Affordable sharpening system – stropping after 4000??
Benvoli0
| Posted in New To Woodworking on
Hi there
I’ve been looking at sharpening systems and I’m quite new to woodworking. As I’m still a teenager I’m on a budget.
My thinking is that I can get a 250/1000 and a 4000 grit waterstone from Rutlands for less than £50 (bout $80??)
but the cherry on the polishing cake that is the 8000 stone, is in itself is about £80 alone. (And the 6000 stone is a similar jump in price.)
My question is this: Can I get away with stones up to 4000 then can I strop with an abrasive compound after that for the same effect of the 8000 grit water stone??
If so, which compound is good to use? Will Red Rouge be too fine after a 4000 stone??
Many thanks
Ben
Replies
And We Are Back
8000 grit is about 3 micron in the diamond paste so what ever you can find in the next size larger , say 3.5 to 4 micron is going to be roughly 6000 grit which would be a very useful grit to use. I think the general consensus around here is 6000 grit gets your tools plenty sharp for general wood working and 8000 or above is mostly used just because we like to look at the pretty polished edge.
Here is the link I promised
https://www.finewoodworking.com/how-to/article/sharp-and-sharper.aspx
I no longer use the maple strop but I did for a while to explore that option.
It works.
I have gone hog wild on sharpening stones so I just use those now.
I am including a couple of photos : one is my maple strop, which is in between the leather strop with the screws in it and the red 1000 grit King brand water stone. The other photo is my current stable of sharpening stones. Hmmm actually I have added one more stone since that photo was taken; a 120 grit white Shapton. It is the larger white stone with the 120 printed on it. A must have for me. I don't hollow grind so I don't want to wait long to reshape an edge. I recommend the Shaptons in the Pro series. They are worth the money when you get around to getting some more. (money and stones).
Curious
Roc,
"I no longer use the maple strop"
What made you change your mind; what is a replacement?
I have been plannig to give diamond paste/maple a try (not that I 'need' it), but maybe skipping it would not be a big loss. Actually the green stuff works on maple just fine too.
Best wishes,
Metod
I hear angels sing while I sharpen
Hi Metod,
Sorry to put this answer off . . . anyway you asked :
"I no longer use the maple strop"
What made you change your mind; what is a replacement?
I have been plannig to give diamond paste/maple a try (not that I 'need' it), but maybe skipping it would not be a big loss. Actually the green stuff works on maple just fine too.
I stopped using the maple strop for two reasons. Maybe three :
See the photos; I like my water stones because I can wet them and if I slide them around a little 'till they suck down on that neoprene mat like crazy. As long as they are wet but not sloppy or too dry they really stay put. Sounds like a fine line of wetness but it is easy to maintain. (the lightest mist of water on the back of the mat sticks it to the counter)
I work right on the edge of the counter; the rest of the mat is just to protect the counter from wear and wet stuff. Putting the maple on a dry spot wouldn't work for me.
I don't like or need any kind of "stone holder". Also since I like to use both sides of my stones, one side extremely flat for finish blades and blade backs and the other side slightly less than extremely flat because it gets used on the radiused blades for coarser work. The stones that are glued to a wooden holder I get less useful surface out of so I tend toward stones with no glued on wooden holder.
The maple is out of place on a wet counter with the neoprene so it is an extra futz to deal with it.
The diamond paste is like grease. That gets on the water stones or on my hands and I need a rag to clean it off.
So . . . until I got the 8000 Norton stone I had the maple and diamond paste. After I got the 8thou I never looked back. Now I got the Shaptons and practically hear angels singing while I sharpen.
Well Eva Cassidy anyway (she is on the stereo right now "Ain't No Sunshine") she has blond hair and is close enough for me.
http://www.amazon.com/Time-After-Eva-Cassidy/dp/B00004SYOP/ref=sr_1_6?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1359249306&sr=1-6&keywords=eva+cassidy
Oh but wait, another angel has put in her appearance Brandy Moore "I'd Rather Go Blind"
http://www.amazon.com/Real-Good-Love/dp/B0059H0G58/ref=tmm_other_meta_binding_title_0?ie=UTF8&qid=1359249458&sr=1-2
Whooooweee . . . Lord . . . where was I ?
So was that three reasons ? Lets see : maple block doesn't play well with water, greezzy poo poo on the blades and I got 8000 stones (and now 16000).
Yep that about covers it. If I ever get all super wild and take up carving, which I look forward to some day, I will busss out the diamond paste again I am sure.
