I am to visit a local business on Thursday to look at his new office space and discuss shelving with him. In talking with the owner, he wants the cases about 7′ tall. He wants a total run of 42′ of bookcases and they will stand alone without being against a wall where they can be secured.
Here is my question: He only needs the shelves to be 11″ deep and does not want them back to back. I see a safety disaster with a 13″ wide tall bookcase not supported by a wall.
TO any of you that have built such cases for offices, such as legal offices, how did you do it when the back is exposed so that it can be tall and safe?
Thanks for reading and your anticipated comments,
Sid
Replies
sjscat,
I can't answer your woodworkingquestion, but the overwhelming question (at least to me ) that begs to be asked is WHY? Have they not heard that those books are on DVDs? CDs? The internet?
Alan - planesaw
It is a commercial flooring seller and installer. These are for sample books.
i have done a similar install, but for a commercial store, and we had a hollow at the bottom which fit over a cleat hilti gunned to the floor., and the shelves atached to the cleat...plus they were attached together, and to a wall at one end..probably not an option for you.his paramaters don't sound too realistic.even attached together, a run that long tipping over would be a massive disaster and lord help anyone in the way.wish i could be more help, but freestanding sounds unwise.... goodluck and don't give up....we are with you...Mike
Attached together with Chicago bolts?
pardon the terminology, but i was told they were "sex" bolts...geez...can i print that in here? i suppose because of the male and female parts....just hex drive but they look the same from both sides once installed..maybe they are chicago bolts.....they work pretty well and look ok too.....
One in the same.
Fasten them to the floor. Unless you're in California (earthquake country), you can fasten them sufficiently well that people aren't going to be able to knock them over.
Or you could put an occasional brace to the ceiling. Conceptually, put a 2x4 up one side of a bookshelf module every eight feet or so, and fasten the top of it to the ceiling. It won't be very obvious.
Or do both -- bolts to the floor, and an occasional strut to the ceiling.
Would the owner let you zig-zag the shelving a bit? It would add stability, and might relieve the look of 42' of shelving.
Sid ,
I'm guessing you will have a 1/2" or 3/4" finished back right ?
What type of floor is it a slab or wood framed ?
You can run a line of floor cleats one in the front and one in the back and build the base to accommodate the cleats .
Fasten the case sides together and you can screw through the face and back into the cleats and make a base molding to cover your tracks .
Or , make a continuous toe kick assembly and fasten it to the floor then screw down through the bottoms of the cases or just use trim head screws and be done .
hope this helps
dusty,aboxmaker
I hear the suggestions to "cleat them to the floor" - but, I would be concerned about uplift of the flooring. After all, If the floor is nothing more than conventional T & G it does not have much hold-down strength.
Frosty
"I sometimes think we consider the good fortune of the early bird and overlook the bad fortune of the early worm." FDR - 1922
You're right, the flooring isn't structural. The fastenings to the floor go to whatever the structural part of the floor is. If it is concrete, tapcon to it. If it is wood, screw to it.
Since this is commercial space, the local JHA may have some requirements for furnishings. The customers liability insurance carrier may also have some thoughts on this, too.
If there's an architect involved, they may be of some help, as well.
I don't know if your bookcase design permits,
If you can't secure them to the floor, you could build a false-bottom-like area in the bottom of the cases, then fill it with sandbags, concreate, old dumbells, etc. might do the trick without having to have the cases permanently secured.
A couple things to keep in mind. The lever action of the bookcase is going to be extreme, add in the heavy sample books, the client is talking about and you have a massive issue. It would take a heck of a system to hold this from tipping over if it ever started to move. And at 7' tall you may see some people leaning against them or such as they try to get to the upper shelf (not everyone can reach up that high) or just leaning stuff against the back sides. I have a China cabinet that is about that size (height and depth) and the thing is tippy beyond words. I have it bolted to the wall it is against.
