When I finsih a project the ladywife generally spots a weak moment in my resolve and inserts a woodworking task in the to-do list. She is a rascal.
Last year she indulged in (I mean cannily aquired at a bargain price) a cedar summer hoosey with shingled roof etcetera. She did baulk at copper guttering and downspouts, as it costs £37,801.67 per metre. (Or some other mad amount).
So, knowing I have a tool in the shed named “gutter adz” she demands now that I make some. And she also found out that wooden guttering was not only common-place until quite recently but that it’s still the norm in places like Leeds – although it seems to be machined from softwood then painted, there.
So, a green woodworking friend, who co-incidentally I saw today, has oak logs that he is taking out of his coppice wood this June. He is thinning out some thicker, older trees as this lets in light for the coppiced stuff to grow more vigorous. The larger logs are generally charcoaled (he is a swill-maker and uses smaller oak trees as its the sapwood he wants not the heart wood). He reckons theseolder tres are between 8 – 12 inches in girth and will have a good degree of heartwood in them.
My questions:
Can someone save me a bit of Google searching and point straight at a web source concerning the making of gutters from the log?
Does anyone have experience of making wooden guttering from the log with froe, drawknife and gutter-adz?
Lataxe, a guttersnipe.
Replies
I vote for copper.
-Steve
Google yankee gutters.
Would she consider the "chains" the Japanese use?
I've done a fair bit of froe work ( in excess of-20,000 bd/ft). I've also made and repaired some wood gutter. Here's my two cents (you get what you pay for) :
1) For froe work and for gutters, use the straightest grain possible. To me this is the hardest part. picking out a straight grain in the log ( I buy them for riving clapboard in 12'-16' lengths) can sometimes be tricky. Look at the ends of the log, if the checking on the ends are radiating straight out from a nice central heart, that's good, if they curve ...stay away. Even then that's not positive of straightness. I've bought logs that looked great on the outside, but, didn't rive worth a d*#!.
2) Older growth seems to "work" better. The logs I buy are a minimum of 2-3' dia. If I can lay hands on logs 3-5' dia ,the better. The growth rings should be small and evenly spaced from the center. We had to make (recovered cypress from FL.) shingles once or twice and we were counting 30-40 rings/inch.
3) Wood that rives well;
Oak (white better than red)
Cedar/ Cypress
Some Ash, Pine ,,, depends on the tree
4) tools for gutter , chain saw, blackpowder , sledge hammer & wedges , Froe & break , gutter adze , gutter hand plane.
If you need longer that 15'-16' sections, you'll need to join them with a scarf or some other type.
That's about all that's at the front of the brain. Like I said "it two cents worth"
Bill D.
Quality Wood Chips
Billy,
Excellent information - my thanks.
The coppice-worker friend I have has plenty of good straight oak, of various diameters from 4- 12 inches. He uses the coppiced 4 - 6 inchers hisself, as he makes swill baskets from sapwood splits; sapwood is prevalent in the younger coppiced trunks.
The summer house I want to gutter has 10 foot sides, so I'm hoping to find some straight runs of that length and with a reasonable amount of heartwood, as I'll drawknife off the sapwood, assuming it would rot in one season. I'll rive the trunks in half down in the coppice wood where they're cut - plenty brakes there, not to mention a handy coppice worker with plenty of froe-skill. :-)
You mention a gutter plane. I'm going to have to look that one up! Is this a chance to buy another plane for the herd!?
I wonder if you know of any website or a book that might have some information about making and jointing wooden gutters of a primitive kind? These gutters I intend to make for the summer house will be more for collecting run-off in a butt, for the garden, rather than protecting from the rain. They can be real simple and rustic.
***
Gretchen,
What is the Japanese thang you mention?
