Replies

1. 
   ted | Dec 21, 2008 02:24am | #1

   " I know this uis an ambitious project but I figure what the heck, it'll keep me off the streets and out of those damned pinball arcades. :)"

   I think you've been beaten to the punch. Ever hear of a Robland?

1. 
   pek-r-wood | Dec 21, 2008 02:53am | #2

   I hadn't until now. The models I looked at resembled the Shopsmith in design, which is the machine that inspired my idea from all the negative reports I'ver heard about it. Is the Robland better? I.E. good enough that I should consider the combination machine market pretty well wrapped up? Reports from Robland owners would be terrific.

1. 
   ted | Dec 21, 2008 03:33am | #3

   The Robeland is ony one of many manufacturerers that make combo machines and combo systems. Laguna, Hammer Felder, etc all make a fairly precise machine that'll do everything you mention. They usually start at around 5k - 6k IIRC.

   Edited 12/20/2008 7:34 pm ET by ted

2. 
   RickL | Dec 21, 2008 05:47am | #5

   The shopsmith is a sorry design for a combination machine. European versions that are successful table saws, jointers, planers, shapers and slot mortisers have been around since the 50's and are well proven and useful. Robland, Felder, Minimax, Sicar are but a few of them. You need to read more wood magazine to keep up with new technology. Actually the hobby wodworker is probably years behind the latest developments. The market is definitely wrapped up unless one could come up with a plastic version for a couple hundred bucks to conquer the bottom feeder market.

2. 
   QCInspector | Dec 21, 2008 04:39am | #4

   Grizzly makes a "wood mill" along the lines your thinking of but only goes as far as the mill. No other attachments.

   So do you want the plain one, http://www.grizzly.com/products/Wood-Mill-Wood-Metalworking/G9959 or the one with the power feed? http://www.grizzly.com/products/Wood-Mill-Wood-Metalworking-w-Power-Feed/G9977

   If you do decide to make one, please post pictures so I can follow along.

1. 
   pek-r-wood | Dec 21, 2008 07:03am | #6

   Ahaaaa.....  this is exactly the sort of proof/disproof of concept information  I was hoping to encounter by asking the people I knew would know. It sounds like:

   1. My initial appraisal of the state of the art in combination machines was incorrect and there are combination machines out there that people are happy with, and,

   2. Grizzly already makes precisely the platform I have in mind, minus attatchments, and it's doubtful that I could beat their price.  Also doubtful would be whether anyone who hadthis type of machine in mind would opt for a refurbished one when they could have a new one for a couple grand.  Both are things I suspected might be true from the outset.

   This leaves me with the idea of making just the accesories to enable the jointer/planer/saw functions for the Woodmill.  Maybe the folks over there might be interested.  The idea did occur to me that these functions might bemore easily accomplished using a horizontal mill platform instead, but horizontals are typically huge, ungainly brutes which would put them out of the space limitations of the average garage, and forget about moving one into a basement without a huge ordeal.

   I still plan to make my own version using my mill in my home shop as a guinea pig, and I'll be happy to post pictures from time to time. As with any idea, you gotta adapt and modify to suit the current conditions of the marketplace. I'd like to thank you guys for brining some of those conditions to my attention.

   John

1. 
   RickL | Dec 21, 2008 09:57pm | #9

   http://www.rojekusa.com/PHP/kps300v.php
   I'm afraid you are so out of touch with the current state of woodworking machines it's a futile attempt to embark on such a venture. Even the metal working machines have their "shopsmith" version of ####combo which is a sorry state as well. Do it because you want to tinker for yourself. Don't expect to create a new market. Plus the old mills are three phase and even though there are VFD converters people are totally out of the loop are the latest phase converters and even the old tried and true rotary ones. The metal machinists are far more comfortable with converters than the wood guys.

3. 
   Woodman41 | Dec 21, 2008 08:10am | #7

   I have a minimax combo machine and it is hands down the finest piece of engineering and manufacturing in a woodworking machine I have ever owned. The perception is that you give up something with a combo machine as the tradeoff for a smaller footprint, when the opposite is true. To compare a modern combo machine to a Shopsmith isn't even a comparison.

