What is the advantage(s) to a sprayed finish of combustible material that takes a huge investment in equipment and environment to use safely?
What is there beyond protection and appearance, and why would anyone invest anything beyond a rag or a paintbrush?
Replies
Time. The materials sprayed by commercial operations dry (and cure, as the case may be) much quicker than materials that can be brushed or wiped on. Consequently, they collect virtually no dust. That means that for all but the finest work, items can go out the door directly off the gun, without requiring the buffing or rubbing out that slower drying materials require, saving considerable labor. It means that they can be wrapped, stacked and crated days or weeks sooner--saving warehouse expense and the time value of money. You can be sure that commerical concerns wouldn't make the investments if there weren't savings--substantial savings.
There are products suitable only for spraying that do surpass the protection of brushable products. Whether that is for the benefit of consumers or for the manufacturer is a different question.
Edited 3/8/2009 9:27 am ET by SteveSchoene
Edited 3/8/2009 9:33 am ET by SteveSchoene
I see.If I can achieve those same objectives (shellac comes to mind) without spraying, then, spraying has nothing to offer me?
Not sure what you are driving at but, brushing on shellac is a rather slow process compared to spraying it on. And, for most finishers, brushing shellac can not produce a nice, smooth finish right off the brush.The whole issue is about time and, as Steve said, being able to use finishes that are able to be shipped faster. If your time is your own, then hand finishing is just fine.Howie.........
Howard is right, using hand applied finishes can achieve almost all the performance objectives that can be obtained by the commercial spray products. But it does require time. More time to apply, more time for curing, and more time to buff and/or rub out the finished product. Virtually the only product that can be applied by hand that approaches the full protective capabilities of post catalyzed lacquers, conversion varnishes, and 2k polyurethanes are oil based varnishes. And these varnishes require several days span to apply a protective coating, weeks to cure, and a labor intensive process of rubbing out. If you have the time, and the skills, then you can certainly achieve finishes that are every bit as "fine" as those that can be applied in the fanciest of spray facilities. But you can never make money doing that for the market place.
That's why oil based varnish and shellac are essentially products for amateurs. But always remember that in the full sense of the word, amateurs can produce the very finest of products.
I recently switched from oil based varnish to water borne and I'll NEVER go back. No need for explosion proof anything to spray. Dries hard enough to sand in about an hour vs 24 hours for oil based, no stink and you only need a respirator to keep the overspray out of your lungs.
BTW, it looks just likt the oil based finish and rubs out like glass.
Dick
>>"I recently switched from oil based varnish to water borne ...."And I am looking to make the same change. Although I LOVE the ease and quickness of the solvent-based spray finishes, the VOC's are just way too much.I recently did a couple of small tables, and I tried a poly-crylic. I liked the way it smoothed out, but I'm concerned about long term durability.What water-borne products are you using/trying, and why do you like them?
Politics is the antithesis of problem solving.
Shellac: one coat every half an hour. I'm not seeing any advantage.
"Shellac: one coat every half an hour. I'm not seeing any advantage."
You will the first time someone slops their merlot or Jack Daniels all over your beautiful coffee or dining table. Verne
If a tree falls in the forest, and no one is there to cut it up and make something with it . . . what a waste!<!----><!----><!---->
I see; spraying a finish helps you bury bodies?
Seriously, though, so spraying means you can put on protective finishes at a shellac pace?
Yep.Verne
If a tree falls in the forest, and no one is there to cut it up and make something with it . . . what a waste!<!----><!----><!---->
When that happens just walk to the kitchen get a few paper towels and wipe it up. Unless you leave it set for quite a while shellac won't be damaged by spilling a drink, even neat Whisky (no "e" ). You Will get damage from highly alkaline cleaners, including ammonia.
You aren't done when you have applied the shellac every half hour. You still need to be doing a bit of rub out. That's won't always be needed with sprayed lacquer.
And, although shellac is tougher and more protective than some seem to think, it is not as protective in terms of household chemicals or heat as lacquer, and it is a large step below the protection afforded by post-catalyzed lacquer or conversion varnish. Shellac or oil/varnish finishes may well be fully sufficient in many households and for many purposes, but quite a lot of folks won't find it that way. Waterborne finishes applied by hand step up a notch--basically to the level of a good lacquer. The conversion varnishes can only be approached with oil based varnish among the hand applied finishes.
Basically it's not a question of one way being better or worse, they are just different and are chosen for different reasons. If time is scarce, go with hand applied shellac or oil/varnish mixes and accept the relatively modest degrees of protection afforded. It may well be enough. If time is scarce and substantially more protection is needed, go with a sprayed finish. But, if time is ample, you can achieve a very protective finish with either hand applied finishes or with sprayed finishes (but with a time bonus, whether needed or not.)
Steve,
I agree with you for the most part, but my experience has been that some shellac finishes can be damaged pretty quickly with alcohol. And don't forget that you don't find some of those indiscretions until the morning after. Shellac is great stuff for many surfaces -- I love French Polishing on the lathe -- but when it comes to resisting accidents I don't trust it, hence my reply to Jammer.
You're absolutely right with regard to the rubbing out -- Just because shellac is dry in short order doesn't mean it's ready for another coat. Verne
If a tree falls in the forest, and no one is there to cut it up and make something with it . . . what a waste!<!----><!----><!---->
Shellac: one coat every half an hour. I'm not seeing any advantage.
The time savings is not only in how long you have to wait to apply the next coat, but how long it takes to apply it. A raised panel door, for instance, can be sprayed in less than a minute. If you have only four doors to finish with a brush, chances are you're not even going to get them coated in a half hour. If you're spraying in a decent space, you can coat 20 doors and have a cup of coffee in 30 minutes.
