In the quest for greater productivity, I’m thinking about setting up a dedicated miter saw station in my shop.As for the “saw” I’m only looking for a basic 12″ and up model capable of cutting 45 & 90 angles. Not sliders or compound miter saws.I’ve looked at Omga which are great saws, but cost about$1400. and up.The only other alternatives seem to be the various Makita, DeWalt,Porter-Cable saws which are not really very accurate, powerful or consistent. Has anyone else found a good system or do I have to put this off until I win the lottery?
Thanks, Glendo.
Replies
You got to be kidding !
In what way would I be kidding?
Glendo.
Most of the 12 and 14 inch miter saws on the market today are super accurate and have more than enough power to do anything you ask of them. I am using the LS 1400 Makita for 20 years with no problems. It will still cut a 5 by 5 in oak to 1 tenth of a degree. What more can you want in a miter saw?
My experience with Makita saws has not been as favorable. I have an old 10" Makita that cuts perfect 90's and 45's across the fence, but not perpendicular to the table. Two 10" Mikita sliders I purchased, exchanged and ultimately returned had a problem with the registration of the detents, when adjusted to cut at 90 degrees it was fine. When then set at 45, it was off by more than 1 degree. I tried DeWalts 12" miter saw a few years back.It had so much runout in the blade spindle it cut coves. Two more I checked right out of the box had the same problem. I use a Bosch 10" slider for on site work, its sloppy but I'm used to it's querks. All had adequate power, but I felt a bit more wouldn't hurt.
The LS-1400, if it is still being manufactured, sounds like an excellent tool.I was not aware of it's existence, and that was the type of information I was hoping to acquire from this post. However, in my experience,"super accurate" would not be a description I would use about any of the saws I've used thus far.
Thanks for the lead, I will follow up on it.
Glendo.
I guess I have had better luck than you with tools. I have a 10 inch Makita for 15 years and it cuts perfect still. I have worked full time in the remodeling and cabinet building business with these tools. I am careful not to wear out the detents, mosts older saws with other carpenters have lost their accuracy. The LS 1400 has been upgraded 2 or 3 times and the name is different now,but I just went to the Makita website and got a new dustbag for it a week ago. I have never really needed the functions of the slide and compound saws, but the big 14 inch blade comes in handy on large molding.
Are you a machinist or a carpenter?? If there are no saws on the market that can make a glass smooth, perfect fitting miter, then I guess the rest of us who settle for these crap saws must not be very demanding?? I mean, we are talking about wood in the first place---and if you cut wide enough stock where runout to the third or fourth place affects the cut, then set up your cabinet saw and use that. There are plenty of saws available that make more than acceptable cuts for even the most demanding high end carpenter--and they don't cost $1400!! Maybe the anal boys over at knots can help you out---if they have any free time from hand cutting every joint and sharpening their chisels to do surgery--only kidding.
I do admit that I have high standards, but I also know what is reasonable to expect from a piece of woodworking machinery.Also,having worked in the industry most of my life I've noticed how undemanding many craftsmen are and that a lot of the equipment they use is crap. This is not to say that excellent results can not be achieved with less than perfect equipment, it just takes longer.
I have to say I'm a little surprised by the nature of the responses to my initial posting. Mediocrity should be pleased to have such support.
Glendo.
I get the feeling that you have never cared about tools like most cabinet builders and carpenters do. I am very fond of my tools, they are part of my identity. Unlike you I have never felt I have been held back by the accuracy or dependability of the machines I chose. For 20 plus years I had to deliver visual perfection to my wealthy and fussy clients in Manhattan, along with the demanding designers and architects. Coming into a woodworking forum and denigrating tools, kind of insults all the tool lovers here. Maybe if you develop an affection for the tools you have, they will work better for you.
Tools to me are largely a means to an end, but I've never felt held back artistically, only cronologicly.I have a few tools I'm very fond of and I don't see how anyone who works with there hands wouldn't have an affinity for the tools they work with. However, this is not the point of my quiery.The point is efficiency. I'm glad you enjoy your tools but what I'm looking to do is increase productivity in my shop.
Is that so wrong?
Glendo.
I looked up the Makita website and checked out the 12" saws then I went to Amazon.com, they are selling the LS1221 compound for 299.00 Seems like a great deal to me. Amazon is hard to beat for their tool prices.
Thanks,
Glendo.
Glendo,
I have two DeWalt miter saws: a 12" SCMS and a 10" chop/miter saw. The slider is permanently setup on a cabinet/bench with Beismeyer fenses on either side, and the chop saw, which I use on job sites, is setup on an American Design and Engineering portable table. I've got right angle, inside and outside miter stops on the Beismeyer fence which, along with a well adjusted saw, produce VERY accurate and smooth cuts. Smoothness, you know is a function not only of good bearings, but supreme blades - I use Leitz HiAT blades (I think 80 tooth). I've been using the slider for about seven years, and like everey other machine in my shop, I often test and adjust it. All machines need periodic maintenance. That includes my Felder sliding table saw. That, BTW, is the most repeatedly accurate machine in my cabinet shop.
