Replies

1. 
   Dev_Emch | Mar 16, 2002 04:46am | #1

   *
   How about a swiss army knife? In all the years I have been at it, I have yet to see a good multi purpose tool. If your talking about machines, you must be talking about machines like the robland x-31 and the newer felder combos. Nice work and design, but I still prefer discrete, dedicated machines.

1. 
   Frenchy_Dampier | Mar 16, 2002 07:24am | #2

   *Don't, If you need to cut something and then spend time swapping over for the next step, you'll start to hate yourself. The process of woodworking isn't well suited to those kinda tools. I know several guys with them and they tend to leave it set up in one configuation and use it that way all of the time. Then they buy the other equipment. Nobody uses them (after the second project) by switching between funtions. What's their appeal? Space, price, lack of knowledge?

1. 
   gpwestmoreland | Mar 16, 2002 07:45am | #3

   *Bill, I couldn't sum it up any better than Frenchy did. I learned woodworking on a Shopsmith 22 years ago, but quickly got tired of switching between different modes. I would recommend these machines only to someone with very limited space and unlimited patience. I'll give Shopsmith this: they do produce a good quality machine and stand behind it. I still have mine; it's been set up as a drill press (&infrequent lathe) for 16 years. GP

1. 
   hotsawdust* | Mar 16, 2002 05:11pm | #4

   *Welllllll....aren't we on our high horses. I'll hop on mine I guess. I use a combo machine all day long, every day, and I don't hate myself. Best thing I ever did to get it. I'm not sure if BillC is talking about a Shopsmith type machine, and I have to admit I've never pressed the start button on one of those, but its a long way way from that to my Felder. If anything, I think using a combo machine of this sort focuses your work practice because it encourages you to work in a methodical rather than a haphazard manner. In any case most changeovers on this machine take less than 1 minute, which really doesn't add up to much when compared to coffee breaks. The only exception is setting up the shaper, which takes about 5 minutes. I've never worked on a stand alone shaper, but my guess is it doesnt take much less time. When the shaper is set up, you cant use the tablesaw without taking it down, which can be a problem (well, it has been once for me in the past 3 years.) I would not get one if I expected to run a more than one person (or maybe two person) shop, for obvious reasons.Bill, I would recommend a Felder for a couple of reasons: first, they are built much like the fabled sh*thouse of brick, and second the Felder USA people seem to be very customer and service friendly, unlike another company you sometimes hear griping about. My machine was bought used and they haven't seen much money from me, but they have always been very helpful when I've had to call them with questions. If you can find a used machine they are a very good value because of thier solid construction: I have a 1984 model and I wouldn't be surprised if I break down before it does. If you have more specific questions I'd be glad to answer them.Good luck and happy woodworking regardless of your decision...

1. 
   BillC_ | Mar 18, 2002 06:54pm | #5

   *Thanks for all of your input! It's amazing how the same issue can solicate completely different responses, definately food for thought. My main reason, which I should have mentioned, is space limitation. I was getting tired of purchasing downsized tools or no tool at all (lathe for example) because of MY space problem.Thanks again,Bill

2. 
   sbonder | Mar 20, 2002 11:24pm | #6

   There is a MAJOR difference between a Shopsmith type combo machine and a Felder/Hammer/ Altendorf, etc.   I did a short article on my transition from almost all Delta stuff to a Felder.  Overall, I am very happy.  Each component is far better that the Delta stuff it replaced.  Set up time is truly minimal. 

   You will learn to work slightly differently, but that is inherent in the use of a combo machine.  You will also be working SAFER, which is well worth considering.  I'm happy to answer questions or, if you are in my area (Atlanta) let you see my Felder. 

   Scott

3. 
   user-394086 | Mar 21, 2002 01:05am | #7

   I have a Shopsmith as my main machine and I like it except for one thing: the tablesaw. I'm considering replacing that function of it with a Jet contractor's saw. The reason is that the tables are big enough. If you ask a Shopsmith salesman, he will tell you that since it includes three accessory tables, it has a bigger overall table than any stationary saw. In that respect, he's right. However, the most important dimension on a tablesaw is the amount of infeed room in front of the blade. The Shopsmith is lacking here. Also, if you want to rip anything wider than 8", you have to move the rip fence to one of the accessory tables. This means that the rip fence is attached to separate rails. It's really hard to keep everything aligned properly. It is a huge problem, and one that will make you feel like you have to check the alignment before every cut.

