After reading James Krenov’s A Cabinetmaker’s Notebook, and the other books of his trilogy.
I got the notion to making some wooden hand planes. I bought 3 kits from:
http://www.hocktools.com/products.htm, which function reasonably well with a lot of tinkering. I made 3 other planes from plans,but none have been satisfactory. The problem has been the shavings do not clear the plane opening and jam so have to be cleared with a plastic tool to clear the wad of shavings. Also, I can’t get the depth of the iron fine tuned.
I had packed these planes up about 12-15 years ago and set them on a shelf but with the passage of time,I thought I would give it another try. They don’t work any better than they did in the past.
My observation is I have 2 problems. The shavings jam into a wad.2nd The slope of the wedge is not correct so I can fine tune the depth of the iron. I need help to try to fix the problems. If I can’t do it. I wonder if there is someone more skilled than I that I can send them to to get them in working order. I would be willing to pay a reasonable price for their help. Your suggestions for resource material or individuals that work on planes would be appreciated.
Replies
swifty,
I hope Larry W sees this and chimes in with his perspective.
It's hard for me to say what your problem is with the shavings packing up. The area directly above the mouth of the plane ought to be opening up pretty quickly, so the shaving can curl away from the blade, and get away from the action. The sides of the throat ought to get a bit wider as they rise into the throat, and the tips of the wedge in their channels on either side need to be shaped so that they do not protrude into the throat area and snag the shaving. The whole throat and top side of the wedge needs to be smooth so that the shaving has nothing to snag on and pack up.If the thickness of the shaving is too great for the mouth of the plane, obviously, it can't get out of its own way, and will choke.
I adjust my planes by lightly setting the wedge, then gently tapping (with a wooden mallet) on the end of the iron to gain more depth of cut, finally another tap on the wedge to fix the setting. If the wedge fits correctly (you can see by looking for burnishing on the wedge where it has been bearing on the channels), it doesn't take a great big whack on the wedge to set it enough to hold the blade in place. If the plane's iron tapers in thickness along its length, it takes very little wedging, more pressure is needed for un-tapered irons.
A light whack on the tail of the plane, or on the top of the body in front of the throat will retract the iron if it is set too rank, and loosen the wedge. A sharper rap will release the wedge altogether.
Ray
Ray,
It's been more than 30 years since I tried to adjust a "Krenov style" plane.
My guess about the shavings "piling up" is there's a problem with a cap iron. Is this plane steeper than common pitch? Cap irons and steeper pitches don't mix well. Back the cap iron off-get it out of the way while the issue is resolved.
I'm out of time for a while. I'll be in the hospital for the coming week and on my back at home for a while after that but I'm not the person to try to figure out Krenov style planes. I'm sure someone else out there would be better able to help with these planes.
Keep 'em in line while I'm gone, Ray.
larry,
Thanks for your input. And good luck while in hospital.
Keep 'em in line? Like herding cats...
Ray
Larry,
Sorry to hear you are heading for the hospital.
Get well soon, and hurry back.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Larry,
My best wishes and prayers that everything becomes good.
Take care,
Metod
Hi Swifty
Shaving ball up when they have no space to move. Generally it is because they are jamming up under the cap iron or wedge, or there is insufficient clearance angle in front of the blade.
Your problem may be remedied as simply as pulling the cap iron further back on the blade. Another may be that the front of the cap iron or wedge is too blunt (and bending shavings back into the mouth).
It might help if you posted a few pictures for us to see.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Couple of trouble shooting tips:
Could be backing up against wedge or cap iron. Cap iron needs to be absolutely tight against blade. And wedge needs to be tight against cap iron or tip of wedge up high enough (not too high though) so that shaving coming through doesn't jamb there.
Have also found that iron assembly should fit pretty close to plane side walls. That is if you have 1 1/2" iron the width of throat opening shouldn't be more than say 1 9/16" otherwise shavings have a tendency to jamb in the excess space at the edge of iron.
The edge opposite the ramp edge should be filed back slightly and even slightly rounded in a sort of back cut from the bottom of the sole upwards.
Try reading David Finck's book. He gives really good finely detailed instruction on getting wooden planes to work.
If all else fails you can send them to me. Just email me and let me know. I use to teach a short course on plane-making in the krenov style.
Hi Ted:
I opened up the mouth of one till the point the shavings would clear but is a lot more open than looks right. What are the books that you suggested?
as a back up plan> I may need your address. What would be your fees for checking out the planes and making adjustments ? I have one plane that I built out of rosewood that I really would like to get to work properly.
Thanks for Your help.
I can't remember the name of the book. I think it was making and using wooden handplanes or something like that. Do a google on David Finck and I'm sure it'll come up. I'm in southwest OH. Your pics didn't post if you send them again we may be able to troubleshoot here on the forum.
Hi Ted:
Here are some photos. The solid rosewood plane is the one I really want to work correctly.
I am using Hock irons and chip breakers.
