Replies

1. 
   davidweaver | Apr 07, 2010 11:56am | #1

   Can't speak to the quality. I know some of the first ones were good and some were duds, from reading reviews, and dud in ways that required you to fettle them a little.

   I have spoken to woodcraft corporate about other unrelated stuff, and the planes came up when I asked them what they're going to do to fill the LN hole. They are improving the quality on the WR planes (this was several months ago), presumably that means that they had some bumps in the process with the first ones and they're figuring them out. That's not really what they're doing to fill the LN hole, though, but it was brought up as one of the things they want to focus on now that they don't have the LNs to sell at most locations.

   Only way for us to know if the WRs are getting better is to get out there and buy them and let people know. I think WC does have a fairly generous return policy if you're not happy.

   A #6 should be 18 inches long.

   You'll get all kinds of suggestions when you ask a question like this. They often start with "you just need to get some old planes and fix them up". You need to make sure that the suggestion you follow allows you to do woodworking. Cleaning up an old rusty plane and fiddling around with it when you want to do woodworking is not that great of a use of your time as a beginner, you're not in an apprenticeship.

   Your best deal is if someone who really is familiar with hand tools and who has high standards decides to sell an old bailey 6 that is in proper shape. Absent of that, not too many of the options are cheap with guaranteed success. If you want to try the WR, worst you have to do is ask for your money back if you don't like it.

   Money no-object, I would suggest an LN 7 instead, but there's a large cost difference between that and a WR 6.

1. 
   JP017 | Apr 07, 2010 01:52pm | #2

   Thanks!

   I appreciate your comments, that's quite helpful! 

   I'm leaning towards a new WR#6 at this point, given what I've read.  Also, I've looked on eBay and so forth and as you say, I'm not interested in spending a ton of time fixing up a rusty old plane.  I don't mind fiddling with a new one for an hour or two, flattening the sole if needed and sharpening the blade and whatnot, but spending more than that on an older plane is worth the extra money.  And shipping to Canada is pricey, so the eBay ones don't end up being as good a deal as it looks.

   Also given the return policy you mentioned, I am definitely leaning towards it.  Thanks again for your comments.

   Cheers

   J-P

2. 
   9619 | Apr 07, 2010 03:09pm | #3

   David,

   After retiring, I took a parttime job at the local Woodcraft store.  I used to get a pretty good discount on the Lie Nielsen tools.  Now LN only sells to three specific Woodcraft stores, and the one in Springfield, VA is not one of them.   I was heartbroken when I got the news, last November that LN was dropping most of the Woodcraft stores.   Shortly after that,  Lee Valley decided to stop selling any products at Woodcraft.   Previously they only sold a few, but they were very good products.   

   I don't think you will see any improvement in the Wood River planes.  Woodcraft has a number of store brands such as Wood River and Pinnacle.  The Woodcraft brands do not seek, IMHO, to compete with the best.   They are a cut above the current Kunz and Stanley planes, which isn't saying much.  I wouldn't own any of the three.  If I was shopping in the low price range, I would buy old Stanleys and fettle them (I have done this many times). 

   Woodcraft has a "rival" store chain - Rockler.   If you don't get the Rockler catalog, you should.  I believe it is the harbinger of what I see happening at Woodcraft.   Rockler seems to be leading Woodcraft in a move toward, the direction of Harbor Freight,  in that the big names have disappeared, and the new stuff is all from the Orient.   Did you know that Woodcraft once sole Holtey planes?  

   The markup is not high on LN and LV tools for stores like Woodcraft and Rockler.   There is big profit in massed produced goods from the Orient.   Rockler is getting more and more premade wood furniture parts (legs, stretchers, table tops, feet, hardware ----   sort of like Van Dykes.    Woodcraft has also beefed up its hardware department, but has not yet started with the furniture parts.   I would bet that they will be coming soon.  

