Replies

1. 
   David_Fineman | May 29, 2000 03:36am | #1

   *
   Mr Stephen

   Once you get the hang of your CAD program, you will find that it saves you substantial amounts of time.

   First, you'll never have to erase again, which is quite time consuming; instead you'll delete a line, which takes a second.

   Second, you'll never need to re-draw anything; for the sake of convenience, you will no doubt do some re-drawing, but you don't have to, and eventually you will become more and more adept at re-using pieces of a drawing to avoid re-drawing almost altogether. Once you draw a shape, you can reuse it, either in the same drawing or another. E.g., have you tried mirror images yet? A super feature in woodworking. By not having to re-draw, I mean re-using things not necessarily exactly, but with some changes in some cases. As an example, think of drawing a series of drawers. With a pencil, you draw them all. In CAD, you draw one, copy and paste it, then modify it into all the others. (When did you ever want to make a chest with the drawers all the same height?) An integral step in this re-use is moving the reference point in the thing you want to copy, which lets you move the item to an exact position; that means your drawers will line up exactly where you want them.

   Third, greater accuracy will get you faster designs. You cannot draw a line perfectly with a pencil from an intersection, and if you draw enough such lines, you will wind up with an inaccurate drawing. But in CAD, you always draw a line perfectly from an intersection, and therefore lines that are supposed to meet, do meet.

   Well, that's a sampling of what I have to say about CAD. Although I have no experience with the CAD program you're using, its maker is among the best. I've used AutoCAD, which is a large, expensive and excellent CAD program, but that was when I was paid to do engineering stuff by a company that could afford AutoCAD. Now, I use TurboCAD, which is a lot cheaper, and which does everything I ever need to do in woodworking. I recently upgraded to a 3D version of TurboCAD, but I haven't really used the 3D capabilitis yet, but I suspect the 3D capabilities will permit the production of really good renderings to give to shop people, customers, publications, and so on. (I'm not a professional woodworker, just a home shop amateur, so I'm only guessing that you might want good 3D renderings.)

   Finally, once you get a good fist with your CAD program and start using it a lot, you will wonder how you ever thought it wouldn't save you lots of time.

   Good luck with it.

   David Fineman
   Pittsburgh, PA
   [email protected]

1. 
   Jim_Walters | Nov 09, 2000 10:56pm | #2

   *Don,There's no comparison. I have the latest issue of turbo cad and I design/draw in 3d. If I took the time I could create an idea into a photographic image. I am still learning, but it's the greatest tool I've ever had, the difference between a nailgun and a hammer. I build a lot of custom stuff and now instead of trying to explain a 2d pencil drawing to a client who has no idea what they're looking at, I 3d a 5 minute sketch and I'm able to show them exactly what it will look like.

1. 
   Woodrow_Butcherski | Feb 13, 2001 01:29am | #3

   *2 years ago, after reading some software reviews by woodworkers, I bought Quick Cad. It's Auto Cad's stripped down version for $200.00. It did take alittle learning, but I can whip up a cabinet drawing and print out a 2D rendering in no time. Well worth the money. I then put the panel sizes into a program I download from the Wood Magazine site to optimize panel cutting. Again, saving me mega time and materials. Thank you Bill Gates.

1. 
   Old_Peculiar | Feb 28, 2001 05:37pm | #4

   *I have to agree with Mr. Fineman, Mr. Walters, and Mr. Butcherski. I use AutoCAD for just about any project I am going to attempt - woodworking or otherwise. Besides the clear advantages of drafting 2D sheets, CAD can be used to build 3D models. The ability to create a 3D model of the design has many advantages, not the least of which is the ability to then create construction drawings from the model. I also use it to generate presentation renderings, which give the client a good idea of the final product, before any work is started.An example of these renderings is at the following address (on this forum), along with more self-indulgent words from me, speaking high praise for AutoCAD! :-) Old Peculiar "Anybody have a reason NOT to use Red Elm?" 2/27/01 10:54am