PS: just one more angel : Louise Hoffsten "I Just Want to Make Love to You". Woo makes me quake. I gotta go take a shower.
http://www.amazon.com/Knackebrod-Blues-Louise-Hoffsten/dp/B0001Z498I/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1359250549&sr=1-1&keywords=louise+hoffsten
Some how we missed your post
Lately I have just been looking at a list of recent replies and not digging around in the actual threads so just now I stumbled on your new thread.
What I would recommend , using the rules you have set up, is to take a piece of hard maple or similar close grained, straight grained wood about one inch thick roughly and plane it very flat. Then forget about the red rouge or any of the other jewelry polishing cakes. From experience I find they just don't cut fast enough. Instead get your self some diamond paste similar in grit to the 6000 or 8000 stones. I don't recall the diamond grit equivalent. Then apply small amounts of this paste as needed to the surface of your wood block.
This is stropping but is a better way to go about it than a leather strop. Leather is OK for carving chisels but it is a mistake to sharpen plane blades this way; it dubs the edge.
There is a very good article using this stropping method and comparing all the different sharpening systems. I will attempt to find it and send the link in another post here
Wood Working Budget ?
Not a trade for budgets but I understand. I use a slow speed grinder with a norton wheel on one side and a felt wheel for the green rogue on the other. Also have an India stone (black) never needed anything else. A bit of an investment but should cover all the bases.
SA
Sharpening on the cheap
4000 leaves a pretty keen edge on its own, you can go finer, but it isn't essential for most operations. You can always make an edge sharper and sharper, but at some point (sooner rather than later) it doesn't make the tool work any better.
If I was going to outfit a sharpening set up on the cheap, I would forgo the coarse grit waterstones and save up for a slow speed grinder. Coarse grits are used for setting the main/primary bevel, and you don't need to do that frequently, only after many, many honings, or if the primary bevel gets really messed up (dropped, hit a nail, etc). To set the primary bevel, you can use sandpaper on a flat surface, a belt sander, or someone else's slow speed grinder. Sandpaper on a flat surface is also a cheap and quick way for flattening backs of chisels and the back of a plane blade near the cutting edge.
For routine sharpenings a 800/4000 or 1000/6000 combination stone is a great value. The coarse side will take out the scratches from the sandpaper or grinder, as well as minor nicks in the blade. The fine side will set the secondary or micro bevel. As long as the edge isn't too dinged up the fine side can be used until the secondary bevel gets too big to hone quickly. A quick touch up on the secondary bevel should take 30 - 60 seconds.
Some people use sandpaper rather than stones. It is cheaper in the short run, but personally I think it is a pain in the tail feathers. I always end up catching the paper with the tool corners and shredding it.
I haven't tried it, but the diamond paste on maple idea sounds like a good way to get the benefit of 8000 stone without the cost if you need/want an edge that sharp, carving and paring come to mind.
Roc,
Leather strops can dub an edge - but they do not have to, when used well (or I would not use them). I have no (yet) experience with diamond paste - it should work faster and better than, say, chromium oxide). However, I get a noticeable sharper edge by following 8000 with some stropping. Shaving test does not point out the difference, but slicing a piece of stropping leather (I use horsebutt) clearly does.
The question is, what is the practical value of such extra sharpness. Are you back at '8000 level' only after a few inches of planing? With the leather test, it should be easy to gather some empirical evidence. Once I get interested enough (one of those existencial urges...) I'll find out. It is only a few minutes avay - less than typing this note.
Best wishes,
Metod
I like a nice butt as well as the next person . . . but
Hi Metod,
Nice to hear from some body. The people I been answering are pretty quiet. It is sunny and warm here, relatively speaking, so if it is the same where they are maybe they are outside enjoying the sun or their families. I hope.
Cuts butt. (horse butt strop leather). Yeeeaaassss but keep in mind what you and I want to cut with this edge we are speaking of is a relatively hard material. Obviously wood in particular.
That changes every thing. Suddenly edge geometry plays a significant part. The reason being, the wood flexes only to an extremely limited degree. If the cutting angle is wider than intended , as you know I am sure, at the very least the effect is more horse power needed to push the edge through the wood, see the bevel down edge in my magic marker scratchings . . .
and at the more detrimental end of the range the wider cutting angle with effectively a back bevel when on a bevel up blade (under side of the blade) causes the actual cutting edge to ride on the wood surface and not penetrate as deeply as it could if the blade back (under side) was indeed FLAT.
I like to fool around cutting hair and paper and leather with a sharp edge but when it comes to cutting very hard wood such as my much harped about purple heart and bubinga , with the blade held at a fixed angle by the hand plane, then these infinitesimal differences in blade geometry make a very noticeable difference in how well and how LONG the blade will cut as it dulls.
