.I don't know how you got into woodworking. Most of my colleagues spun a bottle to choose engineering so I can guess. I did not. Nor did I spin a bottle to choose to work wood in the small amount of spare time I have. I don't work wood to fill time. I am not retired. I squeeze time from other parts of my life to work wood because I want the experience of all the steps involved in milling the wood, cutting it, carving it, gluing it, and finishing it. You may be bored with it but some of us are not.Quality is an attribute applicable to any scale or type of woodworking. What you were describing is efficiency. I do not have to pay $3000+ per machine for efficiency or for quality. If I did that, I would be waiting half my life to outfit my shop with the machines I want to be useful and provide me a quality experience. If you really believe that quality only comes from being able to push a button and wait for the wood to be milled, you should talk to the folks in the Hand Tools section of the forum and you'll get an even larger difference of opinion.Good equipment "frees the mind"? Are you kidding? It speeds up your day and lets you finish the project faster to get the paycheck faster. That's what "big boy" equipment was designed for and how it is used. People that pay for "big boy" equipment for their home workshop are wasting their hard earned money. I read a comment around here recently that went "nobody regretted buying quality". I take that to be the same as the expression "wait until you can buy the best" which is so often told to newbies. What a load of crap. If you wait for that $3000 bandsaw as your first purchase, you will be missing out on what you can impart to your woodworking projects NOW while you wait to get that tool. This is where the quality in woodworking is subjective. Personally, I would rather aim for the tool I can afford that I think will carry me for a long time. If I outgrow it, I will upgrade.From what you say, the real problem is your disdain for customers not wanting to pony up for what YOU believe is quality. Fyi, customers do not like professionals that talk a big show and deliver a rushed me-too product or service for big bucks.I understand what it is to be a professional: you collect money for the work. Often, you have more practise. That is all. The passion, interest, and often quality, are often no more present in a professional's craft than they are in the general population. The hobbyist who practises the craft does so because he is interested and invested (beyond the paycheck) in doing it. This is just as true for mechanics, salespeople, doctors, et al. When I had more spare time, I did things like my own brake jobs. Despite the pros having more practise doing it, they did not have to live with the consequences of a rushed job. Most people are not content in their jobs and wish they did something else. You seem no different.
So does anyone have anything bad to say about Grizzley machines, tablesaws in particular? One poster says that Lagunas and Grizzleys are made in the same factory, and another that they wouldn't touch Laguna with a 10ft pole. Are there ANY criticisms of Griz., or are all comments qualified to the price point? Does 'go buy it' mean best bang for the buck, or best overall. I mean, if money were 'no object', would certain people rather have the eqivalent class Grizzley or Powermatic or Delta TS? Brian
Don't fall for the "made in the same factory" line. Geeeez, I get so tired of that. My response is: "So what?" Doesn't say anything about the specifications they are built to or how tight the quality control is on that particular model.
As to Grizzly, lots and lots of people love 'em and lots and lots of people will criticize. Some vehemently. The quality of their machines varies depending on the line, it seems. Their larger (8"+) jointers and cabinet saws seem to have the best reputation, be the most enduring. An introductory, hobby-shop band saw isn't going to be the same long-term quality as a big, heavy saw on the upper end of the line. That kinda stuff.....
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 8/14/2009 9:22 am by forestgirl
I once worked in a factory that had two lines. The guarantee on one line was about five times as long as the other but the quality control was very inferior. I learned that the length was no indicator of quality - at least in that factory. The other point that you alluded to is that if two machines come out of the same factory, one is half the price of the other, you wouldn't expect them to be of equal value. Every factory has its strong points and weaker points. I guess that is true of humans (and horses) also.
Brian.. both are comparable machines that will get the job done. I have been over the Griz TS for years and got to go over the Laguna Platinum at IWF in 2008. I would personally go for price after bottom line of shipping, etc. and then factor customer service and technical support into the equation. In my own personal dealings the support after the sale would go to Grizzly.
Good luck..Sarge..
Woodworkers' Guild of Georgia
To me, "go buy it", means that I have found or perceive the Grizzly machinery that I am using to be a better value in comparison to the cost and performance of other higher priced tools. Generally speaking I won't purchase a hand or machine tool unless I can confirm from others that are using or have used said tool to be one which has performed well over a significant period of time. What I am discovering is that Grizzly seems to have gotten a lot better over the years at manufacturing decent quality tools for a descent price. There are machines out there that are manufactured with tighter specs , better designed and built beefier to stand up to a lot more abuse and may be built with better materials. Generally one gets what one pays for. For the serious home hobbyist or one man professional shop their machines are proving more and more to be a very good value. I hope this clears up what I meant by saying, "GO buy it". The three major tools that I have used in my shop for the last three years have performed well and I am satisfied with their quality and performance.
"I read a comment around here recently that went 'nobody regretted buying quality'"That might have been me. Let me clarify. When I started out, I bought a table saw for $300. Brand is not important. Sure, it plugged in and the blade turned and it cut wood. But I was constantly frustrated with it's lack of quality and refinement. After one week, I wanted to sell it. I don't want to have to fiddle with my machinery every time before I use it. I want to be able to walk up to it, set the fence to 12-1/8", pass my wood through the blade, and get a 12-1/8" wide piece of wood."Quality" does not necessarily mean "best". That $3000 bandsaw is probably built to the same tolerances as the $800 bandsaw, but with a whole lot more power and capacity."Personally, I would rather aim for the tool I can afford that I think will carry me for a long time."Exactly. Choose a tool that will work for you for a long time. I'd associate that with quality. It need not be the best quality, but it should be quality. Veritas planes are quality. So are Sauer's.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
A "hobbiest" is not for hire, you say? In the past 25+ years of this "hobby" I've SOLD 99% of what I've made in my little "hobbiest" shop. In the past year ( and a slow one it was) I've built 5 major projects. Not bad when one only gets ONE DAY A WEEK to work in the shop,maybe. How many sawstops you know that would sit around idle for six out of seven days a week and still do the job? The TS I have, I've had since the 80s. It's gets a good "tune-up" as needed. It does what ever I need it to do. Does my "work" suffer because I don't have "Brand X" tablesaw? NO! I've learn HOW to use this saw, to get the most out of the saw. A tablesaw is just a TOOL to cut wood. It's up to the "operator" to learn HOW to get the most out of whatever saw they have. Suppose you go ask Mr. Sheraton or Mr. Hepplewaite what they think of "machine tooled" work. Last I heard, they WERE pros at this kind of work.
To Whitedog and Carya:I have never had an outburst to my stated contrarian views turn so personal and ugly. 45 years of work, education, sharing, teaching, selling and buying - you guys just blew over the top. Such hatred I have never seen.All I did was try to present a different idea or two. Try to spark a little conversation amongst those that might have had similar notions. Give and take, not pillage and rape.I hope no young person considering this profession or hobby reads your words - they will miss out on wonderful opportunities as they run the opposite way to avoid your narrow world view. To stifle as you propose, while you accuse me of stifling, goes well beyond a difference of opinion. But then, this is your forum, not mine. You have shown it true that you don't know what you don't know, and you don't care either. There was a time when Fine Woodworking meant just that. Inuit steam-bent boxes, Thonet's history, personal travails and trials and victories all graced the pages and filled many of us with passion. A passion beyond what the words could convey. A passion that inspires and supports and rewards everyday. I apologize. I'll not trouble you with my opinions again. Dave S
You can be as "contrary" as you like here. This forum "caters" to both the "Pros" and the "Hobbiest" out there. Now, while those saws you were talking about may be the greastest thing since the wheel came along, not all of us can afford to have that much cash tied up in one tool. And if it just sits around, waiting for a board to cut for weeks on end, it would be like buy a new Bently, just to drive in a parade once a year. There was no "hate" in either of my remarks to you, I don't operate that way. Each woodworker has their own way of doing things, mostly to develop skills to get to that next "level' that THEY want. To say that one is not a "Pro" because of what tools they have in their shop, well, that is not coing to "fly" in the "REAL WORLD". A pos saw may give someone a "rough cut", but one can learn HOW to refine the cut to make it as good as those high value saws. THAT is what is know as skill building. Would one put an apprentise on a Laguna saw the first day on the job?
On the contrary -- I believe yours is the narrow view. You stated that quality and serious woodworking can only be had with large, expensive machines. Reread your original posts and imagine, if you can, any perspective other than your own. Your view seems self-centered considering the vast array of woodworkers represented here and the work of which they are capable. You knew your 'opinion' would offend and you stated as much. You have spent 45 years trying to convince everyone else that yours is the only valid approach? Thwwwwppp!I hope newbies will read my post and be assured that this craft can very much be both affordable and enjoyable, and with quality. There are people here who boast about their 12" jointers and 7HP saws. You probably consider those to be useless little toys, however, they are more than most hobbyists need (by a long shot) and more than most own. Most of these excesses are only useful as bragging rights, imo. Your even bigger machines, paid for by someone other than yourself, are only useful for production (of something).
Dave:"I have never had an outburst to my stated contrarian views turn so personal and ugly."I was just following this thread over a cuppa tea and got to the above. Not sure where your comment comes from. Certainly, your admittedly contrarian views drew some strong responses; but, isn't that what contrarians do?I think you might have read a little too much into some of the replies.I only write to encourage you to continue to share your views - it's what makes Knots an interesting forum.Hastings
I think that it's all about where the individual woodworker draws the line. I view power tools as labour savers. I used to surface all of my stock by hand, but now I rely on my jointer and planer for that. I trust them to produce flat and parallel surfaces quickly and accurately. Now, the extreme is with a CNC, where it is fully automated. True, CNCs are beyond my space and budget allowments, but even if I could have one, I don't know if I'd want one. It doesn't suit the way I work. I like my work to show my hand work. It all depends on your tolerances. True, running a board over the TS or through the planer makes you a machine operator, but in most cases, the surfaces machined by these tools are further refined by hand. I'd sooner spend my time carving the wood, rather than thicknessing it. I use power tools, but all of my work bears witness marks of my hand work.Technology is good, as long as you trust it. If you don't trust it, it's useless.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
I will have to agree with Carya in his post to you. Your post might hold water presented at a commercial trade show where production deadlines are critical but.. you are addressing for the most part hobbyist here. Since you appear not to be connected to Hobbyist.. a shop full of machines that would cost $100,000 with bare minimums is not justifiable to a Hobbyist nor necessary.
An average hobbyist can out-fit a shop with acceptable quality machines for about $4000-$10,000 average. But.. even that might not be justified to the hobbyist as probably over 90% of average hobbyist may never build $10,000 worth of furniture so... the hobby is only justified in satisfaction derived from working the wood from rough to finish.
I see nothing on your web-site that if you put one man in your shop of "serious machines" that could not be built by one man in a shop such as mine with decent quality machines. You might save a week in the long haul but what is a week to a hobbyist with no dead-line? Nothing really!
As far as serious professional quality.. I consider Rob Millard to be a serious professional but he has a shop much smaller than mine and his machines are definitely what a professional production run company would not consider "serious". So... what defines a serious professional?
I personally believe a serious hobbyist can produce as good of quality and often more quality than a serious production shop simply because they don't have a deadline hanging over their head with pay-roll.. over-head.. etc. as a bottom line.
So.. I will sum up what most hobbyist are looking for is bang for the buck with reasonable quality in a range they can afford with absolutely no thoughts of serious production dead-lines. And.. I can assure you I don't spend the 8 hours a day in my shop as I do daily fiddling with endless adjustments to machines as you suggested.
Some may piddle more than necessary but.. they fall into the category of those I mentioned that will never justify sinking $10,000 into a functional shop.. much less excess of $30,000 or more to produce $4000 worth of furniture in a life-time. But... in their defense, the WW is not about the money.. it's about the satisfaction that comes from the end result regarless of the fact that don't drive Mercedes.
Regards...
Sarge..
Woodworkers' Guild of Georgia
Edited 8/14/2009 10:46 am ET by SARGEgrinder47
" personally believe a serious hobbyist can produce as good of quality and often more quality than a serious production shop simply because they don't have a deadline hanging over their head"Sarge:Obviously, you haven't met my wife!Hastings
Obviously not.. Mine has to come down and beg me to come up to shower to take her to dinner. A long time ago she pushed me on completing a project. I told her to come down to speed it up and handed her a sanding block to use on edge profiles on a hand cut molding. About an hour latter she tossed the sanding block on my work-bench.. headed up-stairs after commenting... "take your time".
I've pumped out 9 carcass pieces in under two years since I retired with #10 a few weeks shy so... not bad for someone without and clue but doesn't do too much procrastinating to "get er done". ha.. ha...Sarge..
Woodworkers' Guild of Georgia
About an hour latter she tossed the sanding block on my work-bench.. headed up-stairs after commenting... "take your time". That's hysterical, Sarge, too too funny. You are a smart (devious?) man, LOL!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Even and old blind squirrel gets an acorn every once in awhile. :>)
Sarge..
Woodworkers' Guild of Georgia
Ok, I'm a little late in joining this thread.Great post. It's all about perspective, though went farther than I would have. I don't agree with all of what you said, but you do get the point across. What equipment you can justify depends on what you are doing with it. A $$$$ sliding table saw would be rediculous for a model maker, as a premium dovetail saw would be for a construction worker. That said, you certainly don't need that sliding table saw or dovetail saw to do fine work. The dovetail saw is better suited for cutting joinery than a 22" rip saw, though you could probably, with more patience, complete the job. It comes down to suitability and HOW YOU WORK. When dovetailing, if you cut close to the line, then pare, why not make the cut with the 22" rip saw in a half a stroke versus eight strokes with the dovetail saw?Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
All right now you done it. You injected need into the requirements. I've got tools I in no way can truely justify based on need, but don't tell the wife. It's like when she said "you don't NEED a Harley!". I told her need ain't got nothin to do with it!
(of course this is all said with humor) Just in case she's listening! :-)I was married by a judge - I should have asked for a jury.George Burns
From a manufacturing standpoint you are correct to a degree. If there is a person with substantial experience on site to control the quality the product will be better. But there are other contributing factors to overall quality of a product not the least of which is material selection, and I'm talking just within the very general categories of steel, plastic, etc.
Also and most largely affecting quality is the company goal and subsequent process of achieving that goal. Grizzly and other manufactures number one goal is profit and to maximize profit you have to minimize overhead and costs as much as possible, and usually the first thing to go is better materials and then next to go is quality tooling, i.e opening up tolerances.
So yes a good QC person on site is a plus, but when that QC person is working within the boundries and parameters the company has laid out then the overall quality of the product definitely differs from company to company based on company philosophy.
I guess what I was thinking was if the company was a quality minded company and was trying to turn out quality too in "China" for instance, if they didn't have a dedicated man from the company on the spot, they probably wouldn't get that desired quality tool. It has been quite a while since I read this so the situation might well have changed somewhat since then.
The other thing I was thinking of regarding your post, You mentioned "maximizing profit." I would think that a lot of that depends on the time element. One company with a good reputation might start putting out junk with little expense and make a good profit for a while until their customers found out what they were doing, then their sales and profit would drop. It seems a company would have to have an element of consistency to sustain profitability.
Brian....
Just as a point of information I owned both having sold both to facilitate a cross country move and closing down my present "dream shop" to start a smaller version in our new digs nearer our grand kids in Ky. and we're in Mt. right now. That said, I had several Grizzly tools as well as the Robland X31 combination machine (which I really liked) and was Belgium made. In my opinion Grizzly by far exceeds in customer service hands down! The stigma of Taiwanese made machines in my opinion is way over blown at least from my experience with reliability and as I said customer service. The Robland too was virtually trouble free (though finicky to set-up and maintain so) but Laguna's CS is now and has been non-existent since the late 90's. Go with the Grizzly or Felder if you have deep pockets!Jon
Edited 8/15/2009 12:32 pm by Jon
Brian - The Laguna Platinum and the Grizzly G0690/G0691 are made in the same factory. The bigger Grizzly is on sale for $1295 shipped, and is getting extremely good comments from users. There's definitely a dust chute, a riving knife, and Grizzly's CS is very well established.
http://www.grizzly.com/products/10-3HP-220V-Cabinet-Table-Saw-with-Long-Rails-Riving-Knife/G0691
I purchased a "platinum" mortiser about 1 year ago from Laguna. Made in china. The quality was so bad and machining so sloppy it was unusable. The customer service was worse. Ended up, to make a long story short, costing time and money for nothing. I wouldn't touch this company with a 10 foot pole. There was a thread on Woodweb a while back, if it hasn't been deleted, with many comments similar to mine.
Dear robscaffe, I concur with you on the lack of quality of Asian built machines be they for the metal or wood workshops. They do not finish the machines properly. The local lads call them Taiwanese Terrors. Although we are getting gear from China now that is not much better. I have not long purchased a 10 inch table saw. It has a cast iron table which is very good. I have been contemplating getting a Dado set for it. But on investigation I discovered that the spindle which is either 5/8" or 16 mm is only long enough to take a saw blade.I have also noticed that the vee pulley on the blade shaft has moved slightly allowing the blade to wobble when fastened. I am at present investigating this problem. Fortunately I am a machinist by trade and have the gear to correct faults. The reason these machines sell of course is the price. So I am no different to anyone else. There is not enough room here for my adventures with these machine perhaps a book might suffice. Yours 4-6-4
I own several larger Grizzly machines and am completely sold on there tools and great customer service. Go with the green! Green is for GO BUY IT!
I'm not so sure about Laguna and Grizzly being made in the same factory. Laguna has recently begun to market machines from the far east, to go with their other machines that come from Bulgaria and Italy. I have always read the comments from folks that bash Laguna, and wonder what frame of mind they are in when they made the remarks. Tools rarely, if ever come out of the box ready to plug and play. And that is where the most likey problem originates. I recently took delivery of the Laguna Pro 6' sliding table saw. Nothing on this machine is like the Unisaw it replaced, other than the fact that both machines cut wood. Like the Unisaw, numerous adjustments were required before it was ready to cut wood. But after the necessary minor tweaks, it cuts like a precision tool. I have 2 Laguna machines in the shop, and looking to get another. So I have faith in their ability to provide a good machine. Good luck with your decisions. Try to find someone in your area with a similar machine, if possible, to get a first-hand look-see.
"I'm not so sure about Laguna and Grizzly being made in the same factory."Per the owner of Grizzly re: the Laguna Platinum TS and the Grizzly G0690/G0691: "What the Grizzly does not have is excessive hype and a high price tag...snip... Oh, by the way, it is the same saw coming from the same factory, made of the same components. However, we do have several engineers that check out these saws at the factory before they are shipped to our warehouses in the USA." http://www.forums.woodnet.net/ubbthreads/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=4203913&page=view=&sb=5o=&vc=1
Brian,
I own a Laguna Platinum Dovetail saw. I love it. I also looked at all the usual suspects when it came to purchase. Here's how I made my decision:
I had to have a riving knife.
The Grizzly G0652 was too big and I didn't like the mechanism for the blade up down (basically a couple of ground shafts). Also the G069x series was not available at the time.
New delta unisaw also not available
sawstop simply, way too expensive for me, a part time woodworker
PM2000 too bloody complicated under the hood. slice it any way you like, great saw, too complicated.
