I have a couple blades for my low angle jack – all A-2. However, I have been disappointed using the A-2 blade with a 25 degree bevel (for a 37 degree cutting angle). I have tried 2 different blades. The blade tends to crumble and chip very fast. Consequently, I’ve switched to 30 degree bevels for a 42 degree cutting angle. I’m wondering if the traditional O-1 blade may be a better option for the low cutting angles on the low angle / bevel-up planes. Any comments?
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Replies
Assuming the heat treatment is right , either of those should deal with normal timbers without chipping or crumbling, but bear in mind that a 25 degree bevel results in a relatively delicate edge.
What timbers are you working and are you planing end grain when you experience the problem? When planing end grain of particularly hard woods , using a 25 degree bevel , one should not "throw" the plane at the work: it is preferable to bring the edge up until you feel it contact the wood, then push firmly, and to use a fine cut.Even with wood like Jatoba you should easily be able to get a continuous end grain shaving with a big low angle plane using an iron honed at 25 degrees- without undue damage to it. This when it is nice to have a heavy plane, but I have lived quite happily with my vintage Record 51/2 and various Record or Stanley irons (many...) ,planing end grain of Iroko and others such as Wenge and Jatoba, although admittedly these irons are ground at 25 degrees and honed at 30 degrees.
Ayup, Philip, the bit I do not understand is the name we are using here. To my way of thinking, a jack plane is intended for heavier work and quick stock removal, so it should be capable of taking a heavier shaving than a smoother. Should we really be saying that "ordinary irons" still very much have a role to play? Sharpening is after all fairly easy.
EE, lud, I am not sure what tha be asking- can you clarify?Philip Marcou
To my way of thinking, a jack plane is intended for heavier work and quick stock removal, so it should be capable of taking a heavier shaving than a smoother. Should we really be saying that "ordinary irons" still very much have a role to play? Sharpening is after all fairly easy.
Ha! You should see the blade I am preparing (for the plane I am building)!!
The blade is 50mm (2") wide and 8mm thick ... all in D2. It took me 2 hours to grind a bevel using a belt sander and 40 grit belts. Talk about abrasion resistant!
I plan this to be a jack plane (ala Krenov), one that will laugh at Jarrah, Karri and She-oak.
Can it get sharp? The one I finished for a friend takes gossamer endgrain pine shavings.
Philip, didn't you have a plane for D2 blades at some point?
Regards from Perth
Derek
Derek,
Why so thick or is that a typo?(;) Is it to be b/u or b/d?
I use D2 for the S45 model and my M12 miter. I am keen on D2. Providing it has been properly heat treated I see no disadvantages in its use for woodworking applications when compared with other normal steels such as O1 and A2, and some advantages.
I am saying once and for all: it will perform better than them PROVIDED it has been correctly heat treated. Heat treatment cannot be done by Joe Average at home as he could with O1.It is no problem to sharpen with normal good quality oil stones, Japanese stones, water stones and diamond plates.
You will be into some diamond paste- should be ideal....
Did you grind that bevel on annealed D2 or was it in a hardened state?. Working it in its annealed state (drilling ,milling, wet grinding, is much the same as O1 in its annealed state, except that there can be some work hardening so blunt cutters are out.
(For what it is worth, if you had used a belt grinder instead of the belt sander it would have been much quicker....)
As a matter of interest: how do you know that the steel you have is D2? I got mine from Bohler Steel, Austria, the annealed strips are stamped with their name, but I asked the heat treaters to confirm that it was indeed D2 (one of the benefits of having this sort of job done by a professional company). I have heard that at one stage there were other manufacturers that off-loaded sub standard batches of this steel onto the market.
Philip Marcou
Edited 1/29/2008 1:18 am by philip
Hi Philip
That was not a typo - the steel is indeed 8mm (5/16") thick! This was not my choice, but the one that was decided by a group of stark mad Australians on the Ubeaut forum who got together for a group purchase. I went along to the tune of one blade out of curiosity. It is a monster! For comparison, my HNT Gordon planes have irons 1/4" thick/6mm).