   The sliding table saw is bigger and far better than my old Unisaw (although I had that saw dialed in and still miss it from time to time). The safety features on the Minimax also far exceed what is available on most cabinet saws.

   The jointer/planer produce superior results to my Powermatic 15s and generic 8" jointer.

   The shaper rocks and with the sliding table you get a bonus feature. Attaching a power feeder could be easier but I am working on a solution for that.

   Horizontal slot mortiser off the cutterhead on the planer. Ingenious.

   I paid quite a bit of $$ for this machine but I don't ever recall thinking about that aspect of it while using any of the machines.

4. 
   philip | Dec 21, 2008 11:29am | #8

   John,
   I for one would be interested in updates on how you are progressing.
   I must say that there are superb combination machines out there, both industrial and DIY-not sure what is available in America though.
   I am familiar with Bridgeport type mills and related machines and am intrigued to know how you would adapt these on a commercial basis to compete with say an industrial calibre SCM combination or even a Laguna lighter type. I would say forget about anything like the Shopsmith-its time came and went long ago.
   As a one-off for own use I am sure one could make a superb woodworking machine using a Bridgeport type mill-plenty of speed ranges, power take off points, long moving tables etc etc.....Not sure what functions could be gotten out of it, but certainly compound routing, drilling, spindle sanding, grinding, knife sharpening, smallish rip saw, and pto's for other machines spring to mind....It would have to be a machine for the mechanically savvy....
   One of the negatives is that these days folk expect (rightly so) that machinery should work right out of the box and the mere sight of a spanner (wrench) is likely to cause widespread angst.They do not want to carry on building a new machine-and have little or no mechanical knowledge-or the time. Woodworking itself is time consuming.
   Another negative which springs to mind is the fact that vast tonnages of new imported oriental machinery are now available to the home guy for very little when one considers what they really are eg a jointer with table length in excess of 8 feet-for under $3000 !

   Philip Marcou
1. 
   Shoemaker1 | Dec 21, 2008 10:10pm | #10

   Interesting thread! Is this hand cranked or digitialized ? Interesting idea bringing to tool to the wood instead of other way around i.e. wielding around 4x8 sheets over a table saw.
   How far from a CNC mill do you want to be? Those Shop Bots look pretty neat.
   I always thought that lasers would make its way into wood working clean cuts, no saw dust.
   keep us posted

1. 
   pek-r-wood | Dec 21, 2008 10:54pm | #12

   Shoemaker1- The mill I'll be trying this out on will be an old vertical knee mill from the forties without so much as a digital positioning readout. The way geometry is good, however, and I'll actually be able to use it to make some of the tooling I have in mind. I just recently acquired the mill and don't even have it fully tooled up all the way yet, and it's mechanically sound enough to be a candidate for a CNC retrofit, but I'm not really interested in doing that.

2. 
   pek-r-wood | Dec 21, 2008 10:36pm | #11

   Philip,

   I believe you're spot on concerning the commercial viability of this idea. I think I jumped the gun in dreaming up ideas for a business model before even taking a good look at the marketplace and the technical challenges involved.  From the information I've been getting, trying to refurbish machine tools to make them directly competitive with a state of the art combination machine, ready to go out of the box, would be an exercise in frustration. That's just the way my mind works; I get going on an idea and before you know it I'm dreaming of the day my little pet idea will revolutionize an industry and make me untold scores of money. I've learned over the years to temper that enthusiasm with reality.

   However, that's not to say I won't have some fun trying to make my idea work at least once. I'll be glad to update you as I go along. I think the first thing I'll tackle will be the planer function. If you're familiar with Bridgeports you probably know what a flycutter is; I plan to adapt that concept for surfacing wood.  I have one that I made ready to go with a single cutter, and the nice thing about it is that unlike a typical flycutter, which orients the cutter at a 45 deg. angle to the work, mine consists of an armature that passes through a housing, parallel to the work, and orients the cutter square to the work surface.  This should facilitate the addition of an opposed cutter should I deem it necessary. What I need to figure out at this point, I believe, will be:

   1. Optimal cutter geometry for wood. ( I love knocking out tools on the surface grinder, this will be the gravy part of the job.)

