Is it me or is that entertainment center really lame?
I’m just spitballing, but it looks like something people put to the curb when they clean out grandma’s basement….true 70’s crap!
It’s like he spent more time ironing his Festool T-shirt instead of designing a nice piece of furniture.
EDITORS: When the plans for a piece include copious amounts of plywood, send them over to WOOD magazine where we’d expect to find them.
Maybe for the next video series we could be shown how to make a dorm room bunk bed??? Or a 2 x 4 picnic table????
If this is what is considered fine woodworking and what this website is going to pass off as fine woodworking, spare me….and save me my money and trouble for my dues for this website.
I’m over it….
Replies
Mr 77,
I'm sorry to say I have to agree with your sentiment, although you put it somewhat harshly. I looked at a number of those whispering vids here and there, after the small furore in Knots started by a bloke that didn't care for the whispering one asking for donations to support his website. Always best to look at a thing before passing any sort of judgement, tha knows.
I suppose the stuff the lad does is of interest to any number of amateur woodworkers but it does seem to concentrate on use of tools and jigs rather than on designing furniture. His output does have a rather lumpen aspect.
Anyway, I wouldn't condemn it but it's not for me; and I'm just Arts & Crafts 103. Those many FWW readers as likes frou-frou certainly won't be impressed, I would guess.
It would be interesting to know why FWW buys or otherwise takes up his output. Is it for newbies (I think the in-house FWW stuff for them is a lot better). Is it some kind of tool-promotion deal? I wonder if an FWW editor would care to comment.
Lataxe
Brace yourself, mowog, the '70's are due to recycle. Can't be any worse than the 60's, LOL!
Appears to me that the whole purpose of the project was to present something useful and relevant to today's HD-buying public, yet not a project that requires tons of expertise or a plethora of tools.
I haven't followed Marc's site, so I don't know the general drift of his presentations, but there's nothing wrong with tossing in a quick, easy project now and again.
Although I agree that the design of this Entertainment Center is my cup of tea. You should check out Marc's gadget station, that has some pretty cool lines. Here's what it looks like:
I agree that the design is lacking in taste. Backs up my belief that I wish the magazines would focus more on design.
Most of us know how to cut a well fitting Mortise and Tenon. We've seen 20+ Tablesaw reviews. Tails or Pins first?...covered.
But many of us lack severely in design skills. And I realize its not easily taught. Its a darn gray area and difficult to explain.
Hmmm... Interesting. I'm kind of in both camps. I'm trying to really build up my skills. With the nicer designs, I can't figure out how the things are made! Most of my stuff is still very basic, but at least they are designs that I can't normally find at a place like Pottery Barn. Tails or Pins first? A nice fitting hand cut dovetail still eludes me! For one thing, I can't even get myself to not turn the bandsaw on half way thru the cuts! ;-).As for the tool reviews, I think that's at least half the reason why I do woodworking... the cool tools!
Looks a little heavy to me.
Jim
Just testing my wood eye. Is that Bubinga and Zebrawood?See my work at TedsCarpentry.comBuy Cheap Tools! BuildersTools.net
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The intro is pretty clear that this project is very basic in design and construction. Yes, he admits from the start that it is a "70's" throwback, but useful for today's electronics--particularly a large flatscreen TV. He also states that the design is more of a suggestion than an absolute work of art that must be followed step by step.
Each of us have culled through countless design concepts and have made our own adaptations. Many "Knotheads" have very well equipped shops with long resumes of truly fine woodworking, but what about the occasional woodworker or the would be hobbyist who has only a handful of tools? Should we disregard such potential comrades or should we point them in the direction of a doable/adaptable project that may just spark their interest in a very positive direction?
No, I don't think you're right....that's sending a message to the website and magazine that it's acceptable to lower it's standards.
Not speaking up is the equivalent of voting for mediocrity.I've been subscribing to this magazine for years and have valued it for setting the mark higher than the rest -- this sideshow is a let down.
I pay money for this website and magazine for FINE woodworking.The beginner/intro stuff, even though it was well-done was really pushing it...and I understand they need to broaden their customer base in these tough times, but it's very disappointing.Let's agree to respectfully disagree.With respect,
Erik.
Hell, I make the equivalent of voting for mediocrity all the time!
Sometimes better!
momog77,>this magazine for [ quality/difficulty ] higher than the rest .
