acoustics; noise insulation
My shop is in our basement. The noise permeates the entire house. What can I put between the ceiling joists to make the noise reasonable.
Note: Yesterday a friend and I remounted the dust collection system using 3/8″ rubber floor matting. That stopped the house shaking like a drum.
The solution depends on how the noise is produced. If it's low frequency impacts and vibrations, you won't be able to get rid of it completely but isolating (decoupling) the source from the foundation helps, which you found when you mounted your DC on rubber. Fiberglass batts help but a heavier barrier will do more. If you have a lot of headroom in the basement, you can install an acoustic membrane and cover it with drywall on resilient tracks or T Hat, or you can use particle board (flame retardant). Particle board is more suited for walls but it can be used. There is also a product that has a membrane between two layers of drywall and IIRC, it's called Quiet Zone.
Had the honour of attending my daughter's engagement party. Home again. Thanks for the advice.
I saw a tv show on this and they were installing fiberglass insulation along with two layers of sheetrock. Apparently works well, but I'll be damned if I'd have the ambition to install double sheetrock on a ceiling.
Thanks. My ambitions are in line with yours.
check out http://www.soundproofing.org. The layout of the site is horrible, but they have some pretty good information there. I haven't purchased from them, so I can't comment on that.
In my basement shop ceiling hight is a premium. I just put up drywall on the ceiling and it reduced the noise dramatically. If you do this make sure you cover or soffit in any duct work as sound travels on air. Anything that blocks the vibration will dampen the sound so make sure you tape and mud your joints.
Puting up homosote (about $9 a sheet at HD) under the drywall will reduce the sound many more times. its an easy underlaymet to the drywall b/c its light and the seams don't have to be perfect.
I looked into the sound proof drywall but it wasn't an option. One was a cellulose infused sheet that was about $150.00 per sheet but it had the same sound proofing as 8 sheets of drywall. There is a cheaper type that sandwhiches a steel sheet in the drywall but its still expensive.
The last option would be sound proof drop ceiling tile. Also very easy to install and there are systems that can install as close as an inch to your ceiling joists. Check out Armstrong's website.
In the end my wife and baby are not disturbed at night when I'm working in my shop and as I said I just went with the 1/2" drywall. Good luck.
This is just what I needed. Thank you; FlipT.
Hi - I'm a recording studio engineer/owner and an amateur woodworker. I think i can probably help you and point you to some good resources.Regarding insulation -- There are some types of insulation that are rated for sound and some which are not. *do not get ordinary fiberglass insulation for sound attenuation* -- in fact, if you install it you're wasting your time and money - seriously - look it up - it has no sound properties at all and will not work. Mineral wool insulation has excellent sound attenuation properties across 80Hz to 20,000 Hz. Walls that are insulated for sound attenuation *MUST* be sealed completely with caulk, or all the work you do will be completely wasted. I cannot stress this enough... one little teeny hole will negate the whole thing.For walls this layering system works very well -- 5/8" sheetrock, mineral wool, wood beams, 5/8" sheetrock, 1/8" Neoprene, 5/8" sheetrockas far as floating machinery and/or floors is concerned, much of how you construct and what materials you need depends on the resonant frequencies of the space, the frequencies at which the machinery vibrates, and the thickness and construction of the subflooring. These are also very important to keep in mind and again - you'll be wasting a lot of money and sweat if you don't do it right... Here's a good discussion on floating floors by a veteran pro acoustics guy:
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=8173Unfortunately, there's no quick, inexpensive, or easy way to attenuate machinery. It's exceedingly difficult and requires a lot of research and some heavy and expensive materials. Believe me - i run a recording studio in an industrial building. The concrete contractor who used to work next to us moved into another building and in order to isolate table vibrators and other loud equipment from the studio above him, he's already spent over $100,000 in materials alone!!!anyway i hope this helps a bit... the walls with roxul and neoprene are very helpful if youre using walls. Also Good Year makes some great floating isolators that are like little tires sandwiched between washers. they work quite well at floating floors -- again read as much as you can before you spend any $$$...good luck!!