As for the idea of securing it to structure, this is better but you still have the issue of hold down, as most thing will pull out if given enough effort, unless you can bolt though and get to the underside of the floor. And as for the idea of adding more weight down low to help with the center of gravity, this is a good idea, that should be avoided at all costs. We are talking a very long, and tall book case, and the weight of this (and this is a sample books of flooring) will extreme, to the point of needing to be carefully about the structure of the floor. Adding even more weight would be very dangerous unless this thing sits on a slab. And woe be it if this sits parallel to a floor joist!
Doug M
I'd look at making steel support stanchions that go between the bookcases, and are secured back into the floor. You will probably need to have an engineer do the actual sizing, to meet any seismic loading requirements you may have.
I don't see any indication of what area of the country you are in but I would think that OSHA requirements can't be that different across the country. Of course, I am in California and things are pretty strict here but I would think that seismic concerns would dictate pretty standard requirements. At a bare minimum there should be seismic bracing installed through the flooring either into concrete or the supporting joists depending on the nature of the building. If possible, bracing should also run to the ceiling joists. Assuming shelving sections of three feet and given a height of seven feet there would probably be as many as seven or eight shelves in each section. If fully packed this could mean each section could weigh as much as six hundred pounds (possibly more) This means that unless this installation is going in the ground floor of a cement slab building, you have serious structural issues to deal with. As someone has already mentioned, the leverage effect if the shelves were stressed one way or the other could and probably would be catastrophic. And trust me, there will be stress. I have seen more than a few lazy goofs physically climb the shelves trying to reach a book just out of reach. I have been involved with numerous shelving installations in libraries, offices and stores and given the height and length of the run you describe, either I would talk the customer into rethinking the layout or I would walk away from the job. It's either that or take out some really good liability insurance. And just from a practicality point, other than to serve double duty as a room divider, why would you want to land a 7 foot tall, 1 foot by 42 foot structure in the middle of a room? It seems an awfully wasteful use of floor space since the books would only be accessible from one side.
All of you lay out some excellent points. I am in Kansas in the Kansas City area. I am meeting the business owner tomorrow and will see what he needs and inspect the property. I will attempt to get him to go with lower cases that are back to back. I will not do a 13" wide case 7" tall. I have no desire to deal with the potential ramifications of that!As to the floor it is to be attached to I will check but most in the area he is in are concrete slabs.I will update in a day or two.Again, thank you all!-Sid
First a caution: I have a friend who was in the way when a big bookcase came down; he's living with back injuries that will last him the rest of his life. I wouldn't take a chance on anything I wasn't sure of.
Second, I'd have to say this is one of those opportunites to get out of the box and do something really interesting. First thing that came to my mind was an oriental twist that would involve securing the cases to floor-to-ceiling chains like those used like downspouts to chanel water from the roof. You could use an appropriate motif at the top and bottom - say a neat group of stones at the bottom to hide the bolt that holds the chain taught at the floor. If the structure is adequate, the cases could actually be suspended and not touch the floor. I'm sure there are similar ideas that would fit into the clients decor once you kick the door open. Only thing I'd do for piece of mind is check your ideas with a structural engineer if you have one around.
Have fun!
Verne
The building has a drop ceiling but a concrete floor. I do not know about chains! I can probably convince the guy to lower the cases if need be.
Cut nice round holes in the drop ceiling and run the chains or similar supports to the structural members up above. If done properly, it could be a nice architectural detail.
V
So it is a concrete floor. Is this floor on a gravel base or is there another story below.
one story building. Typical newer office/light industrial area.I have a brother in law who is an architect in St. Louis, MO. I am in the KC area in Kansas but he will look up some earthquake criteria for me tomorrow when he is at work. The typical ways people have tall heavy objects seem to involve engineers and steel supports fastened to floors.BTW: thanks for the comments.
Screw all thread into the floor between each "bookcase" and up behond the top of the sides. Run a steel plate linking each rod together and bolt down.
I think this will stop it moving without some real pushing.
I have addressed this issue in law offices. It's usually dealt with by erecting several intermediate columns to fasten the cases to.
However, be aware that you may also face structural problems with the floor on this project. The building engineers were always consulted to assess the floor loading issues since bookcases can easily exceed the design capacity of normal commercial flooring structures. In many instances, especially in older buildings, against the wall was the only place the engineers would allow bookcases like this.