1. 
   David_A._Brown | Jun 17, 2001 09:22pm | #5

   *I've taught Autocad, both 2D and 3D, for several years. I've also used it myself quite a bit, primarily to generate 3D Views of my design ideas. I can show others my ideas, without actually having to build the thing. Then again, I can draw. In fact, I teach that too. If you're any good at drawing, say, a quick perspective and some rough plans, perhaps on graph paper, they can easily do the job your CAD drawing will, and be created in much less time. Need a change? Pencil does erase, and often it's only a small part of the drawing you need to erase anyway. You can do that in less time than it takes to boot up the computer. If you need to make more complicated changes, use a translucent paper like velum or tracing paper and simply trace over your old drawing, making the changes as you go.If, professionally, you have to have accurate patterns, scale drawing, etc, and provide them to clients or contractors, then go CAD. Personally, I haven't relied on CAD for anything in the last 3 years, and yet have still been productive.All my students are trained in AutoCAD, and have it installed at their own workstations in their studio. They can use it anytime and for however long they need it. Free. But then in my furniture design workshop I'll ask them to generate a perspective sketch of their idea. Those that can do it by hand will sit there and do it in 5 minutes. The CAD-only kids will disappear for a couple of hours, eventually returning with a plotted wireframe view of their design, 3D, but not always in perspective.I give the sketchers more points for greater productivity. Once you get fluent on any CAD program, you can probably compete well in my class. Problem is, you'll always have to have a working computer handy. There are no computers in my workshop.Dave

2. 
   David_A._Brown | Jul 05, 2001 02:18pm | #6

   *Since my last comment in this thread was "There are no computers in my workshop.", I find it ironic that my boss has asked me to write the spec for a computer to be installed in the university workshop. So I'm thinking about eliminating the keyboard altogether since there's no eliminating the dust in the shop. And I'll recommend a 17" flat LCD touchscreen monitor if I can find one with bulletproof glass. Wood sometimes flies at high speed through the air, ya know. Sure, we could hide a computer behind a cupboard door in the back office, but I prefer any tool in the shop to be closest to where I'd likely want to use it at.This PC will mostly serve as a network terminal. AutoCAD will be installed, but simply to allow a student to load up his/her drawings (from their studio PC) to show. When on "turn in your drawings" day, a student claims "It's in my computer", I'll be able to say "show me", and point at the PC in the shop. When a design appears with poorly resolved details, I can have the student search the "history of furniture" photo archive on the university server for some examples they can borrow from. A "favorites" list of websites will have a "hardware sources" category. "Woodworking links" might also be listed there. What we don't have a real catalogs for most often can be found on the WWW. I also have some videos I've made of various shop/tool procedures. If we can put a headphone jack and some headphones on this PC, the students will be able to watch and listen to these videos right in the shop. I'll concede the need for a PC in this shop setting (it was my idea, about 10 years ago). But I'm curious.... Do any of you actually have a computer in the same space you have your workbench? If so, does it well survive the sawdust? What is it used mostly for in that setting? And does anyone know of a dust-proof keyboard source? You know, like those food proof keyboards the fast food places use? My plan will hide the CPU under a desk in the fairly dust free shop office, but put the monitor, keyboard and (maybe) a mouse on a standing height desk on the other side of the wall in the shop. I can eliminate the mouse with a touch screen, but somehow can't imagine not needing the keyboard.Dave

3. 
   piffin_ | Dec 25, 2001 04:43am | #7

   *Dave, I wouldn't put my drawing board in the shop and expect quality, clean, drawings either and clean is necessary if you will save or reproduce. Nor can I think in the distraction of machine shop moises or breathe in the midst of sawdust.I can do CAD, work at a board, or sketch on a napkin or piece of plywood. You do your students a diservice by exhibiting prejudice against CAD since it is the tool of the future for draftsmen and designers. A shop teacher could take points off for using a hammer instead of a pnuematic tool since it is slower but skill with both tools is needed to perform in the trades. A teacher should equip his students with all the necessary tools and allow them to learn the pros and cons of each without penalizing the student for the shortcomings of the tool.

