My wife bought me a set of lie neilson bevel edge socket chisels from Woodcraft. The Woodcraft web site indicated they required sharpening. When i looked at them, they had a radiused bevel. This did ot agree with the literature that came with the chisels. I sent Lie neilsen an e-mail explaining this and they replied saying that their chisels do not require sharpening as they are sharpened at the factory. I have attached their response. Please beware.
Hi Tom,
This is the first we’ve heard that Woodcraft is recommending and sharpening our chisels before shipping. They are all sharpened by hand
here at our shop and are very sharp, not needing additional sharpening before use. You do not want a radius on your chisel – they are intended to stay square to keep your work accurate.
I think we should take a look at your chisels and correct any improper sharpening that has been done. Please send them in at your earliest convenience to POB 9 Warren ME 04864. Please include a brief note or copy of this email along with your return address. We will turn them around within a few days and will send a note letting you know what we did.
I apologize for the trouble. We will certainly advise Woodcraft not to do this in the future. If you have any additional questions please let me know.
Thank you,
Michelle
Edited 12/28/2006 6:34 pm ET by TomFerreira
Edited 12/28/2006 9:25 pm ET by TomFerreira
Replies
Tom,
I bought LN chisels through my local Woodcraft with no problem. I wonder if your experience is simply unique to whoever you dealt with. Did they make some extra money for the sharpening service?
Alan - planesaw
Tom,
I can see why you were dissatisfied with the folks at Woodcraft, sharpening a chisel, supposedly for a fee, that didn't need to be sharpened. But the hollow grind doesn't really make an edge weaker and you could eliminate it the first time you sharpened them yourself.
John White, Shop Manager, Fine Woodworking Magazine
Tom
What Woodcraft probably did was put a hollow grind on your chisels. They probably used a Tormek, or similar sharpening system. It doesn't weaken the chisel at all. I have a Tormek, and also a full set of LN chisels, as well as a few other brands. They all have a hollow grind on them, and all work equally well as when they have a straight bevel.
LN ships their chisels sharp, but not honed. There is a difference. You want about a 3 to 5 degree microbevel polished right at the tip for an extremely sharp chisel. I doubt that you'll need to send these back to LN, but their yours, so do as you please. As long as the edge of the chisel is square, and not with a camber, than they will work swimmingly for you.
Good luck.
Jeff
I've been reading a number of books and articles about sharpening tools recently, and haven't seen any that recommend a 3 to 5 deg microbevel. Any reference available for this or is this what you've personally comeup with?
I have run across serveral recommendations to be very careful when honning chisels and the like on leather or similar not to round over the edge and increase the bevel angle near the edge.
David,A few months ago FWW featured the Veritas MKII. The process includes sharpening plane/chisel blades to 25 degrees, honing a micro at 30 and then turning the little dew hickey on the wheel twice adding 1 degree each time(#184, June 2006).
Edited 12/29/2006 6:53 am ET by BG
Dave
I can't read or write, so I can't tell you what book it's in, but I can tell you it's what I was taught, and it's what I've seen for as long as I've been building furniture. I don't know what the books say, but a honed microbevel works just great, and is alot easier to polish than the entire flat bevel. About 10 passes on the stone, or whatever sharpening media you use, and it's ready for wood.
Look, there are a hundred ways to sharpen a tool. Everybody has their favorite. I won't get into the debate of what is the best, cause there just ain't no such thang. Get the tool sharp, and put it on some wood. That's the camp I come from. If you can rub the bevel of your chisel on the bottom of your foot fast enough to polish the edge and remove the burr, than by all means, have at it. Disclaimer: I wouldn't recommend that procedure! LOL :-)
Happy holidays, and happy new year!
Jeff
Folks,
Sorry it's taken a couple of days to get an update but it's the last week of the year at work and things have been crazy.
Anyway, hollow ground is correct, I appologize for the incorrect assessment of "radiused".
Wood crafts reply to this was:
"We sharpen chisels on a 16” diameter wheel which slightly hollow grinds the bevel. This allows easier re-sharpening. When the bevel is placed on a flat stone, with hollow grind, just the cutting edge and very back edge of the bevel rub the stone, so less metal has to be removed. It is still plenty strong enough not to weaken the edge."
LN's reply was:
"We contacted Woodcraft yesterday and advised them not to recommend this service with our chisels. We will replace your chisels if need be and charge Woodcraft for them and they have agreed with this arrangement.
I'm sure you will be reimbursed for the sharpening fee but if you do have any trouble let me know and I will take care of it."
I believe both companies are very good and they will make it right. The point of my post was to inform all that they may be getting more than the bargained for with the sharpening service.
John White - I do believe that hollow grinding weakens the chisel tip which could lead to failure in heavy use situations. You certainly have more experience with this than I, and I respect your view. However, not only does LN not recommend this, but the chisels were not very sharp as received from Woodcraft. I can see honing a microbevel but why would they regrind the the whole bevel?
TDF
John White - I do believe that hollow grinding weakens the chisel tip which could lead to failure in heavy use situations.
Yup.
If hollow grinding weakens the chisel tip then I submit that the angle of the chisel tip was changed during the hollow grinding. The angle of the cutting edge is commonly thought to be the average of the angle from the edge to the bottom of the blade whereas the actual angle of a hollow grind edge is more acute than this. If the original angle at the edge is maintained (the angle produced by the tangent of the grinding wheel), there is actually more supporting metal behind the cutting edge of the chisel, so if anything, it is stronger than the flat grind.
Hi Chas,
Happy New Year.
I sharpen all my tools on a 6" bench grinder at home, and about a 12" or 16" grinder at work.
All tradesmen are trained almost without exception to do so, here in Australia.
You're probably right - hollow grinding marginally removes a bit of support from the edge, but I'd contend that it's purely an academic issue.
If an edge chips in service, I just increase the grinding angle a bit -> problem solved (usually.) So, my 30 degree hone on a bench grinder might equal a 28/29 degree flat lapping of the primary bevel. This makes a little difference. There could be other sources of variability that more significantly affect performance such as heat treatment history, grinding history and/or abuse of the chisel.
Some people recommend a convex grind on a mortising chisel - in this way, grinding may have some effect on performance, but for mine, I hollow grind all chisels and they work fine. The actual grind angle I choose is the one that makes the chisel work well.
The primary bevel is then honed with a secondary bevel, so the wood at the cutting edge sees the chisel at the secondary bevel angle. The hollow grind may, once again, affect chip clearance at an academic level (or maybe a practical one with reference to the mortising chisel comment above.) But, in any case, I have yet to notice a problem and a 16" grinder would leave a negligible hollow in the chisel (while my 6" grinder leaves a bit deeper hollow.)
There's many ways to get to Rome.
Best regards,
eddie
For fine paring it is an academic issue. If you ever ask your chisels to do more - like a bit of mallet powered work on a housing bottom, for instance, then I'm not so sure.
But it's no big deal.
Charles,I share your thoughts - it's no big deal.There's probably a theoretical difference in the angle for heavy work and performance of a chisel that's flat ground and hollow ground, but I believe it's marginal. Maybe half a degree to a full degree difference between the hollow ground angle I use and the flat ground angle that produces a similar result.I just grind the chisel to an angle that keeps the edge intact under all conditions and go no steeper.Wishing you the best for 2007 from a (happily) raining New Year's morning.Cheers,eddieEdited 12/31/2006 4:33 pm by eddiefromAustralia
Edited 12/31/2006 4:44 pm by eddiefromAustralia
A 16" wheel used properly [or even the 10" and 12" wheels I use] will produce a hollow grind that is nearly immeasurable across the bevel of a chisel. Had this "service" done a proper job, followed by a proper honing, this post would not have occurred. Nor, done properly, does a hollow grind produce a weak bevel.
It is a pity this was even recommended to have been done on your new chisels--that's a mark against this particular Woodcraft, or at least this sharpening service. I would hope that for this sharpening service, this instance was simply a poor result. If not, that Woodcraft should evaluate who they use for their sharpening.
Kudos as usual to TLN & Company for they way they handle themselves.
Take care, Mike
OK, So maybe i missed it but did someone ask for or pay for a sharpening service on these?