It came from Bohler Uddeholm Australia in annealed form, then was sent off for professional heat treatment. I received a HARD steel blade (tested before and after grinding at 62.5 Rockwell). So I have been grinding it in its hardened state.
Incidentally, in addition to the belt sander I have just received a 10" bench grinder. I am just waiting on a suitable white wheel. The edge of this blade was polished on diamond paste.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Derek, at that thickness I assume it will be bevel up then? What possessed them/you to heat treat before grinding the bevel?
If I were faced with that predicament right now I would slap a new 60grit belt on that orange belt grinder and remove the bulk of the material free hand (after scribing some guide lines). I estimate that would take about 10 minutes and I would not need to cool it with water but may give some compressed air so that I don't have to hold it with gloves. Then I would refine it accurately on that surface grinder using the jig you saw. If I did not have the surface grinder I would set up a platten and angled table for the orange beast.
What influenced you to get a 10" bench grinder? Or rather, what do you want to do with it? I presume it is a high speed machine? Have you seen those linisher attachments that can be retro-fitted to bench grinders of suitable bulk?
Sorry about the subject deviation from the original poster but I believe this to be a happy feature of Knots (;).Philip Marcou
What possessed them/you to heat treat before grinding the bevel?
Don't tell me - tell THEM! I argued this point, and I thought that it was agreed, then this BLOCK of steel turns up! I wasn't sure whether to laugh or cry.
I removed 95% of the metal with the belt sander, and will do the remainder on the bench grinder as I want a hollow grind. It is going in a bevel down jack plane. As I said earlier, this plane with laugh at any wood .... ha .. ha!
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What bevel angle is best for D2 steel? Can one use 25 degrees, or should it go to 30 or 35 degrees?
What influenced you to get a 10" bench grinder? Or rather, what do you want to do with it?
I hollow grind all my bevel down plane blades for easy of freehand honing. Recently I purchased a Tormek as this allows me to grind to the very edge of the blade without burning the steel. When you do this the microbevel created is indeed micro. Here is an example ...
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Anyway, the downside of the Tormek is that it grinds very slowly. So, when a mate of mine bought a 10" high speed machine really cheaply, and I had a chance to play with it, I decided it would be a good partner for the Tormek (another 10" machine). Up till now my bench grinder has only had a 6" wheel.
Here they are together. I am still waiting on a white Norton 46 grit 1" wide wheel for this machine.
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Oh, why the flora? Because we are building and my workshop is now al fresco for the next 5 weeks. Fortunately there will not be any rain for months to come in Perth.
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Regards from PerthDerek
I have A2 irons in most of my planes (bevel up and down) all sharpened with 25 degree bevels (I hollow grind and do not use an additional microbevel since by hollow grinding the cutting edge is a microbevel). Chipping has not been a problem with my bevel down planes at all or with my LN BU Smoother. My LN BU Jack on the other hand nearly always chips before it gets dull.
Every once in awhile you're going to get an iron that is brittle (too hard) and they chip before they dull. If it's chipping before you get an acceptable amount of planing done between sharpenings replace the iron. If I hone the iron to my BU jack on MDF with buffing compound after the 8000 Norton stone it is less likely to chip. I don't know what you use to sharpen with, but I tend to think A2 irons require you to go one grit finer than the other steels. Also, I have found that if I do my final honing by hand pushing the iron side to side rather than forward and back in a honing guide I get a sharper, more durable edge that is less prone to chipping.
"Every once in awhile you're going to get an iron that is brittle (too hard) and they chip before they dull."
I have a 1" Japanese chisel that's like that. Most of the blade is fine, but a small area near one corner chips if you stare at it too hard.
-Steve
All, thanks for the info. By the way, today, this very day, I received my S20A (number 37) in the mail. I am about to order an extra blade or 2 from Lee Valley - in particular one for a shooting board with a 25 deg bevel. I have yet to decide on A-2 or O-1 for that role. That plane is a tank and I can see it performing awesome on a shooting board. I guess I can put away my painted wooded version.