   2. Whether hand feed will be possible for this application, or whether the work will need to be clamped and table fed.

   3. If the work must be table fed, how to reposition the clamps quickly and easily when they start to get in the way.

   4. If the work can be hand fed, (possibly using something like a featherboard), how to construct an acceptable safety guard.

   My design intent here will still be maximum ease of use in addition to effectiveness. After all, I may still someday want to pitch my ideas to the folks at Grizzly.

   Thanks for your interest, phil,  I look forward to getting started.

1. 
   philip | Dec 21, 2008 11:25pm | #13

   I have used the small "fly cutter" of face mill that comes with those oriental drillmill machines to machine small pieces of wood- even the comparatively blunt carbide teeth give a reasonable result.
   If I recall correctly, there is an Australian machine for surfacing large slabs which runs a fly cutter type head-I will try to dredge it up.Surface grinder-now you have got my attention....I have an ancient Browne&Sharpe which has become very important to me. Are you familiar with this model-see the remains in the picture (;)Philip Marcou

   
1. 
   pek-r-wood | Dec 21, 2008 11:46pm | #14

   Candy for the eyes, philip--- A model #2 if memory serves, and is that a permanent or electromagnetic chuck?  Either way a very nice looking unit! What's the resloution on the Z axis handwheel? Mine's only graduated in .0005" increments; I have to use Dykem and "feel" to get .0001" accuracies.

   Always cool to meet another grinder hand. Do you use yours mostly for tool sharpening and such? Thanks also for the report on your flycutter, good to know.

    

   Edited 12/21/2008 3:46 pm ET by pek-r-wood

1. 
   philip | Dec 22, 2008 08:24am | #16

   Pek,
   It is the model 2, the model 2B being the one with hand feeds only. The chuck is oriental mechanical on/off so I can machine a length of about 151/2 inches. As far as I know it has been toiling almost daily since 1942 an shows much evidence of both clever repairs and "on the fly" repairs-some of which are ready to bite me at any time , judging by what I saw when I last repaired it-I think you will be interested in the pictures, which show a couple of the many fixtures, jigs etc I seem to have to make on an ongoing basis-some in a hurry like that blade grinding fixture.
   The down feed wheel(Z axis) is graduated in 1/4thou lines, the cross feed is in 1/2 thous. The auto cross feed is temporamental so I prefer to hand feed there.
   You ask what do I use it for. I have had it now for about two years and would be crippled without it-see my web sitewww.Marcouplanes.co.nz.
   You should look at Larry's web site as well-he makes wooden planes-http://www.planemaker.com/.Philip Marcou

   
2. 
   pek-r-wood | Dec 22, 2008 09:19am | #17

   Hey Phil- I checked out your website; you really do some beautiful work. Enjoyed the pictures of your gear as well, particularly cool was the blade grinding fixture. I'm guessing you trigged out the hole locations in the stationary part of the fixture based on predetermined distances from a swivel pin in to holes in the "ramp", using the sine bar principle? Very clever way to avoid making endless gauge block stackups. When I get a chance I'll take some pictures of a similar setup I occasionally build to grind Velcro shears at work. Actually, I just might borrow your idea next time I do it, if it's okay! Also very nice job on that roller/split clamp assembly. I can see down on the bottom right corner of the part where you used Dykem to touch off with; that's one of my favorite tricks!

   What material do you use for your blades? I know A2 is fairly common, but I've got a couple drops of D2 and P20, both hardened to about 58-62 RC, rolling around in my toolbox that I've been thinking about grinding up and trying out just for kicks.  The difference is probably negligible, but you know how it is.

   Look forward to talking some more, and thanks again for the cool pictures!

   John

3. 
   philip | Dec 22, 2008 09:54am | #18

   John,
   That blade grinding fixture has undergone a number of modifications and has saved me a lot of hassle. Now I merely rough out the bevel free hand with my belt grinder to remove most of the waste then use the surface grinder to refine it. Any blade which can be clamped on there can be done .
   I use either O1 or D2 for blades which I make and I buy the Veritas blade to fit my big smoothers. I don't use A2 for the simple reason that I can't get the right sizes locally- although I can get them via internet traders.What is P20? I don't kmnow it.
   Are you able to take photos and have you worked out how to load them onto the forum?Philip Marcou

4. 
   pek-r-wood | Dec 22, 2008 10:26am | #19

   Hi phil- P20 is a good general purpose chrome-moly mold and die steel with a dash of manganese thrown in.  The choice for plastic injection mold cavity blocks.  Pretty good wear and impact resistance. I'm sure the D2 woiuld perform a bit better as a plane blade as it has a slightly higher hardening range.  (sure is a bear to grind, though, isn't it?)

   I have a decent digital camera, and I'll make a point this week to do a forum search on the procedure for loading pictures. I promise I'll have something for you soon.

   John

5. 
   zolton | Dec 22, 2008 06:10pm | #21

   John,

   If you're looking to develop a market for something you could make or invent, consider coming up with a device that would retrofit an affordable riving knife to the gazillion or so tablesaws out there that don't have one.

   The main problem is that the blades of most existing tablesaws rise in an arc from a pivot point. As the blade rises higher in its arc, the riving knife (if it's attached to the arbor assembly) does as well. True riving knife tablesaws have an arbor that travels straight up and down, and that means the riving knife stays a consistent height with respect to the blade.

   The BORK riving knife is a pretty good interim solution, but its height has to be adjusted manually, and it's not as sturdy as it maybe could, or should, be. If someone could come up with something that works on, for instance, all the Unisaws out there, that would be a great big market to tap...

   ZoltonIf you see a possum running around in here, kill it. It's not a pet. - Jackie Moon

6. 
   pek-r-wood | Dec 23, 2008 01:12am | #23

   Interesting problem, Zoltan. I think I can visualize it:  if you set the tip of the riving knife at top dead center over the blade at one height and then raise the blade, the knife swings back and down and ends up lower than it should be, and thus doesn't engage the workpiece until later in the cut than would be optimal. Thus, the cut has an opprtunity to bind and kickback while it's "waiting" to engage the knife. Is that about right?

   As it happens, I have a friend with a Unisaw; next time I'm over there I'll take a hard look at it. If I get any ideas, I'll come back here and run 'em up the ol' flagpole and see if anyone salutes. Thanks for the potential challenge!

    

   John

7. 
   zolton | Dec 23, 2008 01:42am | #24

   "... if you set the tip of the riving knife at top dead center over the blade at one height and then raise the blade, the knife swings back and down and ends up lower than it should be, and thus doesn't engage the workpiece until later in the cut than would be optimal. Thus, the cut has an opprtunity to bind and kickback while it's "waiting" to engage the knife. Is that about right?"

   John,

   Yes, that describes exactly what a riving knife attached to the arbor does. The main problem, however, isn't that the knife winds up lower than the top of the blade when you wind the blade down. It's what happens when you raise the blade. The riving knife gets taller. And if you're trying to do a "non-through" cut, the uncut portion of your board will bump into the riving knife. Therefore, before you attempt any such cut, you need to manually adjust the knife's height (at least on the retrofit BORK knife).

   Because the BORK riving knife already presents a reasonably workable solution to retrofitting a riving knife to an existing saw, I think there's room for upgrading that original concept, and maybe even improving on it. The ultimate aim would be to fit an aftermarket riving knife to the millions of saws out there that don't have one - and to have that riving knife work in a manner similar to the ones on saws that are designed for riving knives right from the git.

   I'll be interested in your reaction after you look inside your friend's Unisaw..

   Zolton If you see a possum running around in here, kill it. It's not a pet. - Jackie Moon

8. 
   WillGeorge | Dec 22, 2008 09:33pm | #22

   Philip..

   With you metal working skills I'd bet you could make it into an End Mill if you could find a way to move that sliding table out a 'bit'....

2. 
   lwilliams | Dec 21, 2008 11:47pm | #15

   We have a couple of the wood mills and I've made quite a bit of the tooling we use. The idea of a fly cutter for wood is an old one and was used by one of the 19th Century US plane making firms. We also use fly cutters that we've made for wood. There is commercial fly cutter for wood on the market, I can't remember what it's called but it has three cutting bits. Those I made work better and have a much wider cutting range. It was in designing these and getting them to properly work that I really came to understand viscoelastic deflection in wood and proper clearance angles. You also need to understand your cutting geometry needs to cut with, against and across the grain. Getting it to work is a lot of fun and there's a lot to learn there.