It is clear there is a learning curve that must not; nor Will I, ignore. Thank you and best wishes; Flip T.
thanks for your informative post-
Can you tell me where I can buy mineral wool(rockwool?), preferably in sheets or rolls not loose? I'm a little further south from you in the DC area.
I'm covering a plaster over brick party wall between two row houses, to reduce noise.Expert since 10 am.
Unfortunately, mineral wool insulation is not used for regular building in this country very often, so it probably won't be readily available in your local building supply superstore, however there's a company called Allied Building Supplies that will ship it directly to you: http://www.alliedbuilding.com/What exactly are you attempting to do to the sound? are you dampening echoes from a brick wall? How tall is the wall you're covering? What are you going to put over the mineral wool? Typically mineral wool is used the same way fiberglass insulation is used. It comes in standard stud-spacing sized batts (16".) It does not have paper backing, so it must be sandwiched between two layers of sheetrock in order to stay in place and function properly as a sound attenuator.
I need to dampen sound, as much as possible.
The wall is 8' high 15' long. I tried sheets os polyisocyene(sp), 1/2" sheetrock on that... little success. Keeping the plaster on, I'll install mineral wool between that and new sheetrock. I assume this'll work better than a sheet(s) of neoprene rubber. I don't have enough space to build an isolated wall within a wall.Expert since 10 am.
I'm sorry, it's unclear to me what your situation is... is this a free-standing wall, or one wall of a room, connected to a ceiling, two other walls and a floor? Are you attempting to stop sound from going from one side of the wall to the other, or attempting to dampen an echo within the room? It's impossible to know what to construct or what materials to use without these bits of information... If you describe your situation in some detail I can try to help you to come up with a good, working solution.-pete
rowhouse, brick party wall, two rows thick with plaster.
noise is from the neighbor. and must be attenuated or stopped.
rigid foam board, as described, did little. no room for a separate wall cavity to absorb sound. I don't know how else to describe all this. If you have suggestions, please let me know.Expert since 10 am.
hi jackplane,I believe the most efficient and effective way to handle this is thusly:build a *wood* 2x4 frame about an inch out from the party wall. Seal all joints between 2x4s and against pre-existing surfaces with silicon caulk (this is important - one little crack will defeat the purpose of the entire project).. If your stud spacing is 16", you'll be able to stuff the frame with mineral wool insulation without putting a back layer of sheetrock on there. Then put a layer of 5/8" sheetrock on the front of the wall, again, sealing all joints with caulk. If you want to be extra soundproof, put a layer of 1/8" neoprene on the sheetrock and then another layer of 5/8" sheetrock on top of that -- the joints on the second layer of sheetrock should be offset from the joints on the first layer. instead of neoprene, you can use a product called "Green Glue" between the layers of sheetrock. it seems to work pretty well at killing vibrations.I can't stress enough that the most important part of this formula is that everything is sealed up airtight. The 1" gap between the old wall and new wall is also important, as that air will *trap* vibrations.
as I mentioned, I have no room for a separate 2x4 wall. I'll try to locate mineral wool, glue that to plaster, and drywall over mineral wool.Expert since 10 am.
I'm sorry - i missed the part about no room for a framed wall. You can't glue mineral wool to anything. It's a dense, but fairly loose material similar to fiberglass insulation but much more "chunky" - so it will just fall apart if you try to hang it with glue. I would suggest using resilient sound isolation clips between the party wall and your sheetrock (they take up very little space), then a layer of green glue or neoprene, then another layer of sheetrock - that should be about 2" total. Again, it's very important to seal everything airtight and not have the joints in the sheetrock match. broadband sound attenuation is all about mass-loaded materials, air-tight joints, and layers.hope this helps more.