   Rockler doesn't have many tools left in their catalog. I didn't see any BIG TOOLS.  Their only chisels are  Irwins.  They are still big into router paraphenalia.    I believe they bought Bench Dog.   They sell a lot of router tables and bits.   Big markups there.  While Woodcraft still has big electric tools in their catalog and stores,  I would bet that they have not been selling well.  My experience is that the BIG money maker at Woodcraft right now is the paraphenalia for turning pens. We sell A LOT of PEN BLANKS and KITS.    

   In the Woodcraft store I work at,  there is still a lot of interest in The Fein Multimaster, and in the Festoos.   It is not a large group of folks that is into Festools, but they are very loyal to the brand.    The Fein Multimaster sells well to contractors. 

   I am more into hand tools.   Not much of the good stuff left at Woodcraft.   Pfeil gouges and chisels are really great, and we still have those.   We still sell Starrett brand squares, but not many people. ask for them.   The store brand squares that go on sale for less than $20 are much sought after.   The comparable Starret is closer to $150.  The Starrett and the store brand squares look alike,  just like the Wood River planes look much like the Lie Nielsens.

   Actually, I don't see many knowledgeable customers coming in and looking for high end hand tools.  I do see those folks at the Wood show at Dulles Expo each year.    Lie Nielsen did two shows in the greater Washington area last year, and they were well attended by folks who like the good stuff.  I am thinking that the folks who like the premium tools just buy them directly from LN, LV, etc.

   Something else is happening to the demographics of woodworkers.   I believe the average woodworker age is increasing by a year every year.    Since shop is no longer taught in the high schools,  kids are not getting exposed to tools.  I belong to the local woodworkers guild and the carvers guild, and the average age in each is "retired".   I am 66 and I am one of the young ones.     All of this makes me wonder about the future of woodwork, especially "fine woodwork".     I'd love to see kids get involved.  I tried with my three.  No luck.  They like the stuff I make, but they are not interested in making furniture.  

   Woodcraft and Rockler are going to do whatever it takes to stay in business and to make money.   Nothing wrong with that.  I believe the trends that I see in what these two chains are offering is nothing more than a reflection of the changing demographics of woodworkers.  

   Any thoughts?   This is a very interesting topic.   Northern VA and the greater Washington DC area is a BIG PLACE, but the Washington Woodworkers Guild only manages to get about 60 members a month to go to meetings.     Woodcraft can't be expected to stay in business by catering to "fine woodworkers". 

   Mel

1. 
   davidweaver | Apr 07, 2010 04:38pm | #4

   I agree with what you said. I used to like to go to rockler, because it's close to me, but there is almost nothing left in it other than the ability to get TS blades with a coupon, which isn't something you do every day. Most of the rest of the stuff is musical chairs with what of the imported plastic is on sale, and one can only have so many generic odd jobs tools and poorly finished combination squares. 

   Nothing worthwhile to speak of other than carving tools, but they have gone to nosebleed, and I like pfeil better if I have to spend the money. As you, I see woodcraft going that direction some, and I'm not sure someone can survive otherwise.

   I also agree that most of the original "craftsman and unisaw gang" is headed for the door age-wise. By that, I mean the guys who had shops in their basements, maybe tried a shopsmith, or a craftsman saw, built a lot of stuff with lots of biscuits where a lot of sanding was involved, and polyurethane for a finish. That was and is a very large segment of the population, but I think there is a second layer of people behind there who want to build to build, not necessarily to have a piece done. How much they actually build and how much they use the tools they buy (and how long they stick with the hobby), I don't know.

   I'm not a social woodworker, aside from woodworking with one other guy who likes handtools OK, but he really likes super high $$ power equipment a lot better (like multirouter through Martin kind of stuff). I don't get a good sense of whether people are going toward building things with pocket screws, or if they are going toward what peter follansbee does on the other end. I am probably closer to the latter, but no green wood. I don't make much, seems I get consumed in the process a lot and the tools, and maybe make two pieces a year, but I spend enough time in the shop that were I building fast to make pieces and not getting so hung up in the details, I could probably fill my house. I think the old guard built to make pieces, they didn't like getting hung up in process, and they liked to work quickly (not all, but most of them).

   I'm really getting nowhere here other than to agree with what you're saying. There are things that I like to buy that only one or two people in the world carry. If they go out of business, I'm really stuck. I see a lot of my older relatives talking about being able to get X or Y as a kid, but "nobody makes them anymore", and I have the feeling that a lot of the moderately priced tooling and supplies that we see now will eventually go that way.

   Anyway, back to the plane. Do you find that people think those WR planes are serviceable? I'm always at a loss with planes (for advice) if I don't have one to sell cheaply or give to someone, because I know people who have tried one or two hand planes 10 years ago or so and actually quit the hobby because they thought there was some sort of magic or art required. I recognize at the same time that people don't want to buy LN or LV for their first go-around because they are afraid they might get something and not like it, and I know a guy who did buy a few LNs and never learned to sharpen properly, and he gave up until I picked up the hobby. It's sort of tough to make a recommendation to someone about a middle-of-the-road tool because there are things about it that are probably better than an old plane with a broken tote and a pitted iron, and things that don't measure up against planes where every single one is known to be a pearl.

   (I *think* I may have noticed Karl's planes at woodcraft, but I think it's more likely that I remember them from The Best Things. He's such an accessible guy now that he drops in forums time to time, and since he's got an excellent blog of his processes, that I can see why nobody would go through a retailer to get one of his planes. I put a post on a forum a while ago that I was starting an A13 project, and unsolicited, he sent me a message offering help if I needed it. Exchanged a few messages, etc. Quite a pleasant surprise).

   Round-about to the topic again - my first real plane was a LN 6. I watched the charlesworth video on sharpening right away, did what it said, and was on my merry way. Before that when I was getting my first power tools, though, I found a stanley bench plane, late model, that was perfectly clean and unused. It was so horrible I almost never bought another plane (the frog sat drastically diagonally and the sides of the iron weren't even parallel). Since then, maybe 100 planes have been though my fingers, and from time to time, I get one that would knock the wind out of a non-fettler (even though the seller says it's in use or ready to use)- one that couldn't be used just with a quick sharpening, even at a coarse level. That's what keeps me from just quickly saying "buy a used stanley from the beginning of the lateral era though the WWII era", because if one comes with stripped screws, or that's been lapped into a banana, or with an extremely pitted iron or chipbreaker that's been mangled, I don't know if it's worth the $100 difference it would've been to just buy one of the mid-level planes. As soon as you know how to fettle a plane and have something to shoot for, vintage is far and away the best choice, though. The only thing that sucks on them for us is the adjusters, and that's really only an issue for smoothing woods that would probably benefit from a plane that doesn't care about grain direction.

1. 
   9619 | Apr 07, 2010 05:25pm | #6

   David,

   You and I are in complete agreement on everything. 

   You asked about my thoughts on the WR planes.  Three or four of the other guys who work part time at the Woodcraft store bought a few.  They say they like them.  I asked each if they ever used them.  I think the answer is no.   Two of them had another guy sharpen the irons for them.  Does that tell you anything?        I did have one guy bring one back with a broken adjuster  mechanism.  It just broke in two.  

   I have tried them, and found that they don't measure up to my standard, which is LN.  For example, with an LN, I can reach down with one finger and adjust the depth while in th e middle of a stroke.    I can't do that with the WR.  The mechanism is not in the right place and it is hard to work.   Probably just poorer quality workmanship.  

   I recommend LNs because they are so good, and they are FREE - in the sense of life cycle cost.    You couldn't resell your WR.  But if you put your five year old LN up on EBay, you can get almost all of your money back.   If you have the money to get LN, there is no other way to go.    Like you, I don't like to recommend poor or mediocre tools because people have a hard time with them.

   Nice conversation.   Thanks.  Good luck.

   Mel

2. 
   cahudson42 | Apr 07, 2010 04:51pm | #5

   WR Planes

   Hi J-P,

   About a month ago I got a WR #4. At the time, I was hesitant  because of the reported unsquare frog and other problems. WR had 20% off, and free shipping at the time. That threw the decision to a 'go'.

   The plane arrived. I am very happy with it, and reported my initial impressions here on Knots at:

   http://forums.finewoodworking.com/fine-woodworking-knots/hand-tools/kunz-replacement-plane-irons-3-4-any-good-and-woodriver-blades-goo#comment-666056

   Hesitant again, I looked at completing the set with the #3, #5, and #6.  With the free shipping and 20% off - the three would be $300.

   I thought - What compares? Well, one LN for $300. Maybe three LVs for $600. And finally, from Highland, a #3, #5 and #7 Anant Kamals - at $255 - with shipping additional..

   Well, I own the #3 Anant Kamal. No way is it comparable in machining, fit, and finish to the #3 WR.  Plus its a Bailey design, with the limited area frog/blade/sole mating surfaces. The WR - as you know - has the full-machine faced frog/blade/sole mating surfaces. Compared to the Kamals - its a 'no brainer' to get the WRs.

   Now I do own the LV Bevel Up smoother. While the #4 WR seems comparable in finish - the LV worked great out of the box. No so with the #4 WR - but all I had to do was hone the blade - really nothing else.

   If the difference between $600+ and $300 means little to you - avoid the risk and get the 'proven commodity' - LV.

   And now that the 20% off is gone - and shipping charges are back - the three WRs are now - what? - $360 plus shipping.

   My three additional WRs just arrived yesterday.  While they look good - and all three seem to project the iron squarely - I have yet to hone the blades and try them.

   At this point, I am happy that I bought all 4 WRs. Remember, if you buy an after-market thick blade, and thick chipbreaker - they are maybe $30 (chipbreaker) and $35 or so for a rough WR equivalent thick O1 blade. $65.  So I rationalized 'the rest of the plane' was $35, as I can always use the blade/chipbreaker in an old Stanley or whatever...:>)

   So for me its WR or LV - LV if you have the money and want the comfort of knowing you likely won't get a dud. WR if money is tight. You get a dud -at worst you have a thick blade and chipbreaker.

   Good Luck!

   Chris

3. 
   davidweaver | Apr 07, 2010 05:37pm | #7

   Those two things are just the alloy of the steel. A2 is a little more alloyed, mostly chromium.

   I think there is a lot of confusion about just how different they are when they are to the same hardness - and the answer, I believe for practical use in american hardwoods and softwoods - is not much.

   However, most of the time, O1 steels are hardened in the high 50s and A2s in the low 60s, which is a significant difference in how they feel on a stone.

   I haven't seen anything that comes from china that seems like it was accurately spec'd a2. I have seen mujingfang planes that are described as A2 in literature that retailers here use, but they are much tougher.

   You don't get into a significant difference in wear without getting into M2, and that's not common.

   I prefer A2 irons, but mostly because I know they're going to be a hardness I like. If I had oilstones, I would probably prefer 01s.

1. 
   JP017 | Apr 08, 2010 11:14am | #11

   Chris and David, thanks for the comments!

4. 
   cahudson42 | Apr 07, 2010 06:15pm | #8

   O1, A2 etc.

   Hi J-P,

   O1 and A2 steels - and which to get for a plane iron - is a lot like asking which religion is best.

   In my understanding, A2 'can' hold an edge longer (not dull as quick) as O1 '(sometimes simply called 'high carbon or HC). A2 is more money.

   But  you will sharpen O1 faster than A2.  And A2, if honed to a bevel less than 30-degrees, is prone ( some say the 'cryo' ones don't)  to 'chunking out' at the edge much more than O1.

   I use the Brent Beach 'scary sharp' sharpening method. Its fast - and - except for my LV bevel up smoother - my blades are all O1 - and old Stanley HC (laminated if you can find them). So I'm fine with all my O1's.

   If you want to really get an education on all this- spend a day or so reading all the stuff on Brent Beach's website at:

   http://www3.telus.net/BrentBeach/Sharpen/index.html

   Regards,

   Chris

   P.S. - the Australians - and Kiwis - with their many reversing-grain woods etc. - seem to be the most knowledgeable on different plane irons, angles, etc.

   Check out: Woodwork Forums: http://www.woodworkforums.com/

5. 
   gdblake | Apr 07, 2010 10:55pm | #9

   What do you plan to use the #6 for?

   JP:

   If you stated what you  intend to use the #6 for I missed it.  Typically a #6 is used as a fore plane for fast straightening and flattening of a board.  This type of work doesn't require a super highly tuned plane.  The WR #6 is definitely up to the task.  If you are planing to use the #6 as a panel plane (basically a large smoother) you may want to consider the LN BU jack instead.  I say this only because BU planes are easier to adjust the cutting angle on (you just hone a steeper micro bevel on the iron).  Otherwise, assuming the frog properly lines up with the mouth of the plane, the WR #6 will perform as well as most other bevel down planes with a 45 degree bed (and better than the new Stanleys or the "low end" planes).

   Any time you are buying a plane you should make sure it passes inspection. 

   1.Check the iron and chipbreaker to make sure their bevels are square to the sides (if not you can easily fix this). 

   2. Check the sole for twist and flatness.

   3. Check the mouth of the plane to make sure it is square to the sides  (if not send it back) and without burrs. 

   4.Check the the sides to see if they are square to the sole (if not you can lap the sides to correct this assuming they are not out by much.  You only need to do this if you plan to use the plane with a shooting board).   

   5. Check the frog and make sure it seats square to the mouth (if not send it back). 

   6. Check the lever cap for twist and make sure there aren't any gaps where is makes contact with the chipbreaker.

   7. Make sure the adjusters work properly and that the iron feeds smoothing in and out while the level cap is in place.  If the lateral adjuster has to be turned all the way to the right or the left to get a full width shaving something is wrong with the plane (usually an out of kilter frog so send it back). 

   8.  Oh, I almost forgot, check the slot in the chipbreaker to make sure it is centered side to side and square to the sides of the chipbreaker (I have seen the slot miss cut on a couple of old Stanley and Record chipbreakers that made it impossible to properly adjust the iron in any plane).

   Hope this helps,

   gdblake

1. 
   JP017 | Apr 08, 2010 11:13am | #10

   I plan to use it mostly as a Fore.  I'm intending to get a smaller smoothing plane as well.  Mostly I wanted to avoid getting a jointer for as long as possible.  ;-)

   Thanks for the comments, all of this is helpful. 

   Cheers

   J-P

1. 
   9619 | Apr 08, 2010 03:20pm | #12

   JP,

   Let me make this short and sweet.      You can use just about any long plane as a foreplane,  even an old wooden plane.  They don't have to be fettled well or set precisely.   YOU WILL HAVE TO LEARN THE SKILL OF USING A PLANE TO FLATTEN AND SIZE a piece of wood.   This will take a lot of time and effort, and initially it will probably be frustrating.   But stick with it.  The skill will come, if you stick with it.

   About a smoother.    I have an old tuned up Stanley which works well on most of the wood I use, but I do not live in Australia where they have wood with crazy grain.   For "normal" wood, a nicely fettled old Stanley is cheap and very good. 

   If you want to go cheap and good, try a Mujingfang smoother.   The iron is great.  The price is cheap, and they work very well, ONCE YOU HAVE THE SKILL.     You have to adjust the depth and centering with a small hammer.  You can learn to do this with practice.     I guarantee that for less than about $40, you will be able to put a glasslike surface on "normal" woods.  

   The trouble with getting into handplanes is that when you ask a question, you can't understand the answers well enough to evaluate who is telling you useful information.   So it is essentially a crapshoot.   Sorry about that.   There is no other way than to get a few planes and practice, practice, practice.    If you can get with someone who knows handplanes, you will learn faster, but that is not always possible.   If you are near a woodworking club,  JOIN IT.

   Most of all,

   HAVE FUN,

   Mel (you can trust me. and you better worry about what everyone else is saying    :-)