Frankly, I don't know what you said that elicited the rather negative response to your initial question. If we can't be critical here, then what's the point of the forum?Namaste,
Gary
http://gwwoodworking.com/
He wants point 5 decimal place accuracy from woodworking tools...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming.... WOW!!! What a Ride!
Hi.sounds like a good system. I just purchased a 12" Makita with a 12" by 100 tripple chip blade by FS. I also bought the American D & E table. The Makita seems to hold abjustments well and is comfortable to use. So far so good.
The responces I've had have been surprising to me also, and not particularly constructive. A few people, such as yourself, have been very helpful and seemed to understand the point of my question. I can only assume others only read bits and pieces and missed the point altogether.
Thanks!
Glendo.
Glendo,
Thanks for your comments. Don't let the less than helpful responders throw you - ignore them.
The AD&E table is a great job site setup, but I prefer a more rigid table for the most repeatedly accurate cuts. Although I leave my smaller saw on the AD&E table in my assembly area (for less stringent cutting requirements), I bless the day I set up the SCMS on a more permanent bench. If you do the same, check out the mitersaw fence system at: http://www.biesemeyer.com/miter_radial/index.htm.Namaste,
Gary
http://gwwoodworking.com/
I've got the Mikita mounted on a long wall next to my bench with the American table and stop. Probably should have done it a long time ago but, time keeps most things from happening at once.
Biesemeyer makes a great product. I bought one of their T-fences when they first came out. I still grin when I use it.
Thanks again,
Glendo.
Hi there, check this site out.
http://www.hoffmann-usa.com/htm/miter_saws/mitersaws.htm
Bruce
Thanks, they're great machines. I'm looking at getting a second hand CDT. If that doesn't work out I'll probably go with Omga.
Glendo.
Hi there, I just purchased 10" Hitachi 10FSB slide compound saw with the laser attachment. I think for the money it is a high quality saw.
Bruce
I'm not sure what you think is accurate, but I have a 12" DeWalt (705) and a 10" Makita Slider, LS 1013. I can put a wide board on either, cross cut, flip one piece have have a perfect fit. I've cut lots of miters, trim, moldings, frames, etc, with nary a crack.
Alan & Lynette Mikkelsen, Mountain View Farm, est. 1934, Gardens & Fine Woodworking, St. Ignatius, MT
About 5 or 6 years ago when sliders first came on the market in a big way, I attempted to buy one. To make a long story short, I brought home and returned 8 different saws. All had serious problems. I tried everything but the Hitachi, only because I couldn't find one. The Mikita's detents were off by one degree between 90 and 45 degrees, the Milwaukee rumbled like a freight train, the DeWalt had bad arbor bearings, delta was just sloppy all over and the fence on the Bosch didn't have enough play to be adjusted correctly, the holes weren't big enough. Also, the fence wasn't flat.I ended up buying the Bosch because it was the least bad of the bunch. They sent me two different fences, one was acceptable. I still had to make modifications to the saw to use it.These companies have since improved there saws and seemed to have worked most of the bugs out of them. Also I suspect it was just my moment to have bad luck with saws. Whatever the reason, I think I will just break down and get the Omga. I've never regretted Investing in good tools, and usually regret buying on price alone.
Thanks for the input everyone.
Cheerz,
Glendo.
Tools like anything else need to be adjusted, and then readjusted until the bugs are really all worked out. If I buy a high quality tool, I still expect to tweek it and work with it a bit till it fits my own degree of craftsmanship. Then they need to be carefully maintained. I don't think I have ever seen a cutting tool that has worked perfect right out of the box...well my one LN block plane did, but... Remember we are also talking about working with wood, something which is also imperfect, that moves and breathes and as it ages it takes on a patina with all its own imperfections. I think you should go for the top of the top line and then have it worked on till it fits what you want it to do, this sounds like what you want anyways. It's a crapshoot with tools. Many times you don't have to pay an arm and a leg to get professional production results. Just keep asking around. I too am in the market for a 12" slider and hear that the new Bosch's are really pretty good. Good luck.
Oh by the way, sliders have been around for a while. I bought my first Sawbuck over 20 years ago. Still have it, and still drag it out from time to time.
When I bought my Bosch slider it was because the problems that it had were fixable.All I had to do was grind the fence flat and re-bore the adjustment slots and it was ready to go. this was not true of the other saws I tried. The qualities the Bosch has I felt made it a good choice for on site work but made it a poor choice for shop work. The detents are fairly accurate but what I liked was the fact that one could nudge or tap the saw to cut either side of the pre- set stops by a fraction when needed. I also like the work hold down, it's quick and sturdy. I spoke to the lead engineer who designed the saw and I was told a lot of the saws problems early on were due to last minute changes due to safety concerns. I've looked at the the new saws and they seem to have worked all the bugs out. Over all the Bosch is a good solid work horse.