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
I had my meeting postponed until Monday, the 29th. Here is what I found: He wants the bookcases to be an "L" formation that enclose two other walls. There will be a 4' passageway area into the sample book section. I convinced him that it is very dangerous to have freestanding bookcases 7' high and 1' deep!. He is ok with doubling the bookcases so I have 2' of bookcases in a row. Following me? Freestanding cases 7' high but a 2' floor base area.These are to be more functional than works of art. He wanted lighter colored wood so I can get some rotary cut all white Maple veneer core 3/4" plywood in AB Cabinet grade for 48.40 a sheet delivered. Cabinet grade is a small defect on one side of the ply. I have used this stuff before with Red Oak and for most purposes it is a good deal. The Maple 1/4" B4 is 23.95 a sheet. I plan to screw it together, staple on the backs into 1/4" rabbits and fastcap the few visible screws. Most of the cabinets will be screwed together so all screw heads will be covered. I plan on using 7' zinc standards. It will have a flush toe kick and veneer tape used on the showing plywood edges.Not a work of art but usable. Also, I found that 30" of books like he has weighs about 20 lbs. Plywood with banding should be sufficient.
For the corner where two bookcases meet I plan on using a 2x2' cube 7' high and tie in both legs of the L there. Any better ideas?This will be 48 linear feet of cabinets (or 24' with them back to back). He wants the project under $6000. Supplies will cost about $1800. Comments?Thanks Again,
Sid
in stead of the fast caps, i would veneer the exposed ends.it's not that hard and looks much better.on such a large project , the few ends required can easily be absorbed in the cost and the end result is much cleaner.just my 2 cents.
I am currently involved in a project which includes offices and a laboratory as well as a production area.The building will be concrete but the paper library and the sample library have required special consideration due to the very high floor loadings they will impose.I would advise getting some advice even in this case, where the building is a single storey. The slab will have been designed to a specific loading and could crack if this is exceeded. The ground under the slab might not be solid bedrock.
Sounds like it should work since, if I understand your description, the one end will be fastened to a wall and the other stabilized by the "L", right? I'd still tapcon the base into the floor from inside the toekicks just for added stability and be sure of my connections between the units -- the more rigid the better.
I've not had good success with veneer tape on edges where they get scraped, bumped, etc. as they would on a bookshelf -- they tend to loosen, split and peel off. I'd use a solid nosing. You can keep it a bit wide and install it flush on top and let it overhang a bit on the bottom -- saves a few steps and some time that it would take trying to match both sides.
As for the corner cube, I'd probably just run one side long, fasten the other to it's back and be done with it -- less work.
With careful layout and planning, you may actually make a few bucks on this job. ;-)
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
If you can make each cabinet the same size, or a max of two sizes for "looks".
Make the shelves less depth than the sides to avoid odd looking overlaps.
If you plywood is 48 x 96 then size your pieces just under at 11 7/8" not 12". If you plywood is 48.5 x 96.5 then you can use the full size. Use pocket screws at the ends where screws will show.
Bolt to the floor where you can. Clip on toe kick to cover the screws.
This is a lot of edge banding, do you have access to a edge bander?
Is the plywood prefinished? If so it will save you lots of time!
Edited 12/31/2008 9:52 am ET by USAnigel
Hi Sid ,
The newer formation sounds much better , I see little problem of tipping over when back to back .
On the few finished ends I would build the way you normally do filled pin holes or as was said apply an end panel.
Is any solid wood to be used for facings or bandings or only edge tape , how about the flush toe is that wood ?
I did not see you mention any finish , will you pre finish these units ?
Is the total cost of all materials minus overhead included in the $1800 ?
The way I see it each unit will take at least 1 1/4 sheet of 3/4" and a full sheet of 1/4" to get 30" wide backs ,imo a lot of waste ,to keep the price down I would consider placing a back rail at a point to run the backs side ways and splice them together on this non art project , when the shelves are full little of the back shows .
good luck dusty
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