4. 
   Adrian | Mar 29, 2002 04:44pm | #9

   I also have a school shop; my students definitely want a couple of CAD drafting stations in the shop....they have a lab they can use, but they need it on the floor (they're getting some of that from me; when I'm working out geometry or complicated layouts, I haven't drawn anything full size on paper or a sheet of whatever for years....I sketch quickly on paper (very badly), then design graphically, and get any of the construction info I need....angles, measurements etc. , right from the drawing). There are computers on the floor in hundreds or thousands of shops; seem to work fine if you do what you can to keep the dust out. My computer is in my office, which is just off the shop, and with a door always open, prone to dust....holds up fine.

   We're hopefully doing a major expansion here in the next couple of years; quintupling the size.  I'll have a dedicated CAD/CAM lab integrated into the floor plan, and networked to the shop. It will be just a few steps from the shop into the lab with 24 hour access. I'm also doubling the amount of Autocad time they get next year, plus adding CAM, and more spreadsheet stuff. We also have kitchen design software, and I'm in the process of upgrading that. Depends what you're teaching I guess; I'm producing high quality tradesmen/production people, not studio oriented designer/craftspeople. That's a big part of my background, and I encourage people with those inclinations, but that's not what we do, and they still have to learn how to function in the world of modern woodworking. Getting it through the heads of the STUDENTS that this stuff is important is another matter.

   Anyway, for me personally, I could never imagine not using CAD, and although I'm still on the learning curve myself, I think I can be creative at the keyboard....that first, inital sketch may still be pencil and paper, but (maybe because I draw so badly), I get way closer to what is in my head with CAD than I could ever do with a pencil. I break out the pencil when I'm standing there, on the floor, with someone trying to explain what it is they have to do.

   cabinetmaker/college instructor. Cape Breton, N.S

   Edited 3/29/2002 9:45:11 AM ET by Adrian

5. 
   RobbieS3 | Mar 29, 2002 03:48pm | #8

   Hey david, 2 experiences with electronics as a whole in bad places. Somalia, Africa and in an auto repair shop. In both cases I made a frame to cover the complete system(desk and all) then covered the frame with a vapour barrier. The front flips open with a hinged frame in front and chained open when in use. Otherwise, it's always closed. Think of a portable spray finishing area....a fan blowing the dust out instead of sucking it out is a great improvement also. Hope this helps.

2. 
   TJinFL | Apr 03, 2002 08:27pm | #10

   David,

   I am thinking of using TurboCad, but the complexity seems a bit daunting.  Any well written books out there for TurboCad that focuses on woodworking?

   Thanks for your help. 

   Terry

1. 
   BenchMarkPhil | Apr 04, 2002 12:37am | #11

   I've started a series of "Woodworking with CAD" article on my web site. Other than that and a few articles in wood magazines, you are on your own.

   PMB

   http://benchmark.20m.com

1. 
   DonaldCBrown | Apr 04, 2002 12:55am | #12

   Phil-

   I checked your site, and you're off to a great start. My only suggestion is to reconsider using a black background for your screen illustrations. The reduced-size drawings don't show up as clearly as you might desire.

   Don

2. 
   RickyBriggs | Apr 04, 2002 08:06pm | #13

   Phil,

   I loved your site and your shop, you are one hell of a tidy wooworker!

   Kind Regards,

   Ricky Briggs.

1. 
   BenchMarkPhil | Apr 04, 2002 10:15pm | #14

   The shop was hosed out before I took pictures. Masking the other pictures on the site removes a lot of clutter as well. Believe it or not, when the shop is dirty it doesn't look much different that what is seen on my web, Dust and chips just don't show up well in pictures.

   PMB

   http://benchmark.20m.com