Speaking of a blade that is some what dulled but still cutting but riding up and chattering unless I hold it down with my body weight . . .
During the initial passes of a blade that is properly sharpened for purple heart I can just push the finish plane with the rear handle and not hold down the front with the knob (obviously I don't plane like this it is just for an example). The sharp edge pulls the front of the plane down against the wood. As the blade dulls then it is "a good idea" to hold down on that front knob to prevent chatter. As the blade further dulls it takes more downward pressure and finally it stops cutting and I find myself advancing the blade (well I used to until I got smart) and then the plane would start cutting again. At this point the plane is practically teetering on the blade edge but cutting. With a dubbed / stropped edge I would effectively be starting out with a partially "dulled" blade.
. . . under magnification the blade geometry including the wear area that has caused the "dulled" edge is the same shape as if I had stropped it even being careful to keep the back of the blade flat on the strop. See the drawing of strop material expanding upward as it leaves the underside of the blade and licking upward to dub the edge.
Yes there is a larger area from wear than the strop effected area but the geometry is the same and that is what maters on the hard stuff.
For this reason, for me, SHARPENING a plane blade or chisel with a flat back means removing this dubbed area whether it is dubbed from planing wood or from a mistake in my sharpening technique. I "cut" the metal away until there is only the flat surface of the back. Yes I could ruler it or strop it and get to the actual edge and make it "sharp" again but it would only cut soft stuff well not the hardwood.
Part of the reason stropping may be helping you is it removes the foil "wire" edge from our blade edges. This can be quite a tenacious bit of foil to remove from the A-2 steel blades. It just hangs on for ever because it is tough as well as hard.
I prefer to spend more time on the fine stone (4000) and on the extra fine stone (8000) going back and forth honing one side then the other (at this point one light stroke on each side alternating ) until the wire edge comes off on the stone. I can see it happen it is black chunks that are elongated rather than just black powdered metal.
Why the stropped edge may cut soft materials well . . . see the last photo. The leather or paper or hair conforms to the blade geometry. Also shown is one reason it isn't going to do well in harder material that cannot easily mush to fit the dubbed blade.
After all of that scientific hot air . . . a lighter moment . . .
I hate to admit it but I can't stop my self, usually , from doing this . . .
after I have washed off the blade in clean hot water and dried it I strop the finished edge a couple of times on my bare palm. You know . . . just to align those last few stray molecules of metal.
: )
Wow, roc
Thank you roc for kind words.
If I'd ever run for an office (being dead first would be the first step ...) I would like to have you as my campaign manager (providing that you'd be running for a higher office at the same time).
Maybe the spam filter will not block me this time. It's worth a try.
Best wishes,
Metod
Clearance angle
roc,
Since the bevel on a bevel down plane is just a clearace angle, is the poorer result of planing purpleheart -I have never used it- resulting from adding the "secondary" bevel to the bevel side due to fiber springback? Otherwise that bevel would seem to support the edge better, making it more wear resistant. If the fibers were springing back, it would tend to push the blade out of the wood, thus requiring more clearance angle. I typically don't use the harder tropical woods, so I was curious as to the reason.
"Technique" verses Geometry
Hi Hackmeister,
Since the bevel on a bevel down plane is just a clearance angle, is the poorer result of planing purple heart -I have never used it- resulting from adding the "secondary" bevel to the bevel side due to fiber spring back? Otherwise that bevel would seem to support the edge better, making it more wear resistant. If the fibers were springing back, it would tend to push the blade out of the wood, thus requiring more clearance angle. I typically don't use the harder tropical woods, so I was curious as to the reason.
Well let me tell you about purple heart . . .
Spring back ? Yah about like the spring back one gets when planing an inch thick piece of steel. I am exaggerating but not by much. Hard dense stuff. Makes maple and oak seem like a vacation after a table top of purple heart.
As far as bevel DOWN on PH that happens mostly planing cross grain or diagonal to the grain. For the flattening and finish planing that is all best done bevel UP. Unless you want to invest in some specialty equipment; see bellow.
To keep from tearing out was the challenge with the PH, even in really straight rather plane grain. The only way I could win with a bevel DOWN was to back bevel to the equivalent of at least 55° bed angle and 65° was better.
There wasn't an issue with blade support but the more clearance the longer the blade cuts a significant curl. So with a lower angle bevel up plane there is a trade off which is less involved steep angle blade sharpening ( compared to back beveling a bevel down ) to prevent tear out but sharpening more often. Man when she gets dull that's all she wrote.