   The changeover times don't bother me so much. They're quick, and can be greatly minimized by efficient workflow. However, when you're working from a plan, they give the order as if you had all stationary tools. Sometimes, there's a good reason for this, such as using one piece as a reference for another.

   Working space: You can't beat the Shopsmith in this aspect, and I suspect this is where they get most of their sales. How else are you going to get a tablesaw, drill press, lathe, and disc sander into an area the size of a motorcycle? If you add a bandsaw, planer, and jointer, it doesn't get too much bigger.

   The other tools/functions included on the Shopsmith are outstanding. The disc sander will be at the same angle you just sawed something at and has variable speed capability. The drill press has a large tilting table and a rip fence. (although it doesn't go any slower than about 500 rpm) The lathe is variable speed up to the max speed of the machine. I don't think there is any other machine that makes doweling as easy, as a Shopsmith does either.

   Don't buy one new. I did, and I really got screwed. It's a nice machine, but not worth $3,100. You can nice ones used for $800 to $2,000 on ebay. The $2,000 ones usually include a bandsaw and other things with them.

   If you are considering one as a tablesaw, forget it. For the other functions, it's pretty darn good. One last thing; their prices for attachments are highway robbery. $500 for an 11" bandsaw? I think not. $1,200 for a 12" planer? You must be sick.

4. 
   JHerbel55 | Mar 21, 2002 01:18am | #8

   Bill,

   I don't know much of anything about combo machines, but it just so happens that yesterday a retired trim carpenter whom I've bought (and was given) many handplanes from, told me that he will have to sell his Shopsmith due to diminishing eyesight. It looks to be in mint condition. He wants $1500 and you would probably have to pick it up(Kansas). If this interests you, I could put you in touch with him.

2. 
   gwcarpenter | Mar 22, 2002 03:53pm | #9

   Bill, as Hot Sawdust said, it comes down to work practices, and quality of tool.

   I've not used any of the upper quality brands, but swore off the Shopsmith after seeing a friend use one.

   Seems the Felder gets good marks.

   Now, you problem of swapping set-up wouldn't be less if you had one work area, and three or four dedicated machines.

   1) Roll one out of the way.

   2) Roll the next out of the corner.

   3) Park the first machine in the space used by the second.

   4) Set the second machine into the work area.

   5) Set-up any outfeed rollers/table extension/power/lighting/etc...

   Learn to make five table legs, not four. That way when one blows-up

   while mortising, you don't have to switch from Drill/Mill to Saw.

   Sooner or later, you'd have to make one leg... or six... as your spare

   parts will accumulate into another project, half-done!

   Shop wisely, perhaps a trip to the used tool section of Woodweb

   (www.woodweb.com) would help.

   -gwc

1. 
   MikeK50 | Mar 23, 2002 04:43am | #10

   The best choice for a hobbyist woodworker in a multi-use tool is the Shopsmith, IMHO.  The Felder is a fine machine, but too expensivve for most of us.  However, the Shopsmith is pricey these days too.  If you are serious about the Shopsmith, I would look for a used one.  You can find them with a myriad of accessories on EBay and other used sources at very attractive prices.  The Shopsmith is U.S. made and of very good quality and design.  I have never had a problem with any of the SS tools I have.

   I started woodworking with a Shopsmith a dozen years ago.  It produces very good results and I have made some fine projects on it.  However, like many other have already expressed, I got tired of changing the set-ups.  While the table saw function is fine for small pieces, it is very cumbersome on large pieces.  The table height is too high and in order to cut at an angle, you need to tilt the table, which is very difficult on large work pieces.