5. 
   JohnRyan | Dec 22, 2008 10:57am | #20

   Hey John, I'm new to woodworking...a hobbiest...but am loving it.  I finished exterior shutters for my house about 6 weeks ago and am doing a fireplace mantel right now...well...after I upgrade the power to my garage...a new subpanel etc...so I can get some heat in there.  I know little of your subject here however, I LOVE new ideas and I always think there IS a better way...there is always room for improvement. Frankly, getting into woodworking I think there is a huge opportunity for improvements.  Like just doing mortise and tenon work...geez...I mean...although there are tools specifically for this...I cringe at the expense and specialization of it. So, a couple of things I guess I will mention here on what to create.  Being new at it, I did exactly what you mentioned...I got a planer, a jointer, a miter saw, a router a drill press and a band saw. Next, I'm eyeing a table saw...and saaaad that I don't have it yet...and using a circular saw and straight edges to do that work...what a pain.  I would say that spending money on new machines and limited space are the biggest considerations. Yes...there's a huge hobbiest space.  Now, ya, I'm a hobbiest...but i did 22 exterior shutters...not exactly a picture frame...ya know?  This summer I hope to make new garage doors, a bed..and I'm eyeing what it will take to custom make my own kitchen cabinets.  Hobbiest yes...but I'm not making trinkets to take to the local flea market.  So, your combo machine, I think, should be made in easily attachable and detachable chunks.  I have many of my "things" on their own rollable worktables that I made so that I can roll them out of the way and line them neatly together to save space.  For a table saw...I'm really liking the new Rigid portable saw...because it's nice, the price is good and I can get it out of the way.

   So, here is a bit of feedback I guess. I know I'm out of my league here but I also know that brainstorming, no matter how crazy...sparks ideas.  Being new to woodworking...reading...watching vids..scanning sites like this...I think of what I need, what I want.  Ya sure there are other options out there...but having a look at a few of them...they still can only combine a few things...for quite a bit of cash.

   Something that...is as mentioned above...a table saw, a band saw, a miter saw, a jointer, a planer, a drill press...yessss...something for making mortise and tenon joints, a router...but more than just a router...something that is a table router and a plungeable router...with making box joints in mind and recessed cuts like for hinges. Have a table that is capable of being wide and long but also short and thin (thinner?). Have holes in the table...for dogs (dogs right?)...a place for a vice.  Seems to me like attention to what kind of motor and how it can be manipulated would be cool.  Functionality like, use the miter saw, then rotate it upside down and slide up into into the table portion...latch on an extention...rip a 4x8 of something.  Remove the table/mitre saw blade attachment and latch on a router with a foot pedal to raise it...bring it through the table or swing it up and latch it into a plunger..which is...say...part of the plunger mechanism for the drill press.

   Sell the motor/table/plunger/vice mechanism as the base chunk, then let the buyer buy the pieces, like the table saw/miter saw...then they can buy the table extensions...the router, the drill press.  Why does my band saw have a pully system while my router does not? So..use a variable speed motor. The table, make it adjustable up and down...so when it's used for the drill press...you can adjust it. Put sturdy handles on the components so it's easy for a guy to detach the miter/table saw...saw component and put it aside...and it doesn't weigh 60 lbs....or maybe to neatly tuck it away.  I think if the table sort of assembly was like $350...and each addon was  in the $50-$200 range.  Dang.  I mean, why do I need a different motor for each of my tools? (Ya ok fine...I know the immediate and obvious answer) but...there is another way.  A prototype would be expensive. I think I'd start by getting some used tools and taking them apart and retrofitting just the parts that are needed.  It would be fun to be a minimalist with that. I mean...look at the Festool circular saw...was laying a track down with a plunging circular saw that slides in it some kind of revelation?  Hasn't everyone made that mdf straight edge jig that fits your circular saw so you can slide your saw along and make those long straight cuts with it?  They made it nice...no, they made it excellent...and their stuff sells like hot-cakes.

   Anyway. How exciting. LOL, I get crazy about ideas too but I think it's cool. But to be successful, it would have to be over the top. Excellent at everything and inexpensive.