Doug Meyer
Doug,I believe their website at least is set up to 'add' this service to your shopping cart by default. I recently ordered a set of Irwin/Marples Blue Chip chisels from Woodcraft, and there was a default check beside the sharpening service. I inquired as to how it was done (hollow grind or not, on what i.e. Tormek, etc.) and whether the back was flattened. Since the back is not flattened as part of the process (the most annoying/tedious part, for me) I opted not to spend the extra $$$ on the sharpening service for my chisels.Odds are if she ordered them online, it was tacked on by default, and she may not have even noticed, or if she did, may have though it was the norm. For Marples chisels, probably not a bad idea. For LN chisels... it kind of smacks of taking advantage of the customer (assuming a non-woodworker is buying a gift for a woodworker).At any rate, it looks like LN and Woodcraft are making things right for the customer in the end, so hopefully everything will work out OK after all.YMMV,Monte
"I recently ordered a set of Irwin/Marples Blue Chip chisels from Woodcraft, and there was a default check beside the sharpening service."
What next, undercoating? Sounds more like the tactics of an unscrupulous car dealership (pardon the redundancy) than a reputable tool retailer to me.
Those kinds of tactics stem from a position of greed, not customer service, and are essentially anti-customer. When I come across these kinds of questionable practices, it leads me to question every other aspect of the organization's ethical conduct, and I become very likely to stop transacting business with them entirely. -Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
Tom,I'm going to take you to task for a number of misunderstandings that have developed in this thread. You are obvioulsy not experienced regarding the preparation of a cutting tool's edge, nor with the way in which chisels, in particular, are sold to the customer. You are continuing to misunderstand the situation and to voice expectations that imply substandard service and value, when just the opposite actually occured.First, your included quote from John White (is that FWW's John White?) that a hollow ground bevel weakens the chisel tip is out of context and misleading in the worst way.Second, quoting you, "However, not only does LN not recommend this, but the chisels were not very sharp as received from Woodcraft. I can see honing a microbevel but why would they regrind the the whole bevel?" shows that you simply do not understand the situation that you and your wife set swirling in motion.There is nothing wrong with being a neophyte about these kind of things, but when neophytes loudly stir up a mess and imply that the universe, not they are at fault, then it's time to tell them to sit down and be quiet and to set the record straight.1. Hollow grinding does NOT weaken the chisel tip unless the grind is made on a ridiculously small diameter wheel, perhaps 4" or less. Hollow grinding on even a 6 inch wheel produces a robust leading edge when that edge is honed. If the wheel is 8" or above (and Woodcraft used a 16" wheel), the matter is moot. The "hollow" produced by the ginding is inconsequential to the strength of the cutting wedge.2. Woodcraft SHARPENED your chisels by hollow grinding them on a VERY large diameter wheel. They are absolutely correct is asserting that this grinding prepares the tool for final honing in a way condusive to proper honing with the least effort and greatest accuracy. Woodworkers have proved the efficacy of hollow grinding chisels for centuries. Your wife must have specified SHARPENING when ordering. Nothing wrong with that and nothing wrong with Woodcraft for having done that.SHARPENING does NOT make the chisels ready for cutting wood. That requires HONING and that's YOUR responsibility. Don't complain that " the chisels were not very sharp as received from Woodcraft." You have the choice to ONLY hone flats on the hollow-ground primary bevel, OR, hone BOTH proper primary bevel flats on the hollow-ground bevel PLUS a microbevel on the leading edge, OR, hone ONLY a microbevel on the leading edge of the hollow-ground bevel.But deciding which to do requires some understanding of both sharpening and honing and blade geometry.The way you have presented things, you have made it seem that LN does not recommend hollow grinding of their chisels. That is NOT the case. They simply want them to arrive at the customer's destination the way they left the factory, as "factory-new" items, with the type of grinding (sharpening) they put on them. That's OK, they have the right to tell re-sellers to leave their product "as-is."But Woodcraft did NOTHING to devalue your chisels. In fact, I believe they were engaging in a time-honored practice by good resellers by ADDING VALUE to the product (and your wife apparently gave them instructions to do that).Because LN is so good when it comes to customer service, thay have offered to send you new chisels. I don't think you are entitled to new ones. Unfortunately that's the way they need to deal with someone as inexperienced as you and who has made such a fuss. After all, in their first letter they were responding to a customer who claimed his chisel edges were "radiused!" Sure they reacted! If you were an experienced woodworker, you would have immediately recognized this whole situation as completely, absolutely meaningless. After all, following any serious use of the chisels, you will be presented with the reality that they need (horrors) re-honing, and soon, (double horrors) re-grinding. What will you do then?I think you have made a very big deal out of nothing. These kinds of situations drive suppliers crazy and probably drive up the cost to all of us due to the need for them to recoup "the cost of doing busieness." Sounds like you need to take a few classes in (at least) tool edge preparation.Rich
Rich, you're a bit rough ..... but absolutely right.