   I finally upgraded to a Powermatic cabinet saw and I wish I did it sooner.  I still have the Shopsmith and intend to use it primarliy for the 34" lathe, the 12" disc sander and the horizontal drill press function which is very impressive.  I just bought a Delta 16 1/2" drill press I am going to buy a new band saw and jointer.  I have worked around the space issue in my two-car garage buy putting all of my tools on wheels.  It is still a hassle, but not as much as swapping tool set-ups.

   I'll sell the Shopsmith band saw and jointer, which work very well for their limited size.

   If space is a serious limitation, then the Shopsmith is a good way to go.  I would not buy one of the imported look-alikes.  

   Mike   

3. 
   BenchMarkPhil | Mar 23, 2002 03:45pm | #11

   I have a 2 in one combination tools and some of the information on my web site may be of interest to you.

   PMB

   http://benchmark.20m.com

4. 
   wcperry4 | Mar 23, 2002 06:24pm | #12

   Re the 5-In-One-Tool question, way back when I was a teenager I wanted to buy a stereo system.  Those were the days of one large cabinet containing several items (viz:  record changer, radio, and maybe a tv).  I quickly found the quality of these all in one's just couldn't match what I saw in the components when purchased seperately.  In their day RCA, Philco, Stromberg-Carlson and the lot put out great products.  But I found they just couldn't cut the mustard when compared to an Onkyo receiver paired with a Dual record changer, a Teac tape deck and Bose speakers.  I've applied this bit of knowledge to every purchase I've made since.  Woodworking tools have proved this theory to my satisfaction several times over.

   My father has a Shop-smith.  He's had it for years.  He, like you, is space restricted so I guess it works for him.  But every time he has a special project to work on he comes to my garage (especially for the Delta table saw).  The one thing about the Shop-smith that has always bothered me (and exasperated him) is the speed dial thing.  Yea, it's great to be able to change speeds and sometimes for safety reasons it's a necessity.  But after several trips to the closest repair center with damaged motors he was told (by Shop-smith) that he should always start the motor (whatever the configuration) at it's slowest speed, bring it up to operating speed, do his operation, drop the speed, and only then turn off the motor.   Try doing this a few times and I guarantee you'll be saying some unkind things about your 5-in-1.

   I 've read the other feedbacks to your question.  The idea about tools-on-wheels works really well.  Also consider the corners in your shop.  I've seen plans for "lazy-susan" type cabinets.  You can buy table top tools (band saw, drill press, grinder, sander) and have all of em attached to one surface.  A simple locking mechanism holds the table in place while you use the tool at hand.  Then unlock the table and rotate the next tool into position.  It's a great space saver.  Also, cabinets can me made with inserts that can be swapped.  Now it's a planner, now it's a table saw, now a chop saw.  The possibilities are endless.

   I'd think twice about it before I bought a 5-in-1.

   Bill 

5. 
   jonweis59923 | Mar 23, 2002 07:21pm | #13

   Bill....

   I guess I'll chime in here and give you another opinion on "multi-function" machines.  I have had the Robland X-31 combo machine for a couple of years now and am very satisfied with it!  I don't know if space is a concern for you but the combo machine does provide a much smaller "footprint" in the shop as campared to individual machines.  (This was not a problem for me as my shop size is 30x30) Secondly, purchasing individual machines with the capabilities of the Roblands 3-3hp motors which power the 10" saw, 12" planer, 12" joiner, shaper and mortising machine would cost much much more than the price of the Robland's new price and even more if you purchase a used machine (which I did).

   Now as to change over times.  This is really a non issue! Once familiar with the machine, changing functions is a matter of minits and totally painless.  As stated in the other message from the owner of the Felder, it's mearly a matter of pre planning and adopting a system of steps to the various machining tasks.  In my opinion this is far easier than hap-hazardly jumping from one step to the other and lot's more efficient use of your time in the shop.

   I might recomend that you wonder over to Yahoo groups and take a look at both the Felder and Robland groups and just "lurk" for awhile and see what owners of these machines have to say.  It's an honest discussion with some "gripes" as well as praises and you might get a better feel of both from an owners perspective....

   Jon

   Knot's to you

   http://WWW.wood-workers.com/~jonweis