As I read this thread, is it correct to assume O1 is high carbon steel? Also, I've looked at the Ashley Iles chisel blurbs, but the type of steel is not specified. Can anyone weigh in on this? Ray Iles specifies some of his plane blades to be high carbon steel, but he does not call them O1. He also supplies D2. Finally Phillip or anyone else with tool making metallurgical experience, have you any experience with S7 steel?
T.Z.
All hardenable steels that aren't otherwise differentiated (e.g., 400-series stainless steel, etc.) are high-carbon steels.
O1 is a traditional, general purpose tool steel. It's easy to work with and sharpens easily, but isn't all that wear-resistant, so it has to be resharpened relatively frequently. If a steel is described simply as "high-carbon steel," it's likely to be O1.
A2 has become sort of the de facto standard for the "better grade" of woodworking steels. It's more wear-resistant than O1, and holds an edge much longer, but it's also more work to sharpen.
D2 is still more wear-resistant, but is apparently a real bear to sharpen (I've never tried myself). It can be hardened to a higher degree than O1 or A2, and is used mostly in applications that require very long wear.
-Steve
Steve, and Tony,
I know nothing about S7. Is that it's AISI designation?
Re sharpening: I have not had any difficulty in sharpening either A2 or D2 using good quality oil stones such as Norton Bear, or the run of water stones.I can detect no difference in the actual sharpness achieved.
The composition of those three is fairly similar until you note that D2 , at 11.5% chrome has more than double the chrome content of A2, and O1 has only .5%.
O1 and A2 have the same carbon content: 1%, but D2 has 1.5%
Wear resistance is 4 ,6 and 8 respectively.
Toughness is 3, 4 and 2.Philip Marcou
I don't have any personal experience, but the data sheets say that S7 is an air- or oil-hardening shock-resistant (hence the "S") steel. It is relatively low in carbon (0.5%) and is thus only moderately hardenable (RC55). 3% Cr.
Regarding the "sharpenability" of the various steels: It's difficult to quantify, but my gut feeling is that the more chromium, the more resistance to being cut by the stone; it's as if the steel "rebounds" rather than being cut. This would be in keeping with the higher wear resistance of the high-Cr steels (not to mention the low machinability of most stainless steels). It's not that you can't sharpen them to the same degree; it just takes more effort.
Many years ago, I was given the task of machining a small part out of pure molybdenum. That was like chromium on steroids--gummy and brittle at the same time.
-Steve
Bevel down: so the *mouth will be huge, then.
Bevel angle: I would stay with 25degrees- if all is well D2 is tough enough even with a shallow hollow grind I would think.
That 10 inch item is a cheap one alright- have you confirmed that it has ball bearings rather than bushes ? (;). No doubt you will want to fit a decent tool post at some stage.
*So when is the ship to be launched then?Philip Marcou
Hi Philip,
Isn't "throwing" precisely what you do using a shooting board? Is this why you don't use one yourself? Also, on your planes you make the bed in 15 degree and 20 degree varieties, which makes the minimum cutting angle 45 degrees with a 25 degree bevel and no microbevel. What is your rationale for not using a 12 degree bed angle like Lee Valley and Lie Nielsen do? I've tried using your S20A on end grain, and it works marvelously, but it has a 30 degree bevel. Does the weight make up for the cutting angle here?
Best,
---Pedro
Thanks for the replies. I forgot that my older Lie-Nielsen low angle block plane originally came with an O-1 blade. I haven't used the blade in awhile. I put a 25 deg bevel and planed the end grain on a number of maple posts yesterday. Seemed to work pretty good, although planing maple end grain is tough for any blade. After planing the ends of 8 2x2 posts with the blade (with a re-sharpening halfway through), I did not see edge failure that I seem to encounter with the A-2 on my jack - although, I definitely knew when it required to be resharpened. I'll play around with the blade some more.
Pedro,
No- no "throwing"- especially when using shooting board. You still want to register the toe on the work and take a deliberate cut once you feel the blade contact the work.
Re your plane questions: the minimum cut angle could actually be 40degrees if one honed at 25 degrees- I don't advocate doing that but I know that some folk don't do a micro or secondary bevel at all.Presumably they don't mind how long it takes to sharpen, whereas I do and just want to get it sharp as soon as possible.
In fact, with a bevel up format, you could reduce the cutting angle to less than 40 degrees by honing a back bevel . If you honed 5 degrees back bevel you would land up with a cutting angle of 35 degrees, but there then would be a question of clearance, which is now only 10 degrees. All that is for those who want to play around and experiment to see what suits them best- I just stick to fairly standard formats.
There were many reasons for not doing a 12 degree bed, such as 1) I figured that a 15 degree bed would be more versatile when considered in conjunction with the blade options offered by Lee valley and less restrictive than a 12 degree 2)I already had visions of making a dedicated miter plane i.e a 12 degree one. 3) various technical reasons such as the lack of space at the rear between the tote , heel and the adjuster wheel. 4)there does exist the urge to not just follow blindly...
Weight does help , but it is not the only factor.A thick blade, firmly held by the cap, properly bedded will prevent chattering. Whilst you may happily plane the end grain of, say, Cherry in long curls with that plane in that set up you may find that another timber that is harder and tougher would be difficult : you would either have to take finer cuts or reduce the angle to make it easier to push. When you have worked with a wide range of diverse timbers you will see that there are some general rules-and some general rules: one is free to adopt methods that suit . I think that most of these "rules" are applicable to "average " timbers only. Philip Marcou
Interesting. I had thought the whole point of the shooting board was to get a running start. I guess this explains the nicks I've been getting on my BU jointer blade (25 degree primary bevel). I can't seem to put your plane on the shooting board as I am terrified of marring the sides. So I've been using it on endgrain only when the board is clamped vertically in my bench vise.Indeed, I have much to learn.
---Pedro
Pedro,
You must not cosset your Marcou or it will soon be in a display cabinet, with a boy attached to polish it each hour. No, no - grip the beast firmly and marr it all you need to, whilst taking lovely shavings. It looks better when covered in scratches and sweat stains.
Of course, one must take care not to drip sweat onto the nice sharp steel parts, as this interferes with the hardening of the steel and also the fine edge. I am thinking of getting a manly sweat band with "Marcou" writ on the front in large brass letters attached with rivets.
Women will faint with lust at the sight. Other woodworkers will mutter into their beer whilst turning green with envy. Small boys will be seen playing-out with home-made wooden Marcous, painted a gaudy yellow and silver.
You must use the thang and with gusto! After all, its only a plane. :-)
Lataxe, glancing suspiciously at shiny tools
When attaching the name with rivets do you recommend doing so while wearing the sweat band? If so how long a rivet do you recommend and is there a special source for them? (:>)
D,
The rivets are faux whilst the heedband grips with the aid of an old elasticated stocking cunningly concealed inside the cloth. One must simply take care not to allow the weight of the brass letters to pull the whole caboodle over the eyes, as this can hurt other parts as co-ordiantion of hand and eye is lost.
Lataxe
I am thinking of getting a manly sweat band with "Marcou" writ on the front in large brass letters attached with rivets.
Lataxe,
Sounds like you missed out being the first one on the block with a new Marcou. The later shipments (like mine) included a beautiful leather jacket with a double-dovetailed S-20 embroidered on the back (with flames eminating from the sole, of course) and the new Marcou logo across the top - "HELL'S PLANERS"
Of course, when I wear it out at the mall all the girls want to know if they can ride my "Marcou" ( I don't let them - I'm a bit selfish)
Lee
Yes, and a car is only a car. But when I bought my first (and only) car I parked in the far corner of every parking lot for months. I was terrified that someone parking next to it would dent it opening their door. I'm very careful with my things.The boy doesn't polish, but he loves using. Though I have to admit he prefers the bow saw to the Marcou. Children...You seem preoccupied with women lusting after you. I thought the English didn't go for such things? Stiff upper lip and some cucumber sandwiches, that's what you should focus on!Best,
---Pedro
Pedro, when you buy a new car it doesn't matter where you park it, someone's going to get you! When I bought my first new car, a 1967 Chevrolet Camaro RS, we went to the local shopping mall that evening. I parked that car so far out in the boonies that it took 2 hours to walk to the stores. Not really, but it seemed like it! There wasn't another car within 100 yards. When we came out there was a lone shopping cart smashed into the right front fender of the car just behind the wheel! You talk about sick!! 1967 and the repairs were over $400. That was a lot of money as the car with a lot of options was just $3267.
