How did you determine the amount of hours to build a furniture?
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Replies
In "Murphy's Guide to Furniture Making", he suggests the formula of 2.3x the time available, or 4x the wife's expectations. ;-)
If you make a detailed plan of the sequence of actions or steps involved in the construction of the piece, and think about what's involved in each step, you can arrive at an estimate of the time involved. The accuracy of the estimate depends on the level of detail in the plan, however, and the degree to which you've anticipated the numbers of "oopses" and "oh, darns".
4x the wife's expectations
I don't know if you recall Sarge's post about his wife's "hurry up call" on a project for their house.
He suggested that she could help. She agreed so he put her to work sanding components.
After about 30 minutes, she quit and said, "Take your time."
Frosty
NCO smarts
His military time served him well. The best way to make objectives realistic is to coax the general into a little hands-on experience. ;-)
Wife HELPS decide to get a band saw
My partner, Queenmasteroftheuniversandbabbybunnytrainer, decided I didn't need a band saw. I "invited" her to help me do some resawing of wood for cabinet sides and drawer sides, by hand, using a two man saw that I made. She is usually game for this sort of thing, bless her heart she does actually like me for some weird reason an likes to help as long as she doesn't get ANY grease on her hands. We had a session or maybe two, bless her heart, and she told me a bandsaw would be a nice addition to the work shop and how soon could I place the order ? Come to think of it I seem to recall she called Laguna to ask for availability of the saw WE wanted. : ) PS: posting from the iPad. OH YAH! (Snoopy dance) Sweet ! Steve Jobs told me it would make me a better woodworker. Still waiting for all that to kick in but having fun until that glorious day. PPS: Moderator FWW staff there is an issue with using the iPad : can click into post header and type just fine but when clicking into body of the post I cannot get the curser there and must touch the source button above. Discovered that by accident.
PPPS: seems to be an issue with making paragraphs as well. I put in returns and your "machine" takes them back out.
Oh yah about how long to estimate
http://www.amazon.com/Working-Woodworking-Organize-Your-Business/dp/0942391675/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1273598165&sr=1-1
He has some good methods for that. Writes time for each type of step on cards or something and then for a new project goes back and pulls the cards related to the new project plus other considerations he talks abut in the book. At least I think that is where I read that. Me, I just figure it will take me half of for ever and enjoy the process.
Re; Wifely 'Take your time""
I told Sarge's story to my Nancy but she didn't call Laguna for me.
Roc - Please follow up your story by saying she gave Laguna HER credit card number.
Frosty
HER credit card nu
Sadly, nah dude nah. How ever she makes these meals that we share that are priceless. So I don't mind holding up my end of the plank to quote J. Krenov.
Still attempting to get paragraphs to show up in Knots using iPad. Here goes . . . . Did it work ?
Sorta kinda . . . But no not really.
Sadly, nah dude nah. How ever she makes these meals that we share that are priceless. So I don't mind holding up my end of the plank to quote J. Krenov.
Still attempting to get paragraphs to show up in Knots using iPad.
Here goes . . . .
Did it work ?
There that's better. First I took the post to Pages app and formatted it and pasted here. Didn't do all I put in. Then I entered a bunch of these "
" manually and that did it. Hmmmmmm give it time I suppose.
Oop now I am seeing "
". This is going to be "fun".
Sorry couldn't write the secret cool guy code, the knots machine ate it. Non computer science people with an iPad, you are on your own. My advice : take a rope and a machetie with you.
and good luck
Problems
I'm having problems of a different sort. When I reply to a post it takes about 5 tries before what I type "takes" and shows up on the screen. This is particularly frustrating as I am a 'hunt and pecker'. (No comments please.)
I'll start typing a few sentences (looking at the keyboard) and then look at the screen to find that I am at the bottom of a large blank screen. Persitence pays off but it is frustrating.
Jerry
hunting and pecking
To avoid the wink-wink sort of comments, it may help to er-ify both words. So, it becomes hunter-pecker or hunter/pecker, kinda like hunter/gatherer. The forum equivalent, I suppose, would be hunter/blatherer. ;-)
Hunter/?
Well then - I use The Columbus System: I seek and land!
Frosty
Hunter/?
Well then - I use The Columbus System: I seek and land!
Frosty
The Columbus System
Seeker/lander - good approach. Knowing you, though, I'm guessing that you are kinder to the natives than Mr. C was. ;-)
Jerry,
Personally I am a punter-hecker. This involves kicking an idea around but discovering, when taking a look at it again, that the various bootings have kicked it to death. One is filled with regret, remorse but some relief and issues the involuntary expletive, "Aw heck".
***
As to this typing lark - try typing your stuff into Notepad or similar basic word-processor/editor installed on most computers. These editors are much more forgiving than the Knots one. When finished (and spell-checked if the editor chosen is not quite as basic as Notepad) cut&paste your polemic into the Knots box. Here you can add italics and such, if wanted.
If you save the Notepad text in its own file (or just leave it up in its own window) you still have your text should the Knots editor box spit it out, gulp it down or otherwise lose it.
Saying that, I seem to have no technical problems with the Knots editor as some lads do. Software can be flakey and quite particular about what it will eat. I have IE8 on Windows 7 and it seems happy with the Taunton website and every other I've been to so far.
Lataxe
I don't have any problem with an original post, it is just when I reply to a post such as yours. I tried to start the above sentence with "I" and nothing happened. I tried it 5 or 6 more times. No result.
So, just for the heck of it, I clicked on Source (I have no isea what that stands for) and everything worked as it should. The other items such as Bold, Italics, Underline and
cross-outwork fine.Thanks for the suggestion on Notepad.
Frosty
I take it that you don't plan to watch any FWW videos. Good old Steve Jobs has decreed that the iPad will not run Flash.
Track your hours
In addition to mentally building the piece to gauge the time it will take, keep a log of the time it actually takes. That way you'll know down the road exactly how much time is needed for a dovetailed drawer, a turned leg, a newport shell, the roof of the sistine chapel, etc.
This has helped me estimate the time it'll take to finish a project. I also adhere to the rule of multiplying the estimated time by at least 2 for the real time.
Professionals
I don't know how professional furniture builders estimate man hours (which is what you're talking about) but I can tell you how contractors do it.
The best source is historical records from your own crews on your own jobs.
Building is classified into different tasks, usually using the Construction Specification Institute divisions, a set of 16 divisions and sub divisions that classifies everything from overhead and drawings to final paint.
During a job, you have your crews record their time on each task, and each task is classified by their CSI division. At the end of the job, you divide out the man hours by the number of units of that task, and you arrive at a man hour per unit that your crews do.
The next time you bid a job with that task, you simply figure out how many units it is, and multiply.
The next best guide is a commercial book. RS Means sells several guides that lists man hours per CSI division.
I don't know if the furniture industry has a similar guide, but I would be surprised if they didn't. In fact, if they don't, that would be an opportunity. :)
People have been building houses, warehouses and Windsor chairs for centuries. How long a given task takes is a matter of record by now, so I would start searching for the guide.
The only caution is that if you're not an expert at a given task, or if you don't have the appropriate equipment, you probably won't keep up with RS Means. The flip side of that is that if RS Means says it's going to take 1.25 hours per square foot, and you take eight minutes, it means you've left something out. Don't ask me how I know that. :)
Good luck!
Jammer, I bid the same way
When bidding a house or a remodel I pick a spread sheet from a job I've already done that is the most similar and then edit that using historical data. I do have to break things down like lumber and concrete for an accurate take off. There are per square foot formulas for most construction related cost items. My cost breakdown spreadsheet have almost one hundred line items to choose from, so I don't miss much.
When bidding cabinets I use a per lineal foot formula plus extras. But you can just figure your material and multiply by three or four.
To bid furniture? I would figure materials then guess at how much the client would be wiling to pay?. Or you could wait until it's done and figure your labor then. It would vary widely. Unless you are producing a product line and have built it before you'll just have to guess at the labor hours.
Most of the work I've done lately, I charge an hourly rate with a rough estimate of how long it will take. Most people are fine with that as long as you aren't napping at the job.
Bret
Never
When I first started bidding, I used square foot formulas for about a week. They gave false impressions to ad calls, and I stopped using them. I haven't used them since.
I started using historical data sometime around 1991, and after that I learned never to open my mouth without a full line item bid behind me. If it's a real lead, they'll wait for a line item bid, and a real lead is worth the effort. If they won't wait for a line item bid, they're not a lead I want. One of the best qualifiers I ever figured out.
There's no way I would ever bid anything based on material alone.
You may have misinterpreted
I cost out portions of the job based on known per square foot formulas such as flooring or roofing plus known waste factors as well. Those are line items on the cost breakdown. How else would you do it? I would never bid a house per square foot without studying the plans and specifications, taking a careful look at the site and then doing a thorough cost analysis first.
I owned and operated a custom cabinet shop for twenty years. I had various prices per lineal foot for the cabinets based on the style and wood selection with set add on costs for extras. My cabinet design software also figured the cost and material estimate which I always cross referenced with.
If you're just starting out and doing most of the work yourself then the materials x 3 or 4 works OK, you would quickly learn if you were off the mark. But if you are running a big payroll you had better be more accurate than that.
I run things a bit looser than I used to these days. I've downscaled hugely. I no longer have any employees, It's just me. I'll work up a bid if the client wants me to but I prefer to just work by the hour.However, I do install a lot of cabinets and that's piece work. My gross sales are a small fraction of what it used to be but so is my stress level.
Bret
I am retired and have no time limit! (Except for life as such) That is great.. But I like to move onto other things to do.. I love making anything.. Not so fond of finishing it!
I guess that makes me a Not-So-Fine-Woodworker... I do finish the structure in wood.. but all that Oil and stain and whatever...... After..
a,
although your question is unelaborate and brief, for me, it is an important one. the only time i need to have an answer for it is when $ is in the offing. then i mentally go through each and every step of the process and add up the hours on a piece of paper. usually the fact that i've forgotten something comes up later and i'll add that to the list. if a particular aspect of the job might have hidden potential for pain-in-the-assness, i'll tack on accordingly. recently i and a buddy built a very large/heavy drop-box for the local video store. as we were "docking" the behemoth up to the metal drop shoot we shimmied when we should have shook and completely shattered the 300$ window at the front of the store. that's sort of what i mean about unforseen stuff.
whatcha' makin'?
eef
eef,
" i mentally go
eef,
" i mentally go through each and every step of the process and add up the hours on a piece of paper. usually the fact that i've forgotten something comes up later "
That's what I do, too. There was the time I mentally "built" only half of a partner's desk in figuring the estimate. Naturally, I got the job, and then learnt an expensive lesson about checking your work.
Ray
ray,
that mistake rears its head, most often, when i have to figure things as doubles and only account for singles. yeah, this gets expensive as only 1/2 of the lumber gets figured. one other pesky version of this is not calculating doubles and subsequently cutting all one's parts too short.
ah, well-more mulch for the garden, ay?
eef
experience is usually a good factor in being able to estimate a new construction or whatever one has to do
ron
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