Try Greenglue it is an acoustic transmission blocking compound that you spread between two hard surfaces (like two layers of drywall). <!----><!----><!---->
I am building my shop currently in the basement and am using the Greenglue, but I have not finished so I do not yet know how well it works. It is easy to apply, comes in a tube like construction adhesive.<!----><!---->
Their web site is very informative and convincing. greenglue.com (not associated with the company)<!----><!---->
Edited 5/4/2007 11:22 am ET by Woodchuck
Hi Pete and All...We are an architecture firm in Cincinnati and recently completed a home theater in Indianapolis and a large part of the success of the project is that it is acoustically isolated from the rest of the house. The separation happens in more than one way. The two biggest things to think of is mass and transmission/decoupling.For mass, we used a staggered stud frame wall filled with sound insulation batts. The staggered stud frame wall is 2x6 bottom and top plate with 2x4 studs @ 8" o.c. staggered. One stud flushes out to the interior of the room, the next stud 8" away flushes out to the exterior of the room and so on. The net result is a frame wall 5 1/2" thick with studs at 16" o.c. on either face of the wall. This is the first step to decoupling. This minimizes the acoustic "bridge" through the wall to just the top and bottom plates. If you have the space to build the "box in a box" that is the best. The gap between the two frame walls can be what ever you want, preferably so that no elements from one wall touches the other.On the interior side of the wall (the home theater) we next installed resilient channels at 4" from the top and bottom of the wall and spaced at 24" o.c. horizontally in between. It is important that the attachment strip is at the BOTTOM the channel. This helps to minimize the point of contact of the channel to the stud. Next, sheet up the first layer of drywall at 5/8" thick. After it is taped and bedded, we installed a sheet of 40 mil impregnated vinyl around the perimeter of the room staggering the seams in the vinyl from the seams of the drywall. Then lay up the second layer of drywall, this time 1/2" thick again staggering the seams of the drywall from the seams in the vinyl. The reason for the differing drywall thickness is to stop different frequencies/wavelengths from passing through. Two layers of the same thickness is not nearly as effective.The ceiling is constructed in much the same way. The resilient channel is attached to the bottom of the joists, rafters, trusses, etc. then drywall, vinyl, drywall. We actually used spring dampers for the home theater that hung the ceiling from the floor joists of the family room above, but those are not too cheap. I can provide the contact for getting the dampers and impregnated vinyl to those interested. The floor for the theater was built up on sleepers over a concrete slab.The weak points are any penetrations through this envelope such as recessed electric outlets and light fixtures which we were able to deal with without compromising the envelope. The biggest breach is the door into the space, which we used a 2 1/4" thick solid core door with acoustic head and jamb gaskets door sweep.We metered the family room above the theater during a explosive chase scene that barely registered 20 dB at its peak, a moderate whisper.The wall finish of room for the woodworkers out there is predominately American Cherry with ebonized maple accents and Carpathian Elm burl inlays at select areas. The clients are big fans of Beidermeier furniture and art deco which shows up in the design. See attached photo or go to our website http://www.rwaarchitects.com.Mark
yeah man - that's it! all those construction techniques in tandem will do the job for sure... regarding concrete slab floors and acoustic isolation, here's an interesting thread that's definitely worth checking out, especially for you, m04arch... could save you some time and money on future projects...http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=8173
Hey Pete, thanks for the info...ALWAYS looking for more resources! Thanks!For the the sleepers, we did use a 1/2" thick rubber U-boot to hold it off the concrete and cut holes in the riser face and filled the space with batts. All this was contained within the perimeter envelope and made for a great bass trap. Not as important for a woodshop but for a theater or studio, is a must!Thanks again for the info!
There is a Uk site called http://www.E-coustic .co.uk If you download the pdfs there is a lot of useful information and a number of diagrams
Could not get the sight up, and I'll try again later. Thaank you; FlipT
I've used this stuff on a commercial project. Good results, and you can cut, drill, anything you need. Kind of expensive, but I'd use it again.
Thank you ring.
When I built out my shop in the basement I used the plastic foam that is normally placed between the foundation and sill of a new home. It is cheap and about six inches wide, made up a slitting device that slits it into three pieces each a bit wider than a 2x4 on edge. Stapled that foam to all the joists, vertical 2x4s in the walls etc. Attached are some pictures of how it looked prior to installation of the sheet rock.
It is a surprisingly effective solution for cutting down on noise as it prevents the large sheets of sheet rock from setting up harmonic vibrations and transmitting it to the joists.
Basically cheap and effective.
Our ceiling is low. Can I apply your thinking between the joists and leave the joists exposed?