Just had to tell you about this when you talked about parking in the corner of the lot.
Bruce
I know what you mean. My car a brand new 330i with a lot of performance enhancements, got backed into in the parking lot at work. Thing is, my boss was the one who did it. He apologized and left it at that. I got stuck with repairing the dent out of my own pocket.
I think I would have probably have left him with a dent in his nose that he could fix on his dime too!! What an attitude!
Regarding your reply to Lataxe about cars hitting your motorcycle. I too have been a motorcyclists in the past for many years. My ride of choice was a Honda Goldwing. A deputy sheriff friend highly recommended carrying a shirt pocket of 1/2" ball bearings to fling at abusive 4 wheeler drivers. I never had the nerve to do that, but there were many times that I surely wished I had the ball bearings and the guts to pitch one or two! Our last ride was a 1991 Goldwing that we purchased new. We sold it and quit riding it in 1999 after an accident in West Virginia. It was really still in excellent shape; it only had 153,000 miles on the clock. Still ran like new and didn't use a drop of oil. I'm still kicking myself for selling it.
Bruce
Edited 1/30/2008 4:20 pm ET by Wingdoctor
That happened a year later when he stole the company from the other three founders (I was one of the three), and I quit. Much happier now :)
Pedro,
It was never the upper lip that was stiff - this is just a subtle euphemism, to save lady-blushes - as it that cucumber sandwich thang. Of course, now I am old so never actually think of these things. Speaking of them is just force of habit, you see.
Lataxe, a codger, wrinkly, gadger, gimmer or old scroat (according to the daughters and their ilk).
Good sir, the slipping sweat band problem is easily solved by the cunning insertion of two or three "pop" rivets in the front whilst it is being worn. It may be thought this might be damaging, but provided copper rivets are used and the stems are fully withdrawn through the back of the head, no staining or other visually detracting effects should be apparent on the band.
A word of warning, when lustrating it is as well to use a snorkal tube to avoid discomfort, and machine washes can cause nausea.
Pedro,
Running starts at woodwork are not advisable especially when you get some power equipment.A false start on the shaper may result in tears.
Seriously: during a past life I had occasion to observe how many different types of craftsmen worked in a factory. Those that worked at the bench with seemingly slow but deliberate movements were always the most productive and reliable. Them that were sawing , planing , hammering etc away at a hell of a pace made mistakes and self damages.
Heed the King of Galgate: a long as your shooting board is of decent wood and construction you will not damage the brass, especially as it is not the softer alloy often used-it is extruded brass alloy #380. Stray sandpaper grits are the usual culprits when soles etc get scratched-especially applicable to the ductile cast iron used nowadays.
The basic technique as I know it when planing very hard wood especially end grain is to register the toe then advance the plane until you feel the blade contact the wood-then push firmly and maintain downward pressure.No crashing the thing into the work. Assuming the plane is "right" you can plane woods like African Blackwood and Ironwood easily enough as long as the blade is capable of maintaining a working edge. I don't know what equivalent woods there are in USA and Australia, but I doubt if any are harder than the Ironwood, which may as well be petrified stuff. Unfortunately I don't have the botanical name for it.Philip Marcou
There are so many different and unrelated woods called "ironwood" that it's very hard to keep track of what's what. Even "pau ferro" is Portuguese for "iron wood."
I believe that what you guys call ironwood is Casuarina equisetifolia, which has been introduced into the US in Florida and Hawai'i. In Hawai'i, they call it "ironwood," but in Florida, they call it "Australian pine." The USDA plants database calls it "beach sheoak."