Lataxe,
Here are some pics of my gutter plane;
OK. . .I gotta ask! What do you use the black powder for? Regards,Ron
OK........ When I make riven clapboard, I start with White Oak logs about 2- 4' in diameter x 14-16' long. I use the Black Powder (actually it's Pyrodex, Black Powder gets to unstable after a time) to split (blow apart ) the log in half. And then into quarters if the log is big enough. I have an old VHS tape of the process, but I don't know how to get it on the computer so you can see. I measure to the mid point of the length of the log. Then use the chain saw to plunge cut a "pocket" down to the heart of the log. Then I put a loop of regular cannon fuse into the "pocket" so I have two ends of fuse coming out of the pocket. Then pour about 1/2 -2/3 cup of powder in the pocket. Pack it with wad of paper towel then pack it with dirt/sand/whatever to the top. Twist both ends of the fuse together, light and WALK AWAY. Powder goes "BOOM" , log jumps about 2' off the ground and lands in two nicely split halves. Then as I said do it again if the halves are big enough. Save a lot of time instead of splitting with sledge & wedges........Yes I notify the local constable/sheriff/neighbors when I blow logs. Works VERY well with nice straight logs so I can look inside the log before I start the riveing process. From there it's chain saw, sledge and wedge, froe till I have clapboards 3/4-1" thick clapboards (outside edge) x 6-10" wide x 3-8' long.
As I said in the previous post, it's picking out the nice straight logs, that is the hardest part.
Bill D, QWC
Bill,
You have made my day with that description of the tree-bombs! Only in America. :-)
I wish you could get that video into a wmv or other computer movie file. I would love to see it, as would my green woodworking pals who (being somewhat hippy-like) would be aghast. How I would love to see their little faces,all shocked!
However, I will be keeping my froe. Such shennanigans as your black-powder procedure would definitely draw a frown of disapproval from the local rozzers and beaks. I would soon be lolling in the pokey.
Lataxe
Lataxe,
I am not the computer whiz (I make saw dust, but my son, who is FAR beyond anyone else in the household in computer-ize, says "sure Dad, no problem". Sooo...possibly....maybe in the next week or so, he says he can have something to post from the old VHS tape. He's not sure of the quality, but he will do what he can.
I'll post as soon as he gets it on the "magical machine" . Incidentally, he broke my 'ol Dad heart last year when we were building a small timberframe. It was about 102 in the full sun, and he looked at me just as serious as you could look at someone and said " Dad I don't want to do this, I want to do computers...OK?" I said " OK , son...but you'll know HOW to do it..OK?" So far he's been doing honors and excelling in the tech field.
Anyway I'll let you know when.
Bill D. QWC
UTube has a video of a burr oak log about 6 feet in diameter being split with black powder. Look here.
Verrrrry Interesting!!
Bruce"A man's got to know his limitations." Dirty Harry Calahan
Wingdoctor,
The second side show/video " splitting a white oak" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SUuUzAieig is more the way we do it. Either way ....IT'S FUN !!!!! Fireworks are illegal here but you can buy blackpowder just about anywhere. Thanks for posting the links.
Bill D. QWC
Myeeeeeee Boy,
After reading Billy's prescription involving bunker bombs and the like I believe you should take the Good Wife to Chermany for a quiet break. Go to Bremen where you can study many guttering systems going back to the days of Attila the Hun . I believe nowt less than copper will do, myself, personally.
But bunker bombs are quite exciting nonetheless.Philip Marcou
Philip,
Riving-powder! It might be a Big Seller down in the Cumbria woods, although we should not encourage too much rivalry bewteen the hobbits and elves who live & work therein lest their sploshuns affect the Lake District tourist trade. The sight of a discombombulated tourist would surely discourage further visitors to the district, despite the cream teas, boat-rides and nice vistas.
We cannot go to Germany just now as we are due in Wales. Anyway, I imagine that Attila made gutters and downspouts from the hardened guts or even the tibias of his many victims. Such manufacturing processes are frowned on by the rozzers and beaks thee days, although it may still be a legal tradition in The Deep South of Amurika, where they apparently exploit all resources quite mercilessly, including their many prizonahs.
