Hello everyone, i’m fairly new here and i love tauntons. I was browsing around on ebay today and came across some wood for sale. The seller is trying to say there is a difference between a board foot and square foot. So i’m thinking the math is pretty much the same either way but he’s making it to be that any width board as long as it is 1 foot long would be a board foot. This is incorrect right? My math: a board 3 in wide by 4 foot long would be a board foot, am i right?
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Replies
Only if it is one inch thick. Board feet is three dimensional. Area is two dimensional. 144 cubic inches is a board foot. You calculated 144 square inches.
(width x length x thickness)/ 144 = board feet. All measurements in inches until the board foot number.
Dan
ok. so i oversimplified but i am basically correct assuming its an inch thick?
A board foot is a measure of volume, specifically 1/12th of a cubic foot. A square foot is a measure of area. Your board would be 1 board foot if it was 1" thick, 2 board feet if it's 2" thick, etc.
baddraw,
I think he is confusing linear ft with a board ft.
My two cents worth.
Bill D.
Quality Wood Chips
yeah i think so too, thanks for the input. btw its an auction for antique heart pine from and old mill that was supposedly built in 1887. He's asking $3.00 a bd ft (i'm thinking linear ft).
Edited 11/21/2009 9:08 pm ET by baddraw
Bad,
A board foot related to a volume of wood, a 1 foot square that is 1 inch thick. A square foot is a 2 dimensional measurement, length x width.
Yes, a board 48 inches long x 3 inches wide is 144 square inches, and were it 1" thick, would be a board foot. Were that 4 foot long stick 2" thick, it would be 2 board feet. 1/2" thick, well.... 1/2 a board foot.
So...per your Ebay situation, bidder beware. Find out if the stock is of uniform thickness, or ask for an accounting of the lot - 50% at 4/4, 30% at 6/4, etc.
Cheers,
Seth
For rough sawn my guys here mark out areas that are too messed up to use e.g., cracks at an angle, shakes, punky patches etc. and don't charge me for those even though they are of one plank.
Be sure to find out how much of the plank(s) are sound wood.
roc
Give me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
I think the others have set the math right for you. True a bf = 1"x12"x12' of wood but something else needs to be mentioned. It's also reffereng to (at least at all the places I've done busienss with) nominal thickness in the rough. So if I have a board that is 3/4"(thick finished milled by the supplier i.e. S2S or S4S) x 6"(wide) x 24" (long), I would still have 1 bf because I would need to do the math as (1" x 6" x 24" )/144 to get my BF.
Now as to the discussion of how someone gets the width part with a board in the rough can varry in width. Most of the dealers I've done business with only counts the narrowest part of the board as the width. So if I have a nice board and at it's narrowest part is 8" wide that would be considered the widest part and used for BF calculation. I had one potential vendor try to reverse that and I just laughed a left. I would not count checks either. My last supplier (had to move so I cant get it from him anymore) would measure past any check and start the measure there. He also gave me a lot of wood that was in fact 5/4" that he only charged me 4/4" prices for just because it was easer (in his words) to figure the total. Needless to say I bought a lot of volume from him! Anyway like others have said its quite simple math ( L" x W" X Thickness")/144 = BF. It's the interpretation of what to plug into the formula that gets murky. Also like others have said on EBAY definately buyer beware!
...Advice is a form of nostalgia. Dispensing it is a way of fishing the past from the disposal, wiping it off , painting over the ugly parts, and recycling it for more than it’s worth – lyrics from the song wear sunscreen
One lumber supplier I use measures the AVERAGE width.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
That would be ok. Kind of meets you in the middle. You get a bit and he does to. If he wants it to be a win/loose situation, I'd wonder in the back of my mind where else is he wanting to stick me....Advice is a form of nostalgia. Dispensing it is a way of fishing the past from the disposal, wiping it off , painting over the ugly parts, and recycling it for more than it’s worth – lyrics from the song wear sunscreen
i have found that a board foot is a loosely used term when buying lumber as it is meant to describe a piece of lumber at the mill after it is freshly sawn & like a 2 x 4 isent 2" x 4"
at one mill the 1" rough was 7/8" but cleaned up to 3/4" yet was called 1" rough
last week i bought some mahogany & it was called skip planed , a new one on me
buying lumber is a lot like buying a pig in a poke i find but if your in the game you might as well enjoy the ride for what its worth
Ps i have about 4500 bd ft of various kinds in my poke at the moment
Yeah its pretty much that way with everything these days, gone are the times when you got what you paid for and a handshake was all you needed to seal the deal. I mean geez look at all the different ways consumers get screwed these days, cell phones companies get to hide behind signal and well dont get me started. Even our government is in on the action, they seem to have forgotten they work for us not the other way around.