Rich,
Thanks for your observations. It's always a pleasure to get advice from experts such as yourself. Maybe you could pass your thoughts along to Lie-Nielsen who said that the chisels should not have been sharpened and advised Woodcraft to not recommend this service for their products. I'm sure they would also appreciate your vast experience in these matters and benefit in the knowledge that they have the wrong approach to this.
Secondly, I have the utmost respect for John White (yes, of FWW) and was not quoting him but responding to him.
Thirdly, yes I am a neophite. I have only been doing this for 20 years and learn something new every time I do another project or read another post here. The more I learn the more stupid I realize I am so keep the info and criticisms coming. As my wife tells me 'I have only one feeling and it's busy doing somethings else, so you can't hurt it'.
TDF
Rich14,
Nope, I think your wrong here. LN's key selling point is "out of the box, ready to go quality"...how could they now accept the chisels would be improved with additional sharpening? Second, LN has had a problem with edge retention on these chisels..there was talk about a 35 degreee bevel to help the edge. I don't know if resharpening by the folks at Woodcraft would impact that issue...but I'll guess LN doesn't want to take that chance.
Lastly, when I bought my 4 1/2 at Woodcraft I wanted it the way LN produced it...no mouth adjustment, no lever cap tightening, no nothing....for once I wanted to see what a good plane was supposed to feel like. I don't see anything wrong with Tom wanting the same thing.
Ok let me ask the question that some of you seam to want to ask but are just assuming the answer to.
Can we get a clarification of how these were bought? In the store vs online? Also can we get a clarification on if the so called service was asked for? Paid for? Or just something that happened? If it was paid for was this something that Woodcraft suggested?
I think the big thing here is that it appears that LN (the maker of the tool) does NOT think that this was a good idea. And would like this not to be done to their tools. So if that is the case then WoodCraft should not recommend this.
I have family that I send to Woodcraft because they do not know anything about this hobby and I figure around were we live it is the best place for them to go to shop as I expect the people at the store (and I would assume the web page) to give them good advise. I would have a problem if they recommend something that the tool maker does not. Perhaps those of us in the know can decide for themselves what is a good idea and what is not but those outside the hobby and new to it can not. Frankly I have no idea what is a good idea and what is not for sharpening. This is an area that I am just getting into and need to learn a lot, so if they tell me something I am more likely to listen to it, but I would hope that they would not tell me something that the maker (at least one with LN reputation for quality) does not agree with.
As for the post saying it was the original posters own fault because he lacked understanding. Excuse me? You have got to be joking. Do you really want to say that someone that does not know what he is doing (and in this case his wife that we have to assume knows even less) is responsible when a salesman tells them they should do something? What next? Is my nephew going to be responsible for doing something stupid in a car in a year or so when he is learning to drive because his instructor told him to and he was too inexperienced to know better?
I would think that a newbie would if anything be given the benefit of the doubt as he does not have the knowledge to make that informed decision. Not that he would be taken out an Hung because he (or his wife) may or may not have gotten bad advise. And as for if it was bad or not. Well I have looked at a lot of old post here and else where and I have to say that their is not a definitive answer to how to sharpen a chisel. So in this case I would have to side with the maker.
I sure hope that when I have an issue because I don't/didn't know better that I don't get slammed for causing my own problems.
Doug Meyer
Excellent point Doug. By the way, the people who work at my local Woodcraft Store are not what I call "qualified teachers". Who's to say that when his wife went into the store to buy these chisels, it was nothing more than the guy working the counter's opionion that they needed to be sharpened? And for that point, we are not driving up the price of tools...........it's called customer service....something you cannot get anymore.
Doug,
My wife bought these through Woodcrafts website. When she read the description it indicated, as does the LN literature that additional honing was required (actually I think the description came right off the LN site). Below that, the chisels were offered at a particular price with a field for quantity, and below that a selection for sharpening which was selected and would require deselecting to not get the service. She thought that it would be good to get whatever sharpening was required so the chisels would come ready to use out of the box. The sharpening service no longer appears as a selection now because LN has contacted Woodcraft and asked them to not offer this service with their chisels. this is evidenced by their reply to me on the 29th below:
"
Hi Tom,
We contacted Woodcraft yesterday and advised them not to recommend this service with our chisels. We will replace your chisels if need be and charge Woodcraft for them and they have agreed with this arrangement.
I'm sure you will be reimbursed for the sharpening fee but if you do have any trouble let me know and I will take care of it.
Thank you for sending along the attachment.
-Michelle
"
Even if I had bought the chisels myself I would have bought the sharpening service expecting that they would follow the manufacturers recommendations and only provide the additional honing of the microbevel. I would do this just so the chisels were received in ready to use state even though I would expect to have to sharpen them after some use. I would not however expect them to replace the original bevel all together with one done for expediency. Someone said that the original bevel would return after little sharpening, and Rich said that I was making a big deal out of nothing (paraphased). NO! I paid $300 for these and didn't pay less for woodcrafts version.
Anyway, the point of my original post was that if you order their sharpening service, you may not be getting what you expect. It was not my point to maline either company or warn of their bad intent.
I would also like to say that in all of this I have never said that Woodcraft or LN are bad companies. Just the opposite is true. BOTH companies have done the right thing in offering to make it right. Woodcraft has removed the service from being offered for LN chisels. I have had no problems with either and would recommend anyone to buy from them.
As for Rich, I think he is full of himself and needs to take a pill. It might also do him good to re-read the posts from the beginning and make sure he knows what he is talking about rather than shooting from the hip.
TDF
That was one of the most condescending posts I've read here at Knots.
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
My comments weren't meant to be, and were not condescending in the least. I stand by everything I said. If someone misrepresents a situation, correcting him is not a crime.The real problem is that Tom still does not understand that he has little appreciation of the care and preparation of a chisel for actually cutting wood, and he continues to mis-state LN's marketing advice out of context to support his unjustified righteous indignation about Woodcraft.He (and you) still don't understand what LN said to him or that Woodcraft tried to give service.It's one thing to say, "I don't know much, and I'd appreciate some help to better my understanding." But it's not alright to say, "I don't know much, therefore I can't be expected to understand that which others do, who have taken the effort to learn, and I must be treated with special consideration and favors."Rich
Rich,
Did I miss something in the post that gave you the information that you are basing your statement on? Or do you work for one of the companies being talked about? Or where you in the store when this occured? Or you have some other source of info I don't?
The reason I ask is because I see nothing in the original post that would lead me to believe that the original poster is miss representing anything. He very may well be doing so but I don't see what clued you in. Other then the fact that you seam to personally like the way the chisels were finished.
The only info I have so far is that they where bought by his wife for him and that they were modified by Woodcraft and that LN does not like the way they were modified. Now I will admit that I have no proof that any of the statements are factual, but I also do not see any proof that they are not and I am willing to give the original poster the benefit of the doubt.
But by all means please let me know what we are missing and that proves to you that the guy is his own worst enemy. I would like nothing better then to think that woodcraft a company that I and my family tend to deal with (for lack of a better option) did nothing wrong, but at this point I see nothing to say the guy is full of it. So please let me know what you know that we do not.
Because I would hate to think that you believe that if Woodcraft sold his wife this service that the guy and his wife are responsible just because they listened to the company that sold the the tool. And if LN says this should not have been done that the guys wife should have been told that in the first place. That would be like my mother being responsible because a mechanic told her she needed work done on her car and she had him do it then found out that the car maker did not recomend the work.
Doug Meyer
Here's what LN says on their webpage about their chisels:
"The backs are ground flat and finished by hand at 400 grit. The bevel is flat ground at 30°, but a higher secondary bevel (about 35°) is advisable, depending on the wood and how the chisel is being used. Additional honing is recommended."
Rich, why you find it to be "adding value" for Woodcraft to regrind the bevel on LN chisels? Do you think Woodcraft did a better job than LN did? Did Woodcraft hone the chisels so they would ready for use? If not then it's difficult to see where the additional value is.
"Engaging in a time-honored practice by good resellers by ADDING VALUE to the product" - depending on how it was represented to the customer, whether the customer wanted it or not, and whether it really added value it can be good or bad. Of course from most reseller's perspective its a good thing if it adds profit.
I looked various chisels at the Woodcraft website. For many but not all "sharpening" is listed under the chisel as an extra with the default being to add it.
a. I never order anything from Woodcraft, Rockler or any of those (full retail priced) catalog companies unless I simply cannot find what I want anyplace else.
b. LN sells direct which would solve the problem of a reseller bastardizing their products.
c. I say these things with full knowledge that this is not the fault of your sainted wife who was doing a very nice thing for you.
pins
Tom,
RI or Boston store?
Not to be lost in all of this is what a stand up company Lie-Nielsen is.
A hollow-grind is a concession to power grinding and honing.
A chisel bevel is the hypothenuse of a right triangle formed by the back of the chisel and the thickness of the chisel where the bevel terminates. There is certainly no ADVANTAGE in having a curve in the hypothenuse.
There is one advantage to having a hollow grind. Rocking on the bevel, leaving it rounded over, is more easily avoided on hollow ground edges. Consequently, free hand sharpening is practical--a significant time saver. For that matter, reducing the material to be removed while honing also is a time saver.
Did I miss something I did not see where the original post said that Wood Craft Sharpened the chisels for him (either for free or for a fee)
That being said it appears that someone did something to these chisels. I would like to say that this shows that LN is a good company to deal with, one way or the other. By all means please keep us posted as Woodcraft if one of the few places around here that I can buy anything other then power tools at. And I am the type of guy that really prefers (if I can) to put my hands on something before I buy it.
Doug Meyer
A procedural advantage but not an advantage when the unit is actually cutting. For that, nothing beats the simple wedge.
As far as the wood is concerned, the honed leading edge of the cutting tool is a simple wedge. Nothing much beyond that leading edge matters, whether the rest of the steel is relieved by hollow grinding or whether the sharp leading edge continues in a straight line back to the "heel of the bevel.
Rich
Maybe.
Not maybe, it’s a fact. I go way out of my way to get a good hollow grind on chisels and plane irons for the reasons already stated, (with a 6” dry, high speed wheel no less). Why would you ever want to spend the time honing the ENTIRE bevel when you can just have the edge and rear of the bevel being worked. No less authority than Krenov himself was a huge proponent of he hollow grind as was Tage Frid.
There seems to be a lot of misunderstandings since the original post.
Tom said is chisels were "radiused" not hollow ground. LN responded:
"They are all sharpened by hand here at our shop and are very sharp, not needing additional sharpening before use. You do not want a radius on your chisel - they are intended to stay square to keep your work accurate."
So they responded to the "radiused" issue assuming he meant (as I also assume) the cutting edge was not square to the long dimension of the tool, as Tom received them from Woodcraft.
So that issue has not yet been cleared up.
I am surprised that LN says the chisels need no additional sharpening "before use." Does LN mean they are honed and ready for cutting wood. Or does "before use" mean they need no additional grinding and are ready for honing? If they are honed, that's the first I am aware of a manufacturer supplying a cutting tool honed for shaving wood right out of the package.
As far as hollow grinding, yes there are many ways to skin the cat. I think hollow grinding a cutting tool to the right angle is the most expedient way of preparing it for final honing. Once it's hollow ground, it only takes seconds to hone and re-hone as needed to maintain the very sharp edge needed for good cutting. (Whether one wants to hone a microbevel is another matter, and there is good argument that if the tool is ground, for instance to 25 degrees, and one wants a 30 degree microbevel, skip the honing step at 25 degrees and just hone at 30 degrees, leaving the "heel" of the ground bevel alone).
Neither a hollow grind nor a flat ground bevel makes any difference in the cutting or handling characteristics of the tool once it's properly honed. But grinding the bevel flat dooms the user to arduous honing, while the guy with hollow ground tools can hone quickly and get on with cutting wood fibers.
