Replies

1. 
   heartwould | Jul 28, 2008 05:09pm | #1

   While mulling over the same decision as you regarding a table saw, I have really searched the 'net for information. About the only real advantage to the PM seems to be the fact that it is "Made in the USA" (if that is still an advantage). Of course I would also love to have the SawStop, but an accurate cut with a good blade is what we want, and by all of the accounts that I have found the Grizzly model you are looking at does the job quite well. I just don't see the advantage of spending the extra money for the PM over the Griz.
   You may also want to consider the Grizzly line of band saws. They, too seem to get very good reviews, as do their spiral jointers and planers. A great selling point is the excellent customer service reputation the folks at Grizzly have.
   Here is a link to just one of the many discussions I've checked out:
   http://lumberjocks.com/topics/486

1. 
   TWG | Jul 28, 2008 05:13pm | #2

   Thanks for the reply. 

   The PM2000s are also built in China, I don't know about the PM66.  And yes, I am very happy with my Grizzly spiral jointer.

2. 
   bones | Jul 28, 2008 05:48pm | #3

   I have the 1023slx and have had it for several years now. It's a great saw and  has done everything I could ask it to do.  Even moving it half way across the states (movers not me), it is still just as accurate as new.  I've not looked in a while but if thats the one with the riving knive it will be sweet.  The PM is nice too. I looked at it for a long time at Woodcraft.  I liked some of the features, but is it that much better, that's  a personal decision.  I've also looked at the saw stop and it's extremely nice.  I would love to have one, but the cost is a little too much for me.  If money were no object and I was looking again, I'd go with the sawstop.  I'm not and money is an object so my biased opinion would be for the grizz.  I also have the griz 17" BS, 12" jointer and horizontal boring machine.  Green is fine with me. 

   Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases:
   If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it.
   And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
   
3. 
   philip_r | Jul 28, 2008 08:26pm | #4

   I recently upgraded my DeWalt Hybrid with a SawStop.  Moving from a contractor's saw - up to any cabinet saw - will be a huge upgrade.  I was amazed at the difference in dust collection, stability and power.

   I suggest purchasing a saw with a riving knife.  For years, I used  Merlin splitter.  While it worked great, it is absolutely nothing compared to a riving knife.  Assuming I never activate the SS break, the riving knife is the best feature.

   It looks like you could get the http://www.grizzly.com/products/10-Heavy-Duty-Cabinet-Table-Saw-With-Riving-Knife/G0651 for $1,841.50.  Yes, it is a bit more... but it comes packed with features and still leaves a little extra $$$ for other tools!

   As for Griz, I have a 10" SC jointer and I'm planning on purchasing the http://www.grizzly.com/products/Extreme-Series-15-Planer-w-Spiral-Cutterhead/G1021X2 next year.  I just wish they had a store in Colorado :0(

1. 
   TWG | Jul 29, 2008 12:32am | #5

   The riving knife and internal mobility are my favorite parts of the PM.I just don't know if the PM2000 will increase productivity or outlast the Grizzly to such an extent that it's worth $1700 more. That is a lot of money.I do hate poorly made tools, especially if I have to use them nearly everyday. But if the grizzly table saw is as good as the jointer, I would have no trouble using it.

4. 
   davidbrum | Jul 29, 2008 02:19am | #6

   You might want to check this out. 

   http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=88174

   Davidb

5. 
   stillfigurinitout | Jul 31, 2008 08:03am | #7

   I don't want to burn up your thread space with my story, but I'm busting at the seams, and my family has threatened me if I don't stop talking about my used (new to me) Grizzly 1023 right tilt 3hp 220v TS.  As many other, I too used an old cheap bench saw for several years.  I will admit, I got pretty good at making a fairly straight cut, but the time and frustration to do that finally wore me down.  Also cutting hardwood was near impossible.  Bog down and burn marks galore.  And I believe they are just plain dangerous. 

   When I decided to bite the bullet and upgrade, I read everything I could find on the various makes and models of TS.  I looked at contractor's saws at some of the local retailers.  Then I got the bug for the bigger saws.  Retailers would hide when I walked in because at $1,200 plus (minimum) for the saws on display (and I drooled on several of them), I was just kicking tires.  I cut the brochure picture out for the Powermatic PM 2000 and taped it to my monitor at work.  A golden beauty that dreams are made of.  I came back to reality and then drooled over the hybrids for a few weeks, especially the Steel City.  I looked hard at the Grizzly line as they have gotten rave reviews from professionals and hobbists alike, which I did take into account.  However, I never saw one in person. 

   Finally, I decided the Delta contractor's saw would suite my purposes and my budget.  I would go to Lowes and walk around and around the display model, but for whatever reason, I just couldn't pull the trigger.  And they had the best price in town.  I thought about buying used but the local retailers said good luck.  Then I found out everyone uses Craigslist for the local purchase and sale of used power tools.  I live near Houston and you would think this is a good market for used equipment.  Problem was, most the saws on Craigslist were bench saws, most in far worse shape than mine.  Then I heard of a used Delta contractors saw for sale about a 6 hours drive from Houston.  It came with a nice Biesemyer fence, and side and outfeed tables, at a very good price.  But a six hour drive pulling a trailer (selling my truck ranks right up there in big blunders) and maybe being dissappointed when I got there, well I changed my mind. 

   So my wife and I talked one Saturday night and decided to build up a fund to buy a nice, new saw, that I could use for life.  I felt good about the decision and after all the effort of looking, the pressure was off.  Sunday afternoon, just out of habit, I pulled up Craigslist, and there it was, posted 8 minutes prior, a used 1023 Grizzly saw.  It was beautiful and priced at $600.  I almost bit my tongue off.  I'm always the second caller and never the first in line for a good deal.  The seller had posted a phone number but I didn't see it in my haste to email them.  My email was really an act of "on my knees begging".  Ten minutes later a lady called me and ask why she was getting so many calls and emails about the saw.  I said you've got a great saw at a great price.  I said I could leave immediately and drive up (about 60 miles).  She said be sure and arrive before 5:00 as three other people would be coming by.  Her husband was extremely upset with their decision to sell the saw and would not be there.  I grabbed $100 out of the ATM and drove with conviction. 

   She had it at the front of the garage with several accessories on the table top including a Forrest King Dado set, a Jet tendoning jig, several magnetic featherboards, and a Forrest Woodworkers II blade installed, basically brand new.  It also came with a mobile base, motor cover (not included on a new model), a vaccum attachment and a 20 foot, 10 gauge extension cord.  It also had the Shop Fox fence and rails.  I had no accessories except shopmade jigs I'd hobbled together.  The saw and accessories were in like new condition but the table top was covered with a thick greasy film.  I think the husband did this for protection during nonuse.  I can't believe he left some of the cosmoline on it.  I ask was she sure all the accessories came with the saw at the asking price.  She said yes although her husband had told her the accessories could sell on ebay for at least $400.  I agreed.  She just wanted to sell and be done with it.  Her 220v outlet was covered by tons of garage junk so I trusted her when she said it runs fine.  I figured even a major motor repair would be a comparatively cheap repair.  By the way, he had a Jet joiner and Delta planer, like new condition new at half the new price.  I curbed my enthusium, shielded my eyes, and gave her the $100 to hold the saw and said I'll be back.  No dickering, just thanks for letting me be the one to buy the saw.  I was really afraid someone would offer her more money than the asking price and she would sell it out from under me.  She didn't.

   On Tuesday I filled the car with gas, got the car lights wired and rented an open U-haul trailer ($150 not including gas).  I dragged my son out of bed and off we went to pick up the saw.  Well, me, my nonathletic 15 year old son, and the lady grunted and sweated and pulled and pushed that saw to the very back of the trailer, with about a half inch to spare.  She was a good sport.  I padded it with four sleeping bags, covered it with tarp and tied it down for the slow, slow drive back to it's new home.  I didn't know how I was going to get it unloaded and by shear grace, two guys were working on my neighbors house when I drove up.  I offered them $20 for help and they ask could they finish their lunch first?  I grudgingly said ok.  A few minutes later we had the saw off the trailer and on the driveway.  My son and I and a boy from down the street got it into the garage.  

   I set about cleaning it up with 2 gallons of 99% isopropol alcohol a jet engine mechanic neighbor gave me.  I spent some time assuring myself the table extensions were level and the blade, miter and fence were parallel.  I cleaned up the inside of the cabinet, which was full of sawdust, to my dismay.  I cleaned and lubed the gears and worms, well everything the manual said lube.  I scrubbed the table top with a Scotch bright bad and put a few coats of carnuba from top to bottom.

   To my amazement, after all that tugging, hauling and moving around, the saw was perfectly aligned with no adjustment necessary.  And after working so long with a bench saw, I'm a stickler for precision on any tool.  Then I had to wire up a 220v circuit breaker, which is a painful story that would just dampen your spirits.  It got done.

   On it's trial run, I must have cut up half my scrap pieces both miter and rip cuts.  All kinds of wood and thicknesses.  I'm getting use to the right tilt but would probably prefer a left tilt, but its all good.  Old habits die hard. The motor never strained one iota.  Butter, baby, butter.

   Of course we had the video running for the first cut or two or three.  There is a very slight jerk when the motor starts up and it doesn't have the whirling jet sound of a Delta or Powermatic saw.  The belts look fine, no crack and they are adjusted per the manual.  I don't have much experience to compare to.  There is no vibration.  Solid as a rock (420 pounds not including fence and rails).  Rip cuts can go on forever with less than 1/64 width variation.  I'm sure there must be some fence deflection, but I couldn't measure any.  No sanding required with the Woodworker II blade.  The fence slide like it was on ice.  Pinky finger push is all it takes.  Lines up perfectly straight.  The hairline on the scale will form a shadow that can throw you off, if your not looking.  The powder coated paint job looks great.  The blade height and angle wheels turn with no effort. 

   OK, I got it out of my system.  My story is told.  I'll probably get kicked off this forum for using up so many electrons.  But I know there are some out there who understand buying their first (and hopefully last) quality cabinet saw is not just a purchase, it is Nirvana.  May the saw gods be honored.  $1,700 is along on money.  I guess you know what my suggestion would be.  GGGGGGrizzly. 

   Yours Truely,

   David

1. 
   flairwoodworks | Aug 03, 2008 10:48pm | #22

   David,

   Great story - I read the whole thing.  Reminds me of the story about the fellow who found an Emmert patternmaker's vise in an estate sale.  The fellow running the sale told him that he could have it for $20, I think, if he could tell him what it was.  If you don't know, Emmerts are no longer available and can fetch more than $500.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com

    - Success is not the key to happines.  Happiness is the key to success.  If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer

6. 
   DJK | Jul 31, 2008 02:38pm | #8

   Where you live, it should be very easy to find a used saw. I'll sell you a rebuilt 1985 PM66, 5hp, three phase for $1500. Pick it up in Warren, MI.

1. 
   TWG | Jul 31, 2008 03:29pm | #9

   The only inconvenience I see with that deal is the 3-phase part.  I do keep my eye out for used stuff all the time. 

1. 
   SARGEgrinder47 | Jul 31, 2008 06:55pm | #10

   I would be patient and scope out Craigs-list. I sold a 1 1/2 year old factory re-conditioned Uni-saw earlier this week for $800. Mobile base.. custom Shark quick release splitter with over-head dust port.. Biesemeyer fence and several custom guards I built. All he has to do is plug it in and go to work.

   I don't see a jump from 6 hours a week to 12 as a substantial reason to pay the extra that you originally mentioned. I jumped from an average of 20 hours a week to 50 about 7 months ago. I think the difference would be well suited for the BS you mentioned making it a no-brainer if I were in your shoes.

   Good luck with your decision...

   Sarge..

7. 
   RW | Aug 01, 2008 01:09am | #11

   Couple of thoughts. And disclaimer, I haven't used the Griz, and we sell the PM's at work.

   Nevertheless, for whatever its worth, I think PM is making a lot of waves with the 2000 saws. There's a lot of nice features built in, but, my opinion, there's some frilly things they put in there to try to cater to a wider base. The router lift is one. The workbench is one. A much better bang for the buck is the plain jane 2000 with the 50" fence. I liked that one enough I bought one for me, and I've been pretty happy with it.

   My only experience with Griz is one local commercial outfit here. Every time they replace equipment, they take bids. They're always looking at the Griz, and about 80% of the time thats what they buy. Cost is a focus, but surely if they were rubbish the guys wouldnt continue to buy them.

   The 2000 is made in Taiwan, not China.

   As of tomorrow, the PM66 will no longer be made in USA, that will also export to overseas. Whatever is left in the warehouse in Lavergne tomorrow is the remaining US supply of American made 66's.

    

    

   Real trucks dont have sparkplugs

1. 
   SARGEgrinder47 | Aug 01, 2008 01:32am | #12

   I knew they were goint to dis-continue the 66 RW... thanks on when as you just answered that.

   Sarge..

1. 
   RW | Aug 01, 2008 02:52am | #13

   AFAIK, it won't be discontinued production wise, it'll still be made and available, just not made here.

   Theres a small percentage of folks out there who are die hard in their belief of buying American made, and that position certainly has its merits. Those are the people who would want to know the difference, and when. I've honestly only run into 1 at the store, and oddly enough, the cost difference between the PM66 and the 2000 undid the deal and he bought a 2000 after all. Real trucks dont have sparkplugs

2. 
   TWG | Aug 01, 2008 04:51am | #14

   Thanks for your thoughts. I have looked at the 2000 closely since I first posted, and I believe it is a good saw for $2000 (it costs more). However, I feel the Grizzly is a far better saw for $1300. i will keep looking out for used until I have the money together.

1. 
   SARGEgrinder47 | Aug 01, 2008 05:39am | #15

   I think you are on track with your theory. Uless you get into a constant run situation you should be good to go and have a leg up on the BS. That is just my opinion which means very little other than to me. :>)

   Good luck and let us know how it works out.

   Sarge..

2. 
   stillfigurinitout | Aug 01, 2008 07:50am | #16

   The SawStop brand is taking over in the production shops and school shops.  I've been told the savings in liability insurance and workman's comp is enuf to pay for the trade out.  Especially if the saws have been depreciating for a couple of years.

   I think as the trend continues, the market will become flooded with use Deltas and Powermatics.  What really floors me is that the SawStop braking system was shopped to all the major brands but no takers.  Maybe there was a dealkiller in the mix somewhere.  It looks like the majors dropped the ball on this inovation and sales will suffer.  A salesman at the local Woodcraft store last week said he has sold 16 SawStops, 1 Powermatic and 2 Deltas since spring.  May not help out your situation at the moment.

1. 
   liferjr | Aug 02, 2008 03:35pm | #17

   You don't have to jump for new saw unless you need it NOW.  I looked for cabinet saw for about 2 months, saw PM2000 about 6 hours away on craigslist.  (absolutely nothing close by) Got picts, called to discuss and made deal.  $1700 for a one year old.  Perfect condition not a spot of rust on the saw.  He had it taken apart ready to load after starting it up.  Cost me about $150 in gas and food for the day trip, so it ended up over 1/3 off a new saw. 

   Don't settle keep looking

8. 
   Len | Aug 02, 2008 09:32pm | #18

   I have a Grizzly 1023. I don't have a single complaint about it. Well, the UWMH on the fence is a little wavy but it's not anything I can't fix.

   On the other hand. I saw this deal.

   http://www.cpopowermatic.com/products/1792011k.html?ref=googaw&kw=%7Bkeyword%7D

   5HP Powermatic with a 50 inch fence and router lift. They are also offering half off the dust collector if you buy one.

   Len

   "You cannot antagonize and influence at the same time. " J. S. Knox

9. 
   gregjones | Aug 03, 2008 01:27pm | #19

   You can find the PM model that you are interested in for less than 3k. One example is Osolnik Machinery that has that model for slightly less than $2,400 delivered. Question then is the PM worth $1,100 more than the Grizzly?

1. 
   RW | Aug 03, 2008 08:10pm | #21

   Just a related thought. Anyone who is thinking of buying Powermatic or Jet, it is very, very worth your time to check the quarterly sales flyers. Anyone who is a dealer has them for free, if you don't feel like leaving your chair they're available online as a .pdf at the company home website such as http://www.powermatic.com or at the distributor website for Wilton, Jet, and Powermatic http://www.wmhtoolgroup.com.

   You will probably never see the very large industrial machines on sale in the flyers; they're almost exclusively serious hobbyist/light commercial stuff, like table saws and drum sanders (As opposed to horizontal panel saws and wide belt sanders). But if its an item you're thinking about and its not on sale now, a decent store should be able to find out if its going to be in the next one with a little digging, and if it is, its worth waiting a couple of months for.

   Just for example purposes, a Jet 4"x24" bar clamp (the speed bar style, not the square face) is $15 now, normally $31 as list. Real trucks dont have sparkplugs

10. 
    dkellernc | Aug 03, 2008 05:26pm | #20

    I have a Delta Unisaw produced about 5 years ago.  It was about $1800 with a 50" Unifence, outfeed table and side-support table.  I like the saw, and have found no real quibbles with it once I chucked the awful plastic blade guard and replaced the aft-mounted splitter with a in-slot slitter with pawls.

    That said, If I was going to spend $3000 on a table saw, I would pony up a few more bucks and buy the SawStop.  Regardless of how safety conscious you are, most of us occasionally suffer split-second lapses of judgement, whether it's at a friend's wedding reception or in the woodshop.  And a split-second lapse of judgement on a cabinet saw is all it takes to amputate a hand.

    If I had the purchase of the Unisaw to do over again, I'd buy the Sawstop, no questions asked.

11. 
    pmmatty | Aug 04, 2008 02:27pm | #23

    My two cents: neither.  I was faced with the same choice. I bit the bullet and got the sawstop.  And kept my jet contractor saw.  I use both saws.  Butted the jet and the sawstop back to back so they actually face each other.  So what I have is the sawstop.  Cannot say enough about it.  Does everything well.  Even though I am still careful I feel a peace of mind when using it.  I almost always use the blade guard, as it is so narrow in profile it doesn't get in the way. Using the guard, I have very little dust above the table.  I always hated changing blades for dadoes or grabbing my miter gauge off the wall for cross cuts.  So now I use the jet for those functions.  Miter guage stays on the saw.  So when a cross cut is called for, just walk around the "saw station" and make the cross cut.  And I continue to use the router table which I had built into the jet extension.  I couldn't be happier with my set- up.  Good luck. pmm

     

1. 
   TWG | Aug 04, 2008 05:50pm | #24

   The reason I don't think the Saw Stop is for me at this time is bc I'm not sure what saw I will need 3-5 years from now.

   If I end up doing more cabinet work, I will probably want a slider or even a CNC.  If I end up doing more furniture (hopefully) a SS might be a good choice then, but If things go really well, a Martin or Felder has been my dream since first working with them.

   The Grizzly appears good enough for my 25hr/wk shop, and for accounting purposes, it keeps an extra $2700 in my pocket.  Believe me though, even if the SS didn't have the safety feature (which I often forget to consider) it is probably worth $4K, just not to me at this time.

12. 
    jointerman | Aug 06, 2008 02:47am | #25

    TWG,

    I know I'm joining this discussion late, but was there a reason that you didn't consider the Grizzly G0651? It seems to have some really nice features, riving knife and big outfeed table.

1. 
   TWG | Aug 06, 2008 03:07pm | #26

   If mobility was not a consideration I would probably be purchasing the G0651.   However, the G1023 has a cast iron table and extension (compared to MDF).  It also has a router table built it.  The perfect Grizzly saw for me would be a G1023 with a riving knife.

1. 
   jointerman | Aug 06, 2008 06:49pm | #27

   Yeah... Drives me crazy that you can't get what you want, even with a fairly flexible budget! I'd like a Jet , I'd like the new Jet Xacta saw with the RK and the sliding table from the Jet Supersaw. And a router table to the right.Don't forget to post pictures of your new saw!

13. 
    z123456789 | Aug 06, 2008 07:06pm | #28

    You might want to consider looking for a used table saw.  I replaced my 10 year old contractors saw with a 61 year old Unisaw, for which I bought a upgraded fence.  The saw is amazing, I took the time to get everything set up perfectly and it works perfectly.  Consider Craig's list and Ebay.  Not too many Powermatics show up but you can generally find Unisaw's and a few Grizzlies.

14. 
    TWG | Aug 12, 2008 11:45am | #29

    The G1023SLW and the GO457 bandsaw (http://grizzly.com/products/G0457) are on their way. I will attach pictures once they are wrestled in place.

    I had the chance to see two used Grizzly TSs but the negatives overwhelmed the price difference. I can't Imagine how one of them ever got down these tiny basement stairs.

1. 
   SARGEgrinder47 | Aug 12, 2008 06:11pm | #30

   Enjoy....

   Sarge..

2. 
   davidbrum | Aug 13, 2008 03:36pm | #31

   If somebody hasn't mentioned this before, you might want to consider a Sharkguard for your Griz. I have owned a saw with a riving knife and now have the Griz 1023 with Sharkguard. I haven't found anything that the riving knife did that the Shark won't do. Lightning quick to remove too. davidb