I hope these photos come through clearly.
Book = Making & Mastering Wood Planes by David Finck paper back ISBN 0-8069-6163-5 $18Is a reliable and accurate way to make planes. You may like to get a plane makers float or two from Lie-Nielsen:http://www.lie-nielsen.com/catalog.php?cat=534I don't have these. They were not available when I was making my planes but I really needed them !Does anyone have a source for box wood large enough to make a shave like Sam Malloof's. The latest Tools and Shops has a handsaw with a big old handle made of box wood. I was jealous when I saw that ! I have one tiny chunk but will not use it until I can get more.I need a stick at least a foot long and two by two inch in cross section.roc
Edited 12/15/2008 3:11 am by roc
David Finick's book is $100 minimum to $145.00.
That is more than I can pay.
Here is a couple of photos of the rosewood plane that I am having so much trouble.
I have 2-more that I don't have as much money or time in. Let me know if the photos don't come through
David's book is currently out of print. That is why the prices have gone up. He is working on getting another printing.
I made my first plane using his book and it worked great the first time. I plan to make another soon. Check out the irons that he sells. Good price (includes the cap iron) and work very nicely. They take and hold a good edge and are designed for the Krenov style plane.
>David Finick's book is $100 minimum to $145.00oops sorry I had now idea. I am going to sell mine and retire to Mexico ! ! ! Try this I think it has some good info as I recall:http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/ProjectsAndDesign/ProjectsAndDesignPDF.aspx?id=30018also:http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/SkillsAndTechniques/SkillsAndTechniquesArticle.aspx?id=30138Wow who says investments are not paying off these days. Glad I bought it when I did.
Might be worth a trip to your local woodcraft store they may have a copy and not know or sell for the "collector's price".Edited 12/16/2008 12:24 am by roc
Edited 12/16/2008 1:03 am by roc
"David Finick's book is $100 minimum to $145.00"!!!!!!!My copy still has the $17.95 sticker on it. I better get right over to Ebay and put this baby up for auction! Who says woodworking doesn't pay?!$100 minimum to $145?OK, so it's out of print. But it's not THAT valuable.Rich
Thanks for your help. I wish that I had seen it before I decided to open up the throat to allow the jammed shavings to escape. I may have to make an insert to correct my mistake. My Primas has an adjustable insert adjust the throat. Have any of you made an adjustable throat?
>opened throatTight throat is over rated in my book. The main thing is the blade is properly sharpened. The clearance behind the edge can not be rounded and microscopically "bellow" the edge.Another critical thing is the sole in front of the blade must be touching the surface same as the toe and heal of the plane. If the area behind the blade toward the heal is touching and lifting the area in front of the blade off the surface then you need to scrape sole to correct this. With this set up then throat can be a bit open no prob.I feel like I have already said this here somewhere Sorry if that is the case.roc
roc,
"Tight throat is over rated in my book" - Ha, there is a big difference between a .008000562" and .008000568" opening. Microscopic minds looking for microscopic differences...
Physics owes much of its progress to the advances in measuring, but 'woodworkers' get a chance at halting their development - and grab it with gusto.
Best wishes,
Metod
Metod.: )>development . . grabed with gusto.I am so over developed now I must seek to halt it at every opportunity.roc
Edited 12/23/2008 5:13 pm by roc
...and merry Christmas and best in the coming year,
Metod
Same to you sir ! Same to you and yours !roc
Hey Swifty,
Derek's suggestion is the first I would look at. Jim always suggested having the cap iron just a hair back from the edge, but this has never worked for me, EVER... On a well tuned plane with a fine mouth, you really don't even need a cap iron, especially with the thick Hock blades. On virtually all of my planes, the cap iron is back at least 3/16", some more like a quarter. Mess around with it, wax the cap iron and front ramp of the throat, see what happens.
I'm not sure about your adjusting problem, is there something specific it is not doing? Will it not hold the setting? Will it not move at all? A little more detail and I can probably figure it out, or someone else will chime in...
If you're in SoCal I'd be glad to look at the planes, no charge...
- Kit
>chips jamming
You may be limited by needing to take a light thin shaving with these planes as they are. In other words if taking a medium thickness shaving you may need to open up the slot in the bottom of the plane.
Also. To set your plane blade depth/protrusion from the bottom of the plane you may want to cheat for now and with the plane on the bench top put a piece of paper under the front of the plane between the bench top and the sole of the plane and put the blade in until it touches the surface past the paper. Then put the wedge in and tap it snug.
If it still is too deep try thinner paper. If it works great then try a second sheet of paper. Can rub some lumber crayon or chalk on one surface blade wedges against and will rub off on wedge and can flatten from there. Same for bed. For your very hard wood planes you may want to make a softer wedge from softer wood. Grips better on blade and cross piece.