Thank you for your photos. They made the point.
Flip, I think HighFigh's suggestion of resilient track is your best bet.I think a layer of thin foam would do next to nothing to decouple the drywall from the framing system. All those screws/nails holding drywall firmly to the joists will still leave the ceiling vibrating like a drum head and transmitting sound to the rooms above. The problem is that the drywall can't vibrate independently from the joists.Resilient track in effect hangs drywall on a set of springs. You attach one face of the resilient track to the joists and the drywall to the other face. Sound vibrations transmitted to the drywall can set it in motion, but resilient track does not transmit much of that energy through to the joists/studs. The heavier a wall/ceiling material is, the more sound energy it takes to set it into vibration. 5/8" drywall is 25% heavier than 1/2", so it will absorb more sound energy. Double drywall absorbs twice the energy of single drywall.Stuffing the spaces between joists with sound-deadening insulation further reduces sound transmission through the air space between ceiling and sub-floor.
Thank you, thank you, thank you! I have learned enough to hear you.
"...I have learned enough to hear you."What, through all that sound deadening, sleep-inducing advice? :)
One other thing that seemed to help the noise... went to a farm and Ranch supply store and bought horse stall mats that were on sale.
These are heavy rubber about an inch thick and come in a 4 x 6 foot size.
These were placed under machinery that makes a lot of noise and it dampens the vibrations that are transmitted to the floor.
I was given some rubber flooring (about $30 per 3 foot sq.) which works wonders isolating duck and heavy tool sound transmission.
Again, thank you.
I'm just installing soundproofing right now, in the floor of an upstairs room over wooden joists with not much of a ceiling. Here's the UK site I used:
and I'm using their T60 product and "acoustic mineral wool". T60 is like a very thin layer of clay, very heavy, and I'm putting it on top of joists and below the floorboards. AMW is like extra-dense roof insulation, cut with a knife. I've only installed the AMW so far but it's already made a big difference. They have other products you can fix between the joists that work better. Probably not directly relevant to the US, but their data sheets are full of good ideas and hints.
The UK building regulations (equivalent to US "code") changed last year to require soundproofing in some buildings, so you'll find lots of good stuff on UK websites at the moment.
Excellent web sight! Now to find something locally and for perhaps less cost. I am aware that the job is pricey and I want to be realistic. For example: lots of pipes in a basement ceiling! And our florescent lighting fixtures are in the midst of all the joists.
Thank you for your help; Flip T
I just finished installing my soundproofed floor so I thought I'd post my conclusions.The T60 product from http://www.customaudiodesigns.co.uk/ is actually Tecsound S60:
I stapled it to the top of the joists, then screwed down floorboards through it. It was easy to lay.The Acoustic Mineral Wool is actually Knauf Rocksilk
but I'm not sure which version. It comes in semirigid slabs. I fixed it between the joists.It works! This solution cut conversations from the room below, previously clearly audible, to a dull mumble. On the whole, very satisfactory.The S60 product also has the advantages:
a) it's a vapour barrier (room below is a kitchen)
b) it's waterproof (spilled drinks don't cause drips downstairs)
c) it's draughproof (lots of cracks in these floorboards!)
d) it's a flexible mount. There's no direct wood-to-wood contact so the floor can't creak when you walk on it.I'm very happy with the overall result.Good luck!
I would have to staple the T60 between the floor joists. This seems inefficient and labor intensive with all the old pipes that come with a freshly renovated 130 year old home. Having said all that, I would like to get this behind me with reasonable success. In other words, I'll do the work...so I can work in the shop without delivering ear muffs to the second floor.
most borg stores or drywall suppliers have "accoustic channel" which is essentially a steel cross memeber mounted at right angles to yer ceiling joists. You lay in over that some r-6 batts of insulation (basically r-12 split in half) and attach the drywall to the channel
Even if you don't want to go for it, if yu have wood joists, it lets you get a faster leveller ceiling cause the freakin stuff is straight, so you can see exactly where yu gotta ship to maintain flatness. Cheap like borscht too.
methinks it's about a 50% reduction in sound transmission.
take a look at it.
I will check this out. Practicality takes thought.
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