Will I have enough time for espresso, though?
Sure- only do 18 instead of 20
Why are you stuck on Oil Based? Target and others make some wonderful water based products lots of woodworker rave about. Not as durable as those mentioned by Hammer, but if you need those it might be best to go to a pro.
Shellac is a great finish, but not for EVERY project. Wayy too many coats sometimes also.
Do one project with a spray gun and I bet you will not look back. I did recently. I can honestly say I do not think I will dislike finishing nearly as much in the future. Sure it takes a few minutes to clean the gun, but now that I am getting the hang of it better, its easy to see the benefit.
I just finished a Built in Wall Unit and the last part of the project I sprayed 40parts twice in an evening. There were trim pieces, flatwork, doors, and shelves. Actual time spraying was around 1hr, about 10min mixing/organizing, and 30min cleaning up (cleaned the gun twice). Four of the parts were 4'sq flat parts for final sizing on site. I sprayed them and they were ready to mount. No fussing with brush lines or scuff sanding.
You dont have to invest a ton of $$ to try this out. I started as a trial with an import gun and a simple plastic enclosure. Now I am going to add the other necessary items.
Brad
I finished several exterior doors and a lot of outdoor furniture with a water-based product called Varathane Diamond Exterior Finish. (Varathane is a Canadian product, but it's now made by Rustoleum, so I imagine it's available in the USA.) After ten years, the oldest door is still in perfect condition. Mind, it's on the north side, so it doesn't get sunlight, but it still looks like new.
Hello YES,
On my "fine" furniture I prefer to stick with traditional finishes like boiled linseed oil and shellac. However on "commercial" work, kitchen cabinets and other work that will take a lot of abuse, I have found that Target water based conversion varnish and lacquers are second to none. When using these products, I usually spray them using a Fuji three stage HVLP set-up. With a little practice, you will be laying down finishes like the pros.
Bob, Tupper Lake, NY
There's an interesting facet-- how much practice does spraying take?
Hello Jammer,
I had never sprayed anything, conventional, HVLP or other wise, until I picked up my first HVLP (two stage Campbell Hausfeld) at a garage sale. Was spraying shellac, with excellent results, after only about a half-hour of reading and about another half-hour of practice cardboard. There is a small learning curve with HVLP, however manufacturers like Target Coatings have a great forum/knowledge base on their site. I read the new posts daily. I found the trickiest part of using HVLP was learning maintain the proper air-cap distance from an object and getting a feel for the proper air flow setting. This still only takes a short time. Always do test panels, to get every thing set prior to going at your final project.
As you research the various HVLP manufactures, you will find that some of the cheaper guns are bleeder types (air flows through the air cap at all times), this was the case with my Campbell Hausfeld. The constant flow of air made it more difficult for me to get the results I wanted. When I switched to the Fuji system that all went away. By the way, my only reason for choosing the Fuji system over other non-bleed ones was price. There are several manufactures who make great non-bleeder type HVLP systems.
Bob, Tupper Lake, NY
As other posters have written, spraying saves time. Lots of it. My biggest spray job was the doors of a built-in unit 13' wide by 11' high.I finished the job in a weekend. 2 coats of undercoat - sanded - and 3 of topcoat. Try doing that by hand!Personally I prefer brushwork but for a job like the above it meant minimal disruption. I have not sprayed for some years but am tempted to try a water-borne finish next.
You have to think outside your own realm of experience. Architects and clients often specify the type of finish that must be used, particularly in commercial work. There can also be techniques used, such as toners that need spraying. There are times when padding on shellac is fine, quick and easy, drawer sides for example. Shellac isn't something you want to use on a bank tellers counter or a nurses station in a hospital. Lot's of different types of finishes are also specified, from paint to flat to high gloss.
If you have a job with 400 shelving units, you can't spend time working all the parts by hand and get paid for it. You need the skill and equipment to get the finish right off the gun. Even the most expensive guns pay for themselves in a few days. For a small shop doing one piece at a time, you don't have to have an approved spray booth. Just set something up temporarily. A project like finishing a set of dining room chairs can be time consuming and fraught with runs, drips and hard to get to areas with hand applied methods. Sometimes, that may be the method I choose but I like having both alternative solutions as well as a wider selection of finish choices. You can't rag or brush on some lacquers, 2K urethanes and catalyzed polyesters.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
I'm done with commercial!I spent years in Local 131, and as a contractor, and there are no RFIs in my future!If I run into ANYTHING that requires a soils engineer, an architect or an electrical permit pulled, I'm going to run screaming into my woodshop and slam the door!
I know exactly what you mean. I wish they would make architects build something and live with it before giving them a stamp.Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
Aside from the production and speed aspect of spraying, there are many things you can do with a spray gun to affect the look of a piece that you can't achieve by hand application. The same works in reverse- there are things you can do with a brush or rag that are impossible by spraying.
It's always worth the time spent to experiment with different tools and methods. Through experimenation, you may discover new paths to explore that expand your abilities and knowledge about the craft in which you are working. If you discount or form poor opinions about a way of doing something without having explored that method, you will surely do yourself a disservice and your abilities and progress will stagnate.
The best (meaning self-satisfying) finishes I have achieved required the use of many different techniques that all took time to learn and adapt to my own style of working and desire to create something worth the time I spent doing it.
It's always worth the time spent to experiment with different tools and methods. Through experimenation, you may discover new paths to explore that expand your abilities and knowledge about the craft in which you are working. If you discount or form poor opinions about a way of doing something without having explored that method, you will surely do yourself a disservice and your abilities and progress will stagnate.Now, THAT, I agree with! I just wish it weren't so damn expensive to run some experiments!
Edited 3/13/2009 11:27 pm ET by Jammersix
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