Copper would do for them gutters. Please send the spare rolls you have, along with plans and a forming tool. Over here the stuff costs so much that people are melting down the coins of the realm in an effort to get some cheaper (or so I heard; one cannot always trust the rumours).
Lead could always be stripped off the church roof, in time-honoured fashion. However, despite the fact that no one goes there anymore, the rozzers and beaks are still agin' the practice; and in any case, its too heavy for an old gimmer like me to manage.
Lataxe, a little gutternipe.
Lataxe,
Copper? Rustic?
We tar 'em o'er heyuh, no feathers though.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
I cannot post pics. Site says that my pic allotment is full. What's up with that. I didn't know I had an allotment, how do I delete or what to post more pics. Does this affect everyone or just those who have used their allotment?????????????
Wanted to post pics of my gutter plane for lataxe to see.
Bill D.
Bill,
Oh I wish I had an answer to your plight but sadly I don't. It seems Mzinga has thrown a wrench into the workings of Knots and as of right now there are, in my opinion, no viable options for us.
It seems as though Taunton needs to hammer out a solution with Mzinga or vice versa as the case may be but certainly a 1 Mb allocation for pics is not enough.
Ye wanna blame someone? It was caused by all those folks who have high speed access to the Internet and posted pics with a kazillion bytes in em! Scuse me while I get out my hard hat to ward off the flak that's about to come my way.......
:-)
Regards, Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
> Ye wanna blame someone? It was caused by > all those folks who have high speed access to > the Internet and posted pics with a kazillion > bytes in em!
Hey! I resemble that remark! Wait... how many is a kazillion, 'cause I my ginormous posts only have a bajillion.---------------
/dev
Go to the bottom of the page that lists the attachments you've posted to date. Click on the "If you think this is the wrong total" link. I understand that that'll reset you to zero used.Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PAEverything fits, until you put glue on it.
Mike,
Does it delete all the previous pics posted or add more room to post??? If everyone deletes their pics there's going to be a lot of good info and great pics lost. Thanks for the info, but I think I'll wait alittle while and see if " Them what be in charge" can (or cannot ) do. Plus the fact that I REALLY am dinosaur when it comes to the tech stuff.
Bill D. QWC
It doesn't delete anything -- just resets the limit. For now, anyway. Once Mzinga discovers the glitch, they'll probably scratch the button.Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PAEverything fits, until you put glue on it.
Billy,
I'm getting an idea now about how to proceed and there seems little doubt but that a gutter plane will help a lot, as otherwise my gutters will have lumpy canals, as well as potential warp! I'd love to see that piksher. Have you thought about opening a Photobucket account and posting pics from there? (It's free). The pics then appear in a post as pics rather than an icon you have to open in a separate window.
You can also find a pic any where on the Internet, right-click it and select "copy" then "paste" into a post and the pic appears there. So, if you know of a pic of a gutter plane somehwere on the web..... Is this a decent example (I found it here):
http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.oldtools.com/FW10547.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.oldtools.com/wooden.html&usg=__jp9EBsZNQHS0xO72pBCJ7Of-wtU=&h=342&w=550&sz=24&hl=en&start=3&tbnid=XDeRVAOj10YYhM:&tbnh=83&tbnw=133&prev=/images%3Fq%3D%2522gutter%2Bplane%2522%26gbv%3D2%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG
View Image
I do have a small Mujingfang plane with a covex profile - not as big a radius as the gutters will have but maybe I can use it to smooth out the worst bumps. I'm wondering now if I can find a scaled-up version with a larger radius, as dedicated gutter-planes seem thin on the ground here in Blighty (as in "absent altogether"). I bet some ancient green woodworker somewhere in the Cumbria hinterlands has one buried in the depths of his shed.....
Lataxe
Lataxe my friend,
Now you have the wood and the plane, only thing missing is the apprentice! Seems that a job of this sort would be best handled by some excited young lad who might want to take up the craft as he grows up. A few hours slaving away in the hot summer sun would certainly build some character not to mention some cute little muscles for the young ladies to oggle when schools starts back up in the fall.