Rich
Rih
I took his meaning as if they hollow ground it with a Tormek. I guess we won't know until he responds. I can't imagine anyone at Woodcraft putting a camber on a chisel! What would be the point of that, unless they wanted to turn them into gouges!?! LOL
Anyway, we'll find out soon enough.
Jeff
Hate to ask this but if they should not have been played with and the way they were played with looks odd (not normal way to sharpen a chissel) then maybe just maybe thier where played with by someone else. So are we really really sure these are new? And that someone didnt return them? Or some such? It will be interesting to see what LN says about what was done to them.
Doug Meyer
Doug
The misconception is that LN chisels come ready to use. They don't. I just got a set for christmas. They come ground, but not honed, just like most chisels when you buy them new.
I'll let the original poster come back and state what happened. I'm only stating the condition of new chisels.
Jeff
"I can't imagine anyone at Woodcraft putting a camber on a chisel!"You could if you had seen the Tormek stone at the Milwaukee WoodCraft. That thing was so gouged up it was ridiculous. Three or four grooves that were about 1/8" deep. Never seen anything like it.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
I'm sure you're right, Jim. I guess each store is only as good as its employees. The guys over at the store I go to in Palatine are mostly pretty competent woodworkers.
Happy New Year,
Jeff
PS Oh yeah, Go BEARS!!!! lol :-)
I tend to think they're only as good as the difference between what management wants to pay them to be and what they do to make it better/worse on their own. I filled out an on-line survey and it wasn't anonymous, even though it came from corporate. The owner of this one doesn't seen to have had much, if any, retail experience before. He now has his wife and daughter working there and neither know the products or the craft. THAT'S a problem. They keep filling the store with display inventory and SKUs but I don't see that they're selling a lot of big-ticket items. Some of the prices are pretty rude, too. This tells me that they aren't shopping the competition and in order to survive, they need to know what the others are doing. After further review, the Bears still suck. :-{P
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Tom, Best I can tell, someone at Woodcraft was either ignorant (unaware that LN chisels need only a honing out of the box unless you desire to change the bevel angle) or took advantage of your wife by offering an unnecessary sharpening service so they could make a few extra bucks. Bottom line, Woodcraft should replace the chisels as they needlessly took a small abount of length from the chisels (while essentially insignificant, it's similar to a scratch or dent sale appliance) and thereby rendered them used and less than pristine (i.e., what you paid for). They likely didn't ruin the chisels (unless they did a crap sharpening job where they overheated the steel or struck some crazy bevel angle), they just sharpened chisels that were already factory sharpened and took a few thousandths of steel off the length.
I think this is all about that simple.
Boy oh boy! Nothing gets peoples' socks in a knot more than sharpening.
Could we get some clarification in terms though? My Lie Neilsen chisels came sharp, but not "honed" I think that LN says that they are sharp, but recommend a "light honing" On all of their edge tools. So putting a final edge on them is not a bad thing really. For me a pass on some 2500 grit paper freehand and swipe or four on a strop brought them to incredible sharpness.
I can't imagine paying extra for this, but I'm not new at this either. Woodcraft was wrong to rework the bevel during their "sharpening" but it sounds as if they hollow ground the tool and didn't "hone" it. I'm sure it's the same treatment they give to any tool as part of their sharpening service.
The whole hollow grind debate is silly, IMO. Hollow grinding does save some time if you sharpen a lot. So for the sharpest chisels (paring chisels) it really helps. But in that context, slamming the chisel into some Jarrah with a ball pein hammer and crumpling the edge isn't really an issue, you'll have other chisels for rough work.
For the heavy duty work with firmer chisels, don't hollow grind them! For mortise chisels, convex-grind them and bash away!
It's funny, someone mentioned Tage Frid as an example. He sharpened his chisels with a belt sander to a honkin' wire edge and then honed on a hard felt wheel. It works great! The edge isn't real straight or square and you eat a lot of steel doing it, but it works! No lapping plates, no water stones, no honing guides, no microscopes and when the chisel was worn down to the nubb he went to the hardware store and got another one.
And made lots of furniture...
David C.
I just went to the Woodcraft website and went through the purchasing process for a set of Lie-Nielsen bench chisels up to the final checkout (as much as I would like to buy them, I like living more!) and didn't see or encounter any additional sharpening or honing charges or even an offer to do so. For what it's worth...Tom
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