There was no steep angle frog from Lie-Nielsen when I was buying my planes and learning this and I was unaware of the Old Street steep bed angle bevel down planes which would have been great to have.
I recommend getting some PH and just practicing and experimenting until you can get a perfect surface. The stuff is unforgiving. You have got to have your sharpening technique nailed or it lets you know. No question.
I hate to even use the word technique. That conjures images of holding ones tongue just right or putting some spin on the blade using some "knuckle ball" grip.
Nonsense.
Put the blade in the jig, at the required angle. sharpen the damned thing and plane the wood. There is no actual technique but the angles have to be RIGHT.
Period.
Whew
Roc,
I expected
some quacko-transcendental reasons for your choice, but they are all pragmatically grounded.
For sort of the same reasons I converted my water stones into oilstones. No stone holders, keep them handy under my bench. No water driping. Mess-less too. A squeegee to clean, and a roll of institutional (read: not facial quality) tissue at hand to wipe off the squeegee. Chromium compound (it works on a maple block just fine too) and untreated leather strop work well enough for me.
Maybe I am too focused on the 'good enough' aspect - or too lazy to try the latest on the market.
Best wishes,
Metod
Whewieee
>quacko-transcendental reasons for your choice, but they are all pragmatically grounded.
For sort of the same reasons I converted my water stones into oilstones. No stone holders, keep them handy under my bench. No water driping. Mess-less too. A squeegee to clean, and a roll of institutional (read: not facial quality) tissue at hand to wipe off the squeegee. Chromium compound (it works on a maple block just fine too) and untreated leather strop work well enough for me.
Maybe I am too focused on the 'good enough' aspect - or too lazy to try the latest on the market.<
Metod,
: )
quacko !
quacko ?
. . . quacko . . .
Well I was going to transcend that shot across the bow of the good ship Sweetness and Light (previously christened Occam's Razor, and before that had gone through a bad patch as Cut The Crap) but since it is pretty slow around here what with all the new people's replies being blocked by the blind sentry with the machine gun (spam trap).
I may as well return by sending a few through the long quiet tubes just for old times sake. Nothing serious you understand . . .
How do you keep your stones in place while using oil ?
> squeegee<
hmmmm . . . I can't imagine how the swarf fragments from the squeegee improves the cutting ability of the stones or the sharpness of your edges.
Could you enlighten me ?
Ah . . . it must have something to do with the addition of the fibers from the tissue. I had forgotten about that additional item.
>no water dripping<
Has it been determined a few drops of water on the floor constitutes a toxic waste hazard ? I missed that one. I must be immune. Bob . . . the thought of recommending using water for so long to all those newbies and I didn't even realize . . . gosh.
> squeegeeing oil (drip free ?)<
How do we go about making our oil drip free ?
Is it a gradual training thing like putting the can and squeegee on a paper every time they look like they are going to let go or do we send them out to be "obedience trained". Sounds complicated. Please elaborate. I may be getting too old or lazy for all that.
My shop floor is that ultra smooth kind of concrete so it is slick enough with out a young oil can squirting all over the place looking for a fire hydrant.
Ohhhh and that is all I need . . . if I were to bring a can of smelly "oil" (what is that stuff you use ? Kerosene, Marvell Oil ? It all puts off some semi toxic junk that gets in the sinuses . . . yah I won't be using that in Queenmasteroftheuniverseandbabybunnytrainer's kitchen like I do the water. Yah she has enough to do keeping cooking oil and grease off her floor without following me around with windex and a rag. I know, I know dripless "drip free" I will tell her. She isn't going to buy it though. How indeed do we keep it from dripping. Dripless oil . . . sounds like grease to me and we know I don't care for the diamond grease getting on every thing .)
>Chromium compound<
Do you mean Semichrome
http://www.amazon.com/Restoration-Center-SimiChrome-Polish-1-76/dp/B000FGICHM/ref=sr_1_1?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1359491831&sr=1-1&keywords=simichrome+polish
or the white abrasive for jewelry
http://www.amazon.com/White-Polishing-Buffing-Compound-Chrome/dp/B004IJTY7Y/ref=sr_1_fkmr2_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1359491737&sr=8-1-fkmr2&keywords=hard+white+chrome+compound
. . . no I think you mean this stuff
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_fb_0_11?url=search-alias%3Dindustrial&field-keywords=green+strop+compound&sprefix=green+strop%2Cautomotive%2C503
I have used a fair amount of all of those . . . nearly non existent effect on A-2 steel when used on a hand stop. Even on my Swiss army knife, which is pretty soft, just laughs when I try it on that. Green was best but still . . . not great until we put it on a power buffing wheel . . . then . . . we get to beath it all in . Abrasive in my lungs I can do without not to mention the dust falling back on my wood I am attempting to plane.
This here's the stuff
http://www.amazon.com/Herbs-Yellowstone-Honing-Stropping-Compound/dp/B008PES2JY/ref=sr_1_1?s=industrial&ie=UTF8&qid=1359491986&sr=1-1&keywords=herb%27s+strop+compound
Herb's . . . (not sure what's in it but it works (if you like all the crumbling and trying to scrape at the block to get it to come off onto the strop . . . which I don't . . . so I just use a finer stone of the same or finer ilk . . . which I do like.
quacko ? well if you mean . . .
quacko = been there, read the literature, jumped through the hoops, paid my dues, got the T-shirt and got too fat to wear the T-shirt . . . then
quack quack
It's Magic
I missed this the first time through
>untreated leather strop<
The "UN" being the key.
: )
Similar to my final "strop"on the palm thing I mentioned that I do.
Don't you agree ?
The magician says :
"Nothing up my sleeve . . . nothing on the metal or on the strop . . .
AND YET ladies and gentleman . . .
the edge gets sharper.
It's MAGIC !
Thank you, thank you
no, no don't applaud
no please
(just throw money)
no, no you are too kind.
That's all for this evening.
Be sure to tell your friends and . . .
keep believing in . . .
THE POWER OF MAGIC !
PS: On the third read through
I see I have blundered. You meant combine chrome stuff on the leather that has no previous treatment. Softening treatment ?
I'm sticking with magic and a bare palm.
PPS: you know . . . you did get me to thinking . . .
bear with me here . . .
what if one DID use just a bare strop where the last bits of the wire edge has come off on the leather for years, SEASONED, and so the final edge is being BURNISHED with it's own material
like burnishing a planed surface by grabbing a hand full of shavings and rubbing for that final luster , often used when no finish is going to be applied . . . see Krenov.
?
I think you and I have hit on the final IT when it comes to strops and the ultimate in sharpening paraphernalia
Of coarse one would have to have a srtop for each blade material and the really cool guys (women won't have patience for this sort of bolder dash and are probably down in their shops right now making stuff instead of reading about it ) . . .
nah the REAL cool guys will have to have a strop for each heat batch of blades because the hardness and alloys are bound to vary a critical amount to render the do all strop useless against the harder blades.
Lets collaborate on writing an article for FWW.
What do you say ?
Goodest Grief
Roc,
You are nano-overanalyzing
. I too would have more days like this should my (dear) wife not have kept me on a short leash...
My stones do not slide around the bench because I tell them not to. Even a stone remembers something that you have repeated at least 5,879,352,5117,438 times.
Actually, I replaced the original wooden bases with ones that allow for 1/2" border around the stones. The stones are recessed snugly about 1/8". They do not slide much - I can always clamp them (with the benchdogs - they happen to work with the boards in general...).
I did attach (caprpet tape) small pieces of rubber drawer liner to my DMT diamond plates for more friction.
When done honing, I squeegee the swarft of the plates/stones. I wipe the swarf from the squeegee with some paper tissue.
By 'untreated leather' I meant 'leather without stropping compund'.
The compound that I use is from Woodcraft (it seems to be the same, judging from the box) that you pointed to on Amazon. Thirs is 6 oz, mine was larger, maybe some 20 oz.
After #800, just one stroke on a strop shows the surface difference - from dull to shiny, be it for O1 or A2 (that's the two types that I have).
One of my water-gone-oil stones (Kitayama? from Japan Woodworker) was listed as #12000. I notice that the difference between #8000 (King brand) and #12,000 is not as noticeable as the fifference between #12000 and stropping (compound or plain). It makes me think that Kitayama must be closer to #10,000.
Yes, water is cleaner (and less expensive) than petrolium sfuff. Considering the actual amounts, I do not worry. I believe that time doe me more harm, and we should have some warnings posted on every timekeeping device. Most folks get demised before a dose of 100 years
.
Best wishes,
Metod
I use sandpaper
I bought a thick piece of glass and I use sticky backed sandpaper attached to the glass for my sharpening. The glass is always flat and when the paper wears out I toss it. I use the round 6 inch sticky backed discs.
re: affordable sharpening system
I tried to post a reply to this plea for info, but the Tauntonists wouldn't accept the post.
Sorry buddy -mpt my fault
If you want to scope out the essence of my post, google scare^ sharp on he intewab...
Cheap/ and portable.
if you are flumoxed, send me a private email.
Eric
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