A man with a sharp plane has always done it for this girl!
Madison
Hah hah ha !
I was looking to see if anybody would ask that ....
Maybe he should use some gunpowder or semtex instead- plenty of riving power there....Philip Marcou
That's a lot of material to remove by hand. I'd use a shaper -- y'know, a power tool.
When you say "oak", I hope that means white oak. It does okay in water. Red oak dies pretty quickly.
Jamie_Buxton
Good idea !!! When I think wooden gutter , I always think museum stuff when they want it all "hand made". Power tools...who da thunk it...???? He could band saw a small dia log in half and then circular saw a large "V" in it. AND THEN... just run a router bit down the inside...VOILA!!!!!!! LE GUTTEIR!!!!!!!!!! Again GREAT IDEA ...power tools.
Bill D.
QWC
Edited 6/1/2009 1:16 pm ET by billy5151
FWIW, there are a few roofing gurus over on Breaktime who deal with wooden gutters. You might want to try a post over there to get the benefit of their knowledge & experience. (Which, for a couple of those guys, is huge, BTW -- there are several true roofing experts who post there regularly.) Also know that wooden gutters are often lined with copper, which may actually cost more than simple hung copper gutters.
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
Everything fits, until you put glue on it.
Mike,
Posting to Breaktime sounds like a good idea - I'll do that.
Green oak gutters froed, knifed and adzed then lined with posh copper!? No, no - these items must be rustique! After all, if they warp or split after a few years I can go down to the woods again for more. I might hang them up there with copper slate ties (they are inexpensive).
And, to the fellah who warns of red oak: Cumbrian oak is, of course, English. :-) It's too far to sail for white oak, which anyway lacks the pleasing cats paws and pin knots.
Lataxe, who lives in Angland.
hidy lataxe,
city water pipes from the late 1800's are sometimes dug up at construction sites around here. my dear deceased friend, 92 at the time of departure, found several when he was young. he was into that sort of historical collecting. there is one in the local museum, due to his efforts. i have examined it and saw that it was coopered, as in stave construction. six-sided and strapped with copper banding. maybe your wife's pleasure could be had by way of some similar construction technique. in no time at all they would grow all mossy due to the english damp.
just a thought...
eef
Eef,
You are trying to make me work hard with all that cooperin' . :-)
In truth the summer hoosey has simple construction and could probably do without any guttering at all. The planned wooden gutter is really to add a bit of rustic decor but also to collect rain into a butt for the garden.
So it needs to be simple albeit functional. It also needs to be quite small, to stay in proportion; so I'm hoping that sections of hollowed-out oak heartwood of maybe 4 inch diameter will be sufficient.
Obviously I'll need to obtain straight lengths, which is usually not a problem in a coppice wood. The difficult design aspects (for me, being ignorant of such matters as yet) is how to joint them at the corners, run down pipes, attach them to the facias and maintain them so they don't crack up.
I've taken a photo or three of the summer hoosey bits where they will attach and will be posting the question to Breaktime in a day or so, as helpful fellows here have suggested that there will be even more helpful (and knowledgeable) chaps over there.
Lataxe
Lataxe,
joint them at the corners, run down pipes
Ayyyyiiieeeeeee!
Is a downspout rustic, eh? Can't say as I've ever thought of them as being rustic, but then agin I don't live in blighty. Mebbe they are o'er theyuh?
Please do a photo essay as you're now an expert at it. I want to see you hollow out a 5" log with ye froe. That should be downright entertanin I reckon. Also, are ye gonna joint 'em tagither with an axe?
If ye want I kin geet ye some small mouth beaver but ye gotta train em tuh chew in a straight line. Then agin cooperin might not be all that bad afterall. 'Sides, ye said ye want it rustic
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 6/3/2009 9:04 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
Edited 6/3/2009 9:05 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled