I recently retired my 20 year old Sears hunk-a-junk and bought a big Shop Vac for something like $109.00. In looking it over, there as a lot I liked about it, mostly the low profile that doesn’t tip over when you pull it by the hose. Big wheels that don’t get hung up on the cord, etc.
And power, sheesh, this thing will suck the toenails off an elephant. It sucks up everyting in sight . . . . for a short while until the filter clogs and packs as tight as fresh plaster. I got it in late March, cleaned the first $10 filter about four times until it fell apart, after which I beleatedly discovered why they sell the thing so cheap — in a years time you spend as much again on filters. Had it 3 months and been through two filters. All that power just makes things worse by packing the filter hard with dust, making it very difficult to clean.
At that rate I’ll spend $80/yr. Internally, they obvouisly designed the thing to sell filters because the design is all wrong. (1) there is a coarse filter BEHIND the fine paper filter where it does no good. In other words the filter postion is reversed. It should have a coarse primary filter in front of the paper filter.
Secondly, the inlet port deflects the dust downward and causes whatever enters the cannister to always be blowing around inside, virtually guaranteeing that the filter will clog almost immediately. I found a quick solution to this dishonest design that is cheap and takes only a few minutes to impliment.
Take a 3″ PVC pipe,about 10″ long, slice it in half length-wise. Drill hole and screw it the deflector in horizontal position. This will direct flow away from dust collecting on bottom.
Then I purchased a 1″ thick furnace filter material, cut it to size, and tied it around the paper filter with heavy string, top and bottom. Then I sucked up everything in my shop and took a look at the filter. Viola! It was not clogged.
I’m happy to report that I won’t be buying their darn $10 filters once a month anymore.
Replies
Boatman,
Thanks for the tip...off to the big box store in the morning.
Sort of like the cheapo printers we buy for our computer systems these days, eh? $89 printer, $40 ink cartridge!
I'm still using my old Craftsman dinosaur, and put a HEPA filter on it which helps. However, I think I'll try your idea with the furnace filter material. The other thing I've heard of doing is putting pantyhose on the filter (stop laughing). Last month I discovered that there is a HEPA filter for the little Shop Vacs, which was very, very cool. That filter actually has a metal mesh reinforcement, which should help it last a long time.
Thanks for posting your idea.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Or like battery powered tools.
Problem with panty hose is that it too would clog fast. Depth of filter material is important. Shop vac sells a thin foam sleeve to fit over the filter, but this won't help much.
Yeah, I've had that foam thing. I'm likin' the HEPA.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
That old Crafstman vac might make a good prefilter. I found a big old Creftsman shop vac at the dump. I pulled the motor off, and put a 2 1/2" hose from the motor hole to my shop vac. The big stuff, and most of the little stuff, gets caught in the prefilter.
I am confused by your description... "Drill hole and screw it the deflector in horizontal position. This will direct flow away from dust collecting on bottom. " Are you saying you screwed it to the cheap pull out deflector inside? and with a 10" pipe in the horizontal position, isnt that going to put the pipe into the filter? Sorry I am so dumb, just trying to picture your solution.... I had just been putting up with bags for shavings....
this looks pretty much like my unit, but mine is a 20 gallon... http://www.shopvac.com/web/products/detail.asp?ID=101&HdnSource=index&StoreID=
thanks in advance for your reply
Boatman,
Thanks for the post. I also "upgraded" to a new shop vac and love the same features you mentioned PLUS it's relatively QUIET--especially compared to my old shop vac.
I have the same problem, of course. Tried the panty hose solution, but that doesn't help at all. I've thought about a cyclone, but that won't likely solve the problem either, since that only gets rid of the heavy stuff.
I'm gonna give your solution a shot. Thanks again.
BJ
You might want to take a look at the Clean Stream HEPA filters that forestgirl talked about. I have one on mine and would not be without it. They have a Gore-Tex membrane that is laminated to non-woven polyester backing. The older ones used to have a metal bottom but they are all plastic now. The catch particles down to 0.3 microns (about 1/300th the thickness of a human hair). Even though they filter this fine they don't easily clog. When It does I can generally tap it against the edge of the driveway to get most of the dirt out and it is ready to go again. For a good cleaning I will rinse it with the hose and it is good as new, make sure that it is completly dry before you use it again or it will clog faster. Most of the wood working store sell them, Rockler, Wood Working Supply, etc...
MikeWe are the people our parents warned us about. J. Buffett
To all
I may be the odd man here (odd anyway).
I use the drywall dust collection bags in my shop vacs.
The filter rarely if ever clogs, and I just throw the bag away when
full.
My machines are hooked to my cyclone dust collector.
Jeff
Jeff
You're not necessarily the only odd-man out. I also use the dry-wall bag. I bought one of the Shop-Vac made HEPA filters an added that also. It has a 1/2" foam sleeve over the paper pleat portion. You slide the sleeve off an hit it on a fence. Every now an then I wash it. The good whacking does the job. I don't have any saw-dust build up between the pleats of the paper catridge period.
The HEPA filter is expensive. On the other bigger Shop-Vac an the two small ones, I went to a fabric store an bought a sheet of 1/2" foam. Cut an fitted it to the filters of those vacs and them sewed it together at the seam with old nylon fishing cord from my past. This does not give the Hepa rating that the HEPA filters do, but it does keep the filter from clogging an having to clean between those pleats.
To save the expense of the drywall bags in those 3 units, I bought some cheap stand-up vac bags an modified the opening to fit the Shop-Vacs. Works fine to keep the filter from clogging. Again, it comes up short in HEPA rating. If I used those vacs as often as the biggest one, I would probaly go the same route as I did with it. It is expensive, but think about the big picture. What I can save in money in this case is a small price to pay for what I can potentially save in lungs.
Regards...
sarge..jt
Sounds like a good solution to me, Sarge. I really get agitated at all these manufacturers who sell you a machine that really doesn't perform properly, and then sell OPTIONAL stuff that corrects the problem. In my book that is fraud.
By the way, do you guys suck up large amounts of dust from the floor, or only what the broom doesn't get? I don't have a duist collector, so I do suck up large amounts of fine stuff.
boatman
I have a small, mobile (1 HP) Penn State DC I hook directly to the bigger machines. I use the little Shop Vac 6 gal dedicated for the chop saw an Sliding Miter. Use a direct hook up to the ROS sander with another 6 gal small Shop Vac. Can hook it to the PC circular saw when cutting down big panels.
After accumualting all the vacs over the years, I don't have that much big saw dust left. I took over the entire garage for a shop. When I'm through messing up, I open both garage doors an start in the back with a 70 mph electric leaf blower. Blow it outside and go up for coffee while the dust settles. I just got through making face frames for a micro-wave table an did just that. Should be back down an able to start sanding them in 45 minutes when the fine dust settles.
sarge..jt
Sarge
I use the Hepa filters and foam screen in my vacs also.
Between the bag and filters it works great.
Jeff
Oooooops, I didn't know I was supposed to put the foam thingie over the HEPA filter. Will have to try that I guess.
The HEPA for my little Shop Vac was $20, but I suspect it will last just about forever, so it doesn't seem like that much. I think the HEPA for my big ol' Craftsman vac was $30 or more. It was a bit of a painful bite, but the old paper filters just weren't lasting or doing a great job with the small stuff.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Jamie
Yep, the foam will keep the larger dust from ever getting to the paper filter. Just as a two stage separator can will do in a larger DC system. As Jeff will attest, when you slide it off you will find little if any dust accumulated on the paper pleats. An yes, they're kind of expensive, but I haven't had to buy another filter in over a year an a half since I put it on.
Boatman's idea works too. Putting anything that will breath over that paper catridge will save a lot of dust going back out in the air an cleaning pleats to boot.
Probably good Boatman started the thread. Hopefully some things will get passed here that might benefit the majority as we are all have this problem in common.
Thanks boatman... Thanks Jeff...
sarge..jt
Sarge, you just gave away your secret: if you have to blow the dust out, then your collection system isn't working.
I just use mine for cleaning and I can't imagine connecting to a table saw. That thing'd jam up with dust in a day and I can't imagine any vac filter arrangement that would solve that problem. Altogether too much dust.
boatman
I don't connect it to the TS. I use the direct hook up mobile DC on that along with the jointer, BS, thichness planer, etc.
The smaller dust comes mostly from hand sanding, which I do a lot of. I'm completely happy with the other hook-ups. They do what they are disigned to do an that's all I can expect. No system will get all the dust, IMO. It's there, you just can't see fine particles with the naked eye.
Opening the doors an a quick blast with the leaf blower takes about 2 minutes. About the amount of time a spider can weave a web in summertime in Georgia. Takes care of that too. By the time you go up for coffee an come back, they've completely spun a new one.
If you looking for a dust-free enviroment, WoodWorking is the wrong line of work or hobby. It ain't gonna happen in a wood shop. Hey, you know that as many hours as you've logged.Probably more that most. ha..ha..
sarge..jt
Dust collection secret:
You guys will think I am nuts, but the best purchase I've made is a Fein Turbo III. It is about ten times quieter than a Sears vac. You turn it on expecting noise and it is a shock that you don't get it.
It has a bypass collection system so the dust and debris are not sucked past the propellor and filter.
Their is a single heavy felt or HEPA filter that doesn't wear out.
Best, it has both manual and automatic settings. The automatic setting has an outlet (kind of like the back of a stereo) to plug in another tool such that when you turn on your router or sander, it also turns on the vacuum. When you shut off the router, the vacuum shuts off about 3 seconds later.
Too expensive at $250, but since there is nothing else like it, it is worth it.
Robbie, I'm not at all surprised to hear you like your Fein so much. Such a reputation they have! What do you think about the efficiency of the filter? Is that as great as the rest of the engineering?forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Robbie
The Fein is very nice, out of my league money-wise but nice. The felt bags are a key. Felt is used with a good DC system an in industiral dust systems.
I lost about 30% of my hearing in VN, so it's hard ro me to distinquish between the brands. I can't hear a Fein running so I suppose it is probaly quieter. ha..ha..
The extra quality you get warrants the extra price, IMO. Especially if you don't plan on a DC at this point. I have heard nothing but good about the Fein.
BTW, welcome aboard the forum an sling your two cents worth in whenever you like. It's like a public golf course, no-one is exclued no matter what level you're at...
Regards for the evening...
sarge..jt
If it will kill a spider, it will kill you too. Lord, how I hate those webs. The vac is the best weapon fer 'em.
Glad to hear that your system works good. I don't have one (yet, after 20+ years) but do have a large filter system that will clean the air in 5 min. Things still get very dusty tho.
My biggest beef now is cleaning out the table saw, which is a hands an knees job with HAZMAT suit. Do DC systems pull everything out of the hopper?
boatman
I have sort of a special situation with my old junk table-saw. I bought an ol Ryobi in a yard-sale an took it modifying with the help of my BIL (machinist) an best freind (mech engineer). It is not to close to stock anymore. Inside is a shroud that curves under the blade. The dust port is in the rear an connects directly to the shroud.
The little Penn State DC pulls about 85% out from that shroud which catches most. I threw the base away on the original saw an built a heavy wooden base from old maple shorts. Added a door in the front. Anything that gets away from that shroud drops inside the cabinet an is contained there. I just open the door an stick the Shop-Vac wand inside to get it after completing the day.
A small amount escapes up an on the table, but minimal. That's when the doors get opened an the dust blower takes it outside. I intentionally set the saw near the doors for that an I can add extentions that allow me to rip up to 16" stock. Plenty of room in front of the saw an plenty in the rear with the doors open. Weather here in Atlanta doesn't prohibit opening the doors when necessary all year round.
Here's a pic of the saw, the D.C. was added after it was taken. I added a second stage to the DC as the separator does a great job of dumpin in the can b-4 it hits the impellor an main component.
sarge..jt
Problem with those filters is that the molded rubber top & bottom that holds it all together (Shop Vac) cracks and falls apart. If I knew how to post photos I'd show you a picture of what happened to my last one. The rubber just self destructs after a bit of handling. That's part of what prompted me to make a fix.
Boatman, I'm not sure, but I think we're talking about two different filters here -- the molded rubber part you're referring to is on the paper filters, right?? Yep, those are a pain in the rear. What I didn't know was that I could put the foam rubber sleeve over the HEPA filter on my small Shop Vac.
Lacking the funds for a real dust collector, I use my big Craftsman (ancient dinosaur) hooked up to my tablesaw and my jointer. It's not ideal, but it works great on the jointer and certainly helps on the tablesaw. Yeah, it clogs up, but it takes awhile before performance really goes down. The only tools that really clog it super-fast are the spindle sander and belt sander.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
REally? Mine would clog almost instantly so I wouldn't dream of using it on the table saw. I tried to suck out a full hopper full and it choked before it was half-way thru. But, I think I'm gonna try it with my new furnace filter arrangement.
My country garbage people just told me not to put out bags of sawdust anymore because they were prohibited from taking them. (had a bag leak and rain completely soaked so it weighed about 100 lbs.) Now this makes for a real interesting dilemma. I tried composting it and that definitely doesn't work!!!
"I tried composting it and that definitely doesn't work!!!" Boatman, it should work but takes a lot of time. If you don't want to take the time to compost it (understandable!), you (and your neighbors, and your neighbors' kids and grandkids and extended families) can use it as a mulch instead, although shavings work better than sawdust. Tips:
Be sure there's no walnut shavings in there. They are bad, bad -- natural herbicide ingredient.
If you want to compost it, it has to be mixed (not layered) with nitrogen-rich greens (grass clippings, weeds, leftover lettuce) in a well designed (hot) compost pile.
Is there a compost-provider in your neck of the woods? They might take them off your hands as long as you're able to tell them there's no undesireable wood in there.
You could grow worms! A big worm bin with dirt, add starter worms, wood shavings, an occasional corn on the cob scrap. Happy Squirmers.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
We are trying to composte but are not having any luck. Got a nice compost bin from our garbage company, mixing in compostable garbage and lawn clippings but it just doesn't break down. You mentioned "hot"... ours is in a shady spot. Does that make a difference?
Thanks,
bit
Bitman, I'm having the same problem with a commercial composter I bought a couple of years ago. It's not decomposing well at all. I'm going back to my worm-bin method for household garbage. (more later)
"Hot" compost pile: That term refers to the internal temp of a yard-waste compost pile. I'm short on specifics, 'cause I've not done one of these in several years, but when you're making a yard-waste compost pile, you want to make it big enough that it will build up heat as the materials start composting, which speeds up the continuing decomposition. The pile has to be turned or otherwise mixed periodically to keep things moving. There's tons of info "out there" (Google, you're local nurseries) on specifics for building these.
As far as garbage composting goes, I've decided worms are the only way. There are commercial worm composters available. The last one I did was using a big, big plastic bin (like maybe 36" wide and 48" long and 28" high). I drilled some drain holes along the bottom, put a bunch of pretty nice dirt in it (~6" deep), and made sure there were a couple of dozen worms to start a community with. Just toss in table scraps (no meat or fat). They love coffee by the way! Paper towels and newspapers give them some plain fiber to work with and they'll eat those, and the coffee filters too. I made a top for mine to keep the racoons out. These bins tend to stay moist naturally, and the worms need moisture, but not too wet or they'll die. These make the fastest, richest compost!
Now, I should go investigate why the commercial dealiebob isn't working.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Worms are but the final stage of composting. They finish the job thqt is nearly complete. Micro organisms do the lions share of work, which is where the heat comes from. I've had a pile of saw dust out there for two years and it's turned into a solid mass like MDF. I think we use too many different woods with toxins in them to use for compost.
I recently found a large SYP tree completely decayed and crumbled. Full of worms and good stuff. DArk red/brown in color. I thought this would make a great soil ingredient for my collection of tropical plants that I've collected around the world. Boy was I wrong, it killed the first thing I planted in it. I should have noticed that there was nothing growing on the decomposed tree in the first place.
Moral of the story: it's probably not a good idea to compost saw dust or use it as mulch. In fact, Paduk killed one of my palms.
I suspect you're talking about volumes the likes of which I probably won't see. The mulching/composting topic has come up a few times over the last 3 years, and there are several who use shavings and sawdust regularly for mulch with no problems. For weed mulch, I generally lay a couple of layers of newspaper around the (usually) tree I'm mulching, wet it down, and then lay down a 2-3" deep layer of shavings. Never, ever up against the trunk of the tree though.
With regard to the SYP tree disaster, did you actually plant something in it? or did you mix the crumbling stuff with regular soil and then plant? I rarely use more than 50% compost when mixing up for a bed or for planting a single plant, and it's always well cured, nearly black, compost. There may have been fungi or something in the SYP junk that turned against you. Or, if it wasn't finished really composting, the plant that died may have been nitrogen starved.