It seems to me from all the responses I've gotten that when it comes to miter saws quality control is less than perfect. However; "now and then" a good one slips through. I was biased by the fact that I encountered so many lemons all at once. I also hear the overall consistency of quality is a bit higher than it was 7 or 8 years ago.
Glendo.
I think that what you really need is a reasonable mitre saw teamed with a Mitre Trimmer — the guillutine type tool used to trim the last few thou off the joint and thus produce a glass smooth surface.
However, if what you are after is production scale throughput then the answer will be CNC machinery.
In reality you have two choices, settle for a little adjustment or hand work (which might mean some additional labour cost) or buy equipment where the "minor inaccuracies" have been built out. I can only afford the latter. It would seem that most woodworkers also can only afford the near enough quality, hence the nescessity to add in and out feed tables, cross-cut sleds and other jigs to table and cabinet saws. Now if enough WWers wanted an European style sliding table saw they would be as affordable as a uni saw. Yes, I admit to lusting after a 10 or 12 in sliding table saw with scoring blade and tables large enough to cut a 8 x 4 sheet.
I can't figure out if you're that good of a carpenter, or that big of a PITA , but that was the most critical 'assessment' I ever heard of miter saws. I suspect you're probably 'that good'. I've got the Bosch 4412 and I'm real happy with it, but I only work within a few thousandths, LOL. T R
WOW!
Ditto on the you can't be serious.....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming....
WOW!!! What a Ride!
check out a "whirlwind" up cut saw..foot pedalpower on, holddown clamp bar..chops all day...as fast as ya can move the wood to the stops. Needs air and 3 phase power, and dust collection.
View Image
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
Thanks!
I'll check them out.
Glendo.
Hello,
I've owned two 10" Makitas and one slide/combo goodie. At one point I even got so delerious as to buy a Delta Sawbuck. I have a couple suggestions:
If the tool is going to be a stationary setup in your shop, the 12" blade size would be dandy for cutting newel posts for staircases and the like. Of the two Makita 10" saws I owned, I thought the cast iron one (my first) was a dilly, but it was a bit heavier than the last one I bought (aluminum).
For me, I prefer to have a miter saw that uses 10" blades (same as my table saw). The Sawbuck was a one-trick pony in the blade department because it took a weird 8" blade. I don't want the guys who sharpen my blades to drive a Rolls while I'm still getting around in a Toyota truck.
Last, what really has made my miter saw setup one that I love near as much as my tablesaw is the outfit I bought ten years ago from American Design and Engineering Co., a set of extensions that go off to the left and right of the blade, have gradations that you can calibrate precisely, and their own thingamajig called a "Flip Stop" that allows you to quickly do repetitive cuts. They don't give them away, of course, but they're worth a look. I ordered a custom unit with extraordinary long wings (8 feet either direction), with an eye to the fact I may shop mount it and stop being a gypsy carpenter.
[email protected]
http://www.designimagineering.net (under construction)
Hi Rod, that sounds a lot like my system. I like the 12" saw because I build a lot of entry doors and need the extra capacity. I also like the AD&E table, it's set up semi-permanently in my shop. If I have the option of setting up shop on site its great to feel at home, so to speak.
Glendo.
Hello,
Your comment "build a lot of entry doors" leads me to another question: Have you ever seen a great design for a door table or source for one? I've built a couple when I was more active hanging doors and have some pragmatic ideas, but I've been looking for the "ideal," of course.
Rod
Maybe, what's a door table?
Glendo.
A door table is about 36" high, 72" long and 28" wide.
The two end pieces are carpeted (for laying door flat, trimming the bottom).
It has a tray at either end for laying router, door plane, misc. tools.
It has a center section that is open and you can jump in it and pick the table up and go from opening to opening.
It has two pieces which portrude 2" or so that will hold the door in a vertical position to enable you to mortise the hinge recesses.
Along the "back" side of the working surface is a multiple outlet strip to keep AC cords tidy & workable.
I made one out of 2x3 lumber and fastened it all together with drywall screws, but once the dimensions and such are ironed out, I think you could do a dandy job on it with proper joinery (never see drywall screws in fine furniture :)
That's the nuts and bolts of it. If you hang doors commercially (I did a Toyota dealership once), you can set up in a central location and work with your partner running doors to openings with a skateboard as a "scooter."
Rod
Gotcha, I thought you meant a heavy bench to build a door on. For hanging or repairing doors I just use two regulation saw horses with heavy wooden hooks on the ends and carpeting on the sides and top. Then I set up a work bench (to more saw horses and a door) a few feet away. My dad did it that way and I always thought it worked pretty well. If I were doing a lot of doors I think your system would work better.
Glendo.
Hi Glendo, You seem to be pretty knowledgeable about the scms. I decided it was time to upgrade and buy a dual bevel saw and narrowed it down to the two Makitas- either the 10" or 12". What is the actual depth of cut for your 12" (at 90 degrees), and when do you find you need that extra depth? You mentioned when you're fabricating doors. Are there other occaisions? I'll be using mine mainly for trim and deck work. If anyone else has any thoughts, I'd love to hear them. SpruceD.
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