-Steve
Steve, I will post some pictures of this wood to see if it looks similar to what you are talking of.Philip Marcou
Steve, is this what you are talking about?Philip Marcou
The texture looks right. My personal experience with Casuarina is from a very long time ago, and I think the wood I saw then was comparable. However, the only photos I can find on the web, such as this one, show a much lighter wood (although, again, the texture seems right).
There are several related species in the genus, so that may be the difference. Then again, the name "ironwood" is so overloaded that you never really know.
-Steve
Talking about iron wood, there is tielimu (iron wood) that is often used in classical Chinese hardwood furniture.
The cutting boards you commonly find in your local Asian grocery store are often made of gangmu (another name for iron wood). Both types of ironwood are supposedly not as dense as zitan a rather rare wood that some collectors consider that pinnacle of classical Chinese hardwood furniture.
Makes you wonder how the 15th century carpenters worked these woods without modern steel.---
Chris Scholz
Galoot-Tools
Thank you wise man!
I guess I was mislead by the name of the technique. Shooting does imply some velocity and force. I will do as you suggest, thanks.You mentioned D2 earlier, any plans to introduce some D2 blades for my S20A?
---Pedro
Pedro,
I believe the etymology of "shooting" is from "chuting", as in running the plane in a chute or guideway. Of course I should google it to get you a definitive definition but I am feeling lazy just now. :-)
As to the motoring car, I have developed a disdain for it because of years as a cyclist. Them motorists were the enemy and their chrome bombs merely a reason to laugh at their obsessive fondness for a tin organ-substitute - or so we opined as we rode down the lanes with a hurrying hooter on our back wheels.
Of course, now I have a nice red motor vehicle myself, of thrusting aspect (no tail fins though). I try to be nice to cyclists, despite the tendency to have my hormones stimulated by the throb of the engine as I whizz along. The antidote is to use the bicycle still for all the short journeys,whilst wondering at the carelessness of the motoring public at large.
"I must not act lke them folk", I tell myself as I avoid another Albert overtaking me with 3mm to spare as he hoots toad-like at the world, especially pedestrians lacking a rapid gait as they cross the road.
I take pride in never washing the thng. Washing a car somehow seems a waste of one's single precious lifetime. I am ashamed, though, to admit the ladywife does so, as she is tidy and well brought up.
Lataxe
Like you I love to cycle. But my bicycle sleeps at night on a wooden wall rack with felt pads to keep it from getting scratched, and I only ride it on nice roads lest I ding any lovely carbon fiber bits. I'm starting to sound obsessive, which I don't think I am. My wife might disagree though since she finds it hysterical that I alphabetize all of the books on the various bookshelves around the house.In any case motorists are unbearable. They all think the roads were built just for them, and feel comfortable running bikes and motorbikes off the road. I got run down twice in LA, back when I used to ride racing bikes. After totaling the second motorcycle I switched to bicycles and found they're just as dangerous, but you don't have the acceleration to get you out of harm's way anymore. Now that I'm in the country it's not so bad.Of course motorists might not get so close to you if you threw on old stanley plane through their windshield once in a while. Carradice makes some nice bags for carrying these incentivisers.
A2 steel is not recommended to be bevelled below 30 degrees as it is reputed to chip. Lie Nielsen chisels (made in A2) were made with 25 degree bevels when they were first manufactured, and they subsequenty changed to 30 degrees after it became apparent that the blades were not holding up at this angle. Rob Lee (at Lee Valley) recommended O1 for the low angle (25 degrees) setting on the BU planes. Yet O1 has only recently been available and originally all LV (and LN) BU planes were sold with A2 blades.
Based on this, the ideal is to have O1 for the low angle setting and A2 for higher angles.
In practice I have never had a A2 blade chip. All my BU planes are by Veritas (LV). My LA Jack is used on a shooting board and has to deal with very hard end grain, such as Jarrah and She-oak.
The other issue is that there is no rule set in concrete that your low angle bevel must be 25 degrees. I have used high angles quite happily. You do ge a smoother cut with the LA option, but they all work.
Regards from Perth
Derek
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