Re: your pile of sawdust, methinks it's too homogenous. Sounds like there's never been anything mixed in with it to provide nitrogen and micro-organisms to push along the decomposition process. Sort of like trying to compost straw without any green grass mixed in.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Boatman, since you're the originator of this thread, I guess it's ok to continue on the composting tangent (we have to beware of the topic police, especially in the summertime, LOL). The reading I've done on worm composting seems to contradict your theory that the worms do only the final finishing-off of debris in a worm-bin composting system. Several publications specifically indicate to not add any more food (read: garbage) than the worms can eat in a few days. This indicates to me that they are very active in the actual processing of the raw garbage, as micro-organisms would not break down the food in just a few days.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Must be the difference between northen and southern worms. I compost on the ground and throw just about anything on teh pile from pine needles, cones, small branches, trimmings of all kinds plus my mellon rinds. In truth, my pile is always in progress, but it just seemed to me that the worms were always at the bottom, never the top. And yes, I do turn that hideous mess occasionally. Whatever works is what counts. Last month I pulled out about 9 cubic feet from a 4 month pile.
As to the rotted pine, I mixed 50-50 with something else, I don't remember what. Coulda been manure.
Hey, you do tomatoes? I gotta real problem with those, but that a topic for for the garden section.
FG and Sarge:
Thanks for your responses. FG: the filter on the Fein is as good as the rest of the engineering on the fein. I did not get the HEPA option, but can promise that the stock filter is hard to beat. The heavy felt filter is very similar, maybe a bit thicker, than the 1 micron bags I put on my Delta DC. As mentioned, the thing that floats my boat is that hooked up to a PC sander, there is NO dust escaping and so I am not operating in that "haze" any more. Since it is automatic on, I am using it even for those 30 second operations that I never would have taken the time to hook up my DC for.
Sarge, you are right. It is expensive and like many of my purchases, was an impulse buy. Incidentally, I bought it last year at the same time I bought a Fein detail sander which has been used exactly once. The other good purchase was a Panasonic 15.6V cordless. This thing rocks. Goes through anything and goes forever.
Robbie.
Robbie
I use a small Shop-Vac 6 gal. for the ROS. I like the auto switch an the noise level on the Fein. You got a top-notch unit there. They can be very dangerous though. You might want to drop it by my shop an let me test it till you get your shop up an running. If it checks out OK, you can pick it back up at that time. Better safe than sorry.
You're not buying that are you? I didn't think so. ha..ha..
Enjoy while the rest of us slave over old, loud vacuums..
sarge..jt
Oh, BTW, if you really want to speed up your pile, add water melon and cannelope rinds or half cup of sugar. The sugars bring on the bugs that do the work.
The worms help because they're bringing in the micros with them. Try adding any rotted material that's been on the ground.
Every wet/dry "Shopvac" I've seen the inside of, including my well engineered Fein, has a deflector to point the incoming debris towards the bottom. Your improvement probably has some drawback you haven't encountered yet. I would be especially leary of using it on liquids where w/o the diverter the liquid might get sucked directly into the motor.
John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
Life is tough. It's tougher if you're stupid - John Wayne
Speaking of stupid, why would anyone be sucking up liquids in a wood shop? I was just assuming that woodworkers would never do that, so if you got water in your shop, you got bigger problems than my solution!!!
Another draw back is that when you suck up large objects, they don't go in the can. I have to remove the hose and fish them out. BTW, I've had my furnace filter on for a week now and it's still going strong.
"Speaking of stupid, why would anyone be sucking up liquids in a wood shop? I was just assuming that woodworkers would never do that, so if you got water in your shop, you got bigger problems than my solution!!!"
Well my basement shop can and has gone three or four years without ever seeing any water on the concrete floor (It also has a raised wooden floor for the handtool area with a plastic vapor barrier underneath, but lets just close our eyes and pretend that water would never, ever go there...after all what we can't see, can't hurt us) . But you know at one point during one of the many, many days days that it rained this spring we had something like 7 inches of rain in the space of an hour? Something like that. Saw a little water at that point. Used the shop vac. Didn't think it was stupid. Matter of fact, my two golden retrievers, who often share shop space with me and like to patrol the floor looking for cutoffs to chew on, are much more charming dogs when they're not tracking water everywhere.
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