So I looked at the laguna line. The regular platinum (lower price) did not have the riving knife options so I got the dovetail.
The saw is wonderful. Great fence, great guts. It is not a piece of art. So the casting of the top is not perfect. It is flat and square but there are voids that can be seen in the miter slots (no affect on performance). But don't get me wrong, the saw is very well built and was very well dressed by the factory. I had to do no dressing or "touch up" on any of the parts when I got the saw. Customer service has been outstanding and I just recently purchased a 16" planer with the indexible insert cutting head.
The new Griz G069x series seems to be the lower grade laguna saw when you look at the manuals and the parts. I suspect they have worked out a way to get a riving knife on the saw. Nice saw indeed. Better price from Griz if it is the same saw.
I am very happy with my laguna and would purchase it again. But I would say you could be happy with either buy. I wrote more about my saw when I first got it so if you do a search you may find it as well.
Rob Kress
Rob,Just curiosity. Dovetail...Looked at Laguna's site and the saw looked like every other non sliding cabinet saw..more or less. What does the "dovetail" in the name relate to?Thanks,Boiler
Hand cranking mechanism for raise-lower.. tilt, Doc.
Regards for the day...Sarge..
Woodworkers' Guild of Georgia
Sarge,Interesting. What would I call the way I raise them on a Griz, Steely or a PM 66?
Would that be like me calling my old 1953 xcut DeWalt a.....
Top slicing linear wood fiber separator :-)Thanks
Doc
I'm going to guess rack and pinion, Doc. hee...
Have a good day on the left coast.. sun is shining here and I need some ebony. I either got to cut down an ebony tree or run to Woodcraft so.. I'm taking the latter mentioned to hotel happiness.
Regards...Sarge..
Woodworkers' Guild of Georgia
DeWalt a.....Top slicing linear wood fiber separator :-)
THAT WAS FUNNY!
Boiler,The dovetail series has a completely different trunnion assembly under the hood. You can only know this if you call and ask or get an account online (just submit info) and download the owners manual to look at the parts.The less expensive series has a single pivot point on which the blade assembly pivots up and down. The dovetail series has a complete plate assembly which rides on dovetails. This carriage holds the motor (of course), the blade, and the riving knife. The reason I like it is because it reminds me of my old metal milling machine table (which rides on dovetails) and it is monkey simple and beefy.Attached is the pdf of the owners manual. You can take a look for yourself. If you want to see the inside of the other laguna (and the grizzly for that mater) goto the laguna site and watch the videos on the platinum table saw. In the second video they take the top off. Crazy beefy trunnion.Rob Kress
Got it. Thanks
Boiler
Openning the door on both the PM2000 and new Unisaw at the local store, I was pleased to see that they both had a large flexible hose connecting an under table blade "shroud" to a cabinet exhaust port. That's the type of thing I'm looking for in dust collection, does the Laguna have it? Not a challenge, just a serious question. What did you mean by the PM being to complicated? Is it a problem and why. Personally, I'm leaning strongly toward a Powermatic (not because it is superior to all other table saws, just what I like!). Glad you are happy with your saw--I appreciate your input.Brian
Brian,No, my saw does not have a blade shroud for dust collection. And that wasn't a big deal for me. There are differing opinions about blade shrouds because they can get clogged with big pieces that slip passed the table insert. From my recent experience with my saw, I would say that this concern (scraps in a shroud) would not be a problem on my saw if it had a shroud. Even though I am not using a zero clearance insert, little pieces do not seem to migrate down in great numbers.Complicated.... That was just my judgment when looking at the parts exploded views in the manuals. I did not take a close first hand look at a PM2000 but I have a geometric mind and could get a really good idea of how it was put together from the paper. But just because I think it's complicated, that doesn't translate into poorly executed in actuality. In the end it will be your judgment call on that. I will hold to my statement though that the PM is definitely more complicated under the hood than my saw. Take that for what it's worth.Rob Kress
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