I have to disagree completely. The consumer has far more choice and option than ever before from what they buy to who they buy it from. Just because people don’t want to do the research necessary to make informed choices doesn’t make the vendor, marketer, retailer the bad guy. <!----><!----><!---->
Ok well after having worked for Wal-Mart and knowing how much mark-up there is on the consumer products they sell, I've realized that the consumer is getting screwed big time. I understand they have to make a profit, but exactly how much profit should they make? They spend very little on employees I can tell you that. And I find it very hard to understand 100% and higher markups.
I think this is turning into a can of worms I didn't really mean to open. My basic point was it would be nice to trust that you will get what you are paying your hard earned dollars for without having to spend hours upon hours researching whatever particular product to make sure you get your moneys worth before you buy. In others words there is far to much fine print out there.
That is called being an informed consumer; it is just part of life and requires some effort on our part to be good at it. It has always been that way; there was no “magic” time when people were more honest, that is a fallacy, and “caveat emptor” has been around since the days of the Romans. Trust is fleeting at best. <!----><!----><!---->
Ok, well lets go back to my original post then. How much research exactly do i need to do to know what the dimensions are in a board foot? Never mind that fact that the retailer in this instance is misrepresenting what that value is, and has replaced it with his own value for the sake of his own profit. Seems to me a board foot is a standard and is not open to interpretation for any reason. Am I right? i suppose one could find a way to argue it, but the fact remains it is a standard.
Board foot, inch, pound, quart, liter, etc, they are all measurements that are common and understood, I was taught those things in elementary school. As to the retailer you are referencing are you sure he even knew what a board foot is? Or are you just assuming that he was out to “make profit for his own sake”. Besides, what is wrong with profit? It is what makes the world go around… <!----><!----><!---->
Napie,
Yah, a bd ft is a bd ft. Ever deal with a lumber business that charged you for "kiln shrinkage"? I was once at a large lumber company's yard. The co mainly sold lumber by the boxcar load, but they had a retail outlet, where the lumber was scaled board by board when you picked it from the rack. A 4-1/8" wide board was charged as 5", as was a 4-7/8" one. When I challenged the salesman, he said that it was kiln shrinkage, the co had paid for a 5" board, when it was green, and so did I, after it was dry! Apparently, some of them boards were more green than others...
caveat emptor, indeed.
Ray
Yeah well i don't think kiln shrinkage applies here. We are talking about a guy thats telling me a board 3/4" x 6" x 12" would be a board foot. In reality, giving him benefit of a 1/4" its only half of a board foot. He's not surfacing or milling it down for me, he's not drying green lumber, its a piece of wood as is and its not a board foot.
They all charge for it, but most wisely include it in the per BF price instead of “fudging” the measurements.
What wal mart marks up on socks is not necessarily the same as what your lumberyard marks on boards. I'd be really surprised to find a lumber retailer who could sell a thing at a 100% markup. Real trucks dont have sparkplugs
Don’t confuse mark-up with profit, two totally different things. Wal-Mart has one of the lowest profit percentages among businesses today. Could they pay their employees more; sure, would they still be in business, not at all likely. People depend on them for low cost goods any increase in their cost structure would destroy their business model and they could just become Macy’s and the people that normally shop there could just go without. <!----><!----><!---->
Edited 11/25/2009 12:05 pm ET by Napie
Skip planning is very common; both of the guys I buy most of my stock from do it. I can see the grain of the lumber better and it saves some wear and tear on old Rockwell/Delta planer. It is a value add in my opinion. <!----><!----><!---->
All,
I can remember when a 2 x 4 was a full 1-3/4" by 3-3/4".
Haha
Ray
Having remodeled an 1895 farm house I can tell you that the standardization of framing lumber is one of the great innovations of the 20th century. I am not the least bit nostalgic for “real” 2x4’s (whatever that means), what never gets talked about is the huge supply of shims you need to get everything to work.<!----><!----><!---->
Way back when, you could cover a multitude of sins with changing the thickness of the plaster. When remodeling my house (1900 AD) I found one "2X4" stud that was 2.5" at the bottom but 1" at the top. I shimmed and chopped to get dry wall to fit over that one. Built with eighty year old white oak that you couldn't drive a nail into, it was a job.
Yeah, drywall is a lot less forgiving but I'll take it!
If the house you bought is from 1900 you got the new improved version mines from 1873 & stone
Yes, but they are both old. Mine does have some standardization that your's might not have - doors, windows and with your stone a bit easier to move. I had to move it off the interstate they were building about forty years ago.
mine came with about 200 meat rabbits as the building was being used as a barn
It looked so bad the realtor would not put his sign on it as he felt it was beneath his level of clientele & he was a country bumpkin
Bad, if you really want to get into confusing descriptions, go out and see how much firewood you get when you see what some people call a "cord" of wood! Even though it has a specfic demension people use the term to describe piles of wood of all sizes and descriptions.
Woody
No woody dont do it, dont get me started on that one. You are right it has a specific dimension but I guess some people cant read a simple tape measure. And were not talking about fractions of an inch, its in feet just plain old feet, not cubic feet or any thing complicated just plain simple feet.
Four feet by four feet by eight feet stacked tight, standard cord. Face cord, four feet by eight feet by stove cut length, (about 18-24 inches), pretty standard around here.
Timber is almost always sold by volume, not by surface measure.
For timber you are probably right, but i originally started this post because of lumber not timber, there is a difference.
(width x length x thickness)/ 144 = board feet. All measurements in inches until the board foot number.
Period. End of story. Standard. Carved in stone. Universally accepted.
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Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.~ Denis Diderot
I agree with you completely dgreen, but it seems this napie thinks this guy on ebay trying to tell me that a board of any width and any thickness as long as its a foot long is ok. Let the buyer beware he says, I need to do my research he says, I think he's(guy on ebay) a ripoff artist. I also think its a sad state when because I can't be johnny of the spot people think they can rip you off, sorry I think a mans word should be worth something. guess thats just not the case these days, and, sorry napie, but you are part of the problem because you accept it and make excuses about doing research and let the buyer beware. Its a cop-out.
“This Napie”?? I don’t believe I insulted you and I see no reason for you do so with me. But, since you started it, here we go. You were the one who came here not knowing a very common simple measurement, i.e. the board foot. And of course looking up very simple information seems to be quite beyond your understanding and most of your posts seem to prove it. Your position that the EBay seller is a crook is very indicative of an individual who uses blame to attempt to cover a lack of knowledge. Enjoy your employment situation, you seem well suited to it. Happy Thanksgiving.
You are shooting Napie for being the messenger of reality. Human nature is what it is, a responsible buyer will do his homework.
The way the market works is if you think you are not getting a fair deal then take your money elsewhere.
If the guy says a board foot is something other than what the standard specifies you don't have to do business with him.
I can't speak for Napie and don't often see eye to eye with him, but I would bet a dollar he has never copped out of anything in his adult life.
A board foot is a specific amount of wood. You can say a duck is an elephant, the reality is it's not. You don't have to buy a duck at elephant prices if you choose not to. If you choose to do so because it is a particulary fine specimen of duck and is worth elephant prices, you are free to do that also.
You are the one trying to pass off your failure to do basic learning as other peoples problem.
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Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.~ Denis Diderot
But that is rough cut, isn't it? I think in my life time that has been reduced twice. I know for sure it has been changed once. I don't feel too put out because it was made common knowledge. Whether the lumber mills did it for pure profit or for the fact that the lumber didn't need to be that robust, it makes no difference and if we need it we buy it.
A board foot is a board foot whether rough or finished.
You can put a pint of milk in a quart jar and sell it as a quart, when you get it home you will only have a pint of milk.
................................................
Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.~ Denis Diderot
Edited 11/25/2009 9:40 pm by dgreen
Ok, I apologize to napie.
He's been here a long time and contributed a lot. I'm sure he posted in the spirit of helping you. A read back through his past posts is worthwhile.
Some of the most abrasive here are a huge source of information.
Some (like me ) are a mixed bag.
Don't take anything too personally, and read back through peoples posts and you will be surprised what a great source of info and entertainment this place is.
I can tell you, having been on the giving and receiving end of sparring with Napie that he is worth knowing.
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Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.~ Denis Diderot
If you have trouble understanding the purchase of lumber try buying hay from a farmer
I think they have their own dictionary for all dealings & its unwritten ! LOL
No problem. I don’t intend to come across as abrasive but after many years as a business owner and observer of human nature I just see the world as it is not as I wish it to be and have little time for “it should be like this” because it ain’t ever gonna happen. People have to look out for themselves, no one else is going to do it for you, that’s just reality.
>A board foot is a board foot whether rough or finished.<
Just like in Oz when we went metric. Restaurants made a killing selling a metric dozen oysters. You got ten!!wotI started out with nothing...and I still have most of it left!
Sorry but that is not correct, timber is an industry standard term for solid wood products used world wide and it is always measured and sold by the BF in the imperial system or cubic meters in the metric system as a measure of volume. The term “timbers” can also be used for framing material that is over four inches thick versus lumber being less than that. All solid wood is sold by the BF at some point including stumpage fees even if it is later retailed by linier measure or per piece, or by weight in the case of ebony, pink ivory or some rosewoods.
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