Another book that is good for learning to adjust the throat and bed for blade is Toshio Odate's book Japanese Woodworking Tools: Their Tradition, Spirit, and Use (Paperback)
http://www.amazon.com/Japanese-Woodworking-Tools-Tradition-Spirit/dp/0941936465
Japanese planes are a bit different but still applies and the rest of the book is fascinating.
roc
Hi roc
Here is one for you to try ..
Setting up a Woodie with a Glass Blade Setting Block
Regards from Perth
Derek
>glass plane setting block and nice photos:You live well I must say.OK I admit it. My tool valet sets up my hand planes so they are ready to go for me. So I haven't ACTUALLY used tha paper technique my self. But I think I heard him describing the procedure to the chofure once. Aaaannndd ok he tends to do most of the planing for me as well.BUT ! I hang on to the finish plane while he makes the last passes over the surface just be fore he heads for the finish room.What ? Whhhaaaat ? WHAAT ! ? Why are you looking at me like that ? You guys are soooo intense.
roc,
you mentioned the use of paper to set the iron on a wood plane. if the paper is too thick, use thinner paper. Actually paper is quite thick. I can get a shaving of a half a thou using my LN 5 1/2. To set a wood plane, it is best to first buy a LN 5 1/2, and learn how to make a shaving of a half a thou, and use a part of one of those shavings to set your wood plane.Always glad to help.
Mel
PS by the way, if you camber the iron on your LN, be sure to measure the thickest part of the shaving. You don't want to be fooling yourself. What is woodwork if we cannot achieve precision? Of course, I sometimes waste so much time trying to achieve precision that I don't get any woodwork done. :-) Can't wait to get a 30,000 Shapton waterstone. I have been praying to St. Jude to intercede with God, and to get her to have Shapton make a 60,000 stone. That will take woodworking to a new level.Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Lataxe,: )Can I borrow your particle accelerator? I am having trouble getting my particles accelerated this morning.roc
Mels particle accelerator is really just a blender he has in the kitchen. IF his mate allows him to use it...
>BlenderHey Will ! How you do'in?I know how that permission thing goes. Same here.Well I can report I now have a project in clamps in the living room because the shop is too cold to glue up there. So I have joined your glue up in the living space club.Don't let Mel put anything in that blender that you don't first test and approve.( I first wrote B e n d e r instead of B l e n d e r. Must mean something about my subconsious but I don't want to know what )roc
Mel,
You are burping ("repeating" as posh ladies in Angland say). The pong of that bitter root you have been chawin' on is bad enough without us having to suffer it for a second, third and even 308th occasion.
Time for a new Mel theme. Shurely you can think up more than one, for your new role as a Knots Kurm? Do I have to send you a list or what!?
Here's one: lads that think they can psychoanalyse other woodworkers using nothing but a dog-eared old copy of B F Skinner and three ill-chosen prejudices are unlikely to succeed, either at the psychoanalysis or in entertaining theirsens. Discuss.
Or how about: beating on the same drum, with the same note and in the same mono-beat rhythm is unlikely to please the neighbours. Is this a fallacy?
Lataxe, burp-monitor.
David,
you are right. I need some new horses to ride. Over in the big thread, I tried to come up with a list of egg-citing ideas. The only one of them that Ray liked was the idea of "dust collection." He says he has a pretty good collection of different types of dust now, and you are going to send him a few more samples.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
swifty,
Get Finck's book. It is must reading for this purpose. The kits you bought do not contain enough information regarding the making and adjusting of hand planes.
If anything Finck is maddeningly obsessive about describing the adjusting of every piece of equipment you use to make a plane, and the planes he describes in the Krenov fashion. The book is a general course on wood working craftsmanship. You'll even learn how to meter the flow of glue onto a wood joint so that only a few beads appear at the glue line when the joint is clamped tight.
Every thing you need to know about making and adjusting Krenov-style planes is in there.
I make my wood planes in the general manner he describes. No expensive "floats." Just generally-available tools. I use Hock blades. No chip breaker. No problem.
Rich
Photos of the problem plane. It is all rosewood. Let me know what views you need.
The problem is the shavings jam and I have difficulty in getting the depth of the irons( Hock iron and chip breaker. Here is the first photo.
It looks to me from your picture as if the crosspin is very low, and it has not been rounded over to provide a smooth pathway for chips to escape. Fitting of the wedge is critical to proper setting of the iron, which might also be a problem.The Finck book may be available in a library. It is very complete in describing every aspect of making, adjusting, and using these planes. It starts at the very beginning. Other books that describe making planes (including those without crosspins) tend to assume the reader has much more woodworking background.
Thanks for the suggestion about the Library. Our Library might be able to get it on intra Library loan?
Just wondering about the angle opposite (ahead of) the bed angle. From my view of the image I am wondering if it might be too steep? Also, has it been sufficiently smoothed, ..polished or waxed?, Might be just the photo or my aging eyes but it looks a bit coarse?
Just my two cents.
Gary
Check your library for the Finck book. I just put a hold on one of the 2 copies at the Cincinnati Public Library.
Grant
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