I pay money for this website and magazine for FINE woodworking.Yep Yep !Where else can a bloke look ? I subscribed to a European mag for a year and that was ok but FWW is better ! Especially 2006. This year has been spotty. I paid a bunch to get the mags from Europe though to be fair I got more mags per a years subscription price.The newbies/timid folk can buy the other magazines which do a fine job of the basic stuff and I am certainly not putting that down. Not at all !. I just want to read about the masters in FWW. Way past, past and present.Elitist. Ok call me/us that.When I looked back the other day to recommend reading material for poor old Habilis who was alone and lost in the wilderness. I found that some of my favorite articles were from other mags. Woodwork and even Wood mag e.g., Paul Schurch Wood magazine March 2001.Is Woodwork even around any more ? They got too artsy fartsy and my little magazine tobacco shop that I went to practically my whole life closed ( up until that point I never subscribed; bought full price off the rack all my mags trying to support them until the end ). So have not kept track of Woodwork mag.A funny thing about Wood whisperer is I was watching a video, I think it was of an interview with Christopher Schwarz, and there was so much swaying in the camera person that I stopped the video for two reasons. 1) to still the sea sickness. Hey I am land locked in the desert here ! and 2) to leave an email asking them what the hell were they thinking ? Quite humorous actually looking back : )I did really enjoy the interview and thanked them for it.I think they bought a tripod after that.Of coarse FWW is going to say 'this is a magazine written by the readership so write an article '. I am not there yet. If ever. But a guy can whine can't he ?>they need to broaden their customer base in these tough timesI hate to say it but maybe we are looking at another price increase. I would pay it if we can get back to the top notch.The last several issues I have found myself saying. Didn't they just have this article a few mags back. I would like to see more historic stuff and trips to people who are out there doing killer work but not heard from because they are working not writing. FWW go search them out. E.G., Fred Stanley the 2005 Cartouche award winner.roc
Edited 12/21/2008 3:03 pm by roc
Mo
Fine Woodworking is a for-profit commercial entity. The Wood Whisperer is a for-profit commercial entity. The later has a large online readership and FWW wants to tap into it.
The "content" - entertainment center video - isn't there because of its merit as a fine woodworking project. It's there because it will cross link readership/viewership with the purpose of increasing revenues for both parties.
The entertainment center video is on the home page of The Wood Whisperer right now. His viewers get to see a teaser part of it and then are directed to go sign up for FWW to see the rest. Here's the exact text from TWW:
"Now here comes the fine print. The introductory video (below) is free, but the remainder of the videos require a FineWoodworking.com membership for viewing. In six month’s time, I will be able to release my own versions of the videos here at TheWoodWhisperer.com for free. If you aren’t already a member of FineWoodworking.com, you can sign up for a 14-day Free Trial. I can honestly say that as a member of their website for over two years now, it really does represent one of the best deals around in woodworking education."
The members of FWW are being worked to take a peek over at TWW and the viewership of TWW is being worked to slide over to FWW and take out a free trial subscription. If all this "working" of the audiences works, both sides increase viewership and thus revenue.
If not for this, would FWW have devoted such space to a piece of questionable 'fineness?"
It's marketing and, really, there's nothing wrong with it. We just have to see it and understand it for what it is.
Frank
Frank,Marketing...got that...loud and clear.But again, if we don't stand up for something, we fall for everything.You and I are paying (Fine Woodworking's profits) for this website and magazine to be inspired by great works, to pick up a design detail from a master craftsman, to be challenged by a truly excellent piece of furniture, maybe learn some efficiencies in our process, etc.There are clearly other magazines that serve the beginner or weekend warrior crowd -- I chose Fine Woodworking because it wasn't one of those other magazines.The entertainment center is bush league....the type of project in high school shop class!!!Thanks for your input, in any event!
Subscriptions account for a relatively small percentage of magazine or website profits. The true "engine" that allows such enterprises to keep running is advertising. I, for one, abhor all of the garbage ads that appear in FWW. Surely not all of the ads, nor all of the articles for that matter, are indicative of fine woodworking, but I accept the superfluous in order to enjoy those articles that are of interest to me.
Mo,
I agree with you on all fronts and I want FWW to be that magazine that will inspire us with design and technique articles at an advanced level.
However, it seems that they have made a considered decision to include content that is going to bring new, more entry-level, subscribers who aspire to a higher level or who simply like seeing and reading about fine woodworking.
It's reasonable for them to do this. I just think they have to be careful to keep the vast majority of the content at the higher level.
Recently, FWW has done some marketing things that the readership finds mildly abrasive.
Frank
As one who has remained silent throughout the many "anti-FWW" threads, I've finally been pushed over the edge by the sudden focus on the Wood Whisperer -- by both FWW and Popular Woodworking. I also think that it relates to another thread detailing the dearth of decent woodworking programs on television.
I was with a large-market PBS station for about 15 years and had the chance to do some events with Norm, Steve Thomas, and even Julia Child. If you look at the detail and production values that come with a Russ Morash production and compare it to anything created by the DIY channel, the decline is pretty stark.
In essence, the world has become more focused on distribution (cable television, the internet) and less focused on content (individual programs). In today's media market, ninety percent of success really is just showing up. The Wood Whisperer shows up and the woodworking outlets gobble him up.
Contrast his video with the outstanding "Palo Alto Chair" short film that, if I remember correctly, was hidden away on an editors page. One video takes someone with fewer skills than some large percent of the readership and "dumbs down" hand craftsmanship; the other champions creativity and real skill. I guess there is a place for both, but a change in emphasis would be nice.
If you listen to David Marks talk about the challenges he faced making his show, or have witnessed the demise of Woodwork magazine, it is obvious that the problem is universal. At PBS we didn't want to air yet another Doo-Wop, Yanni, John Bradshaw, or get-rich-quick-scheme during pledge drives --but we needed the money to survive so we did. I believe that FWW is in the same boat.
There is a long list of outstanding artists that FWW can highlight -- I just hope there are enough of us out here to make it worth their while.
Chris
Mo:
Agree with your comments. However, I think it much better to relegate Mr. Marks to an on line video than to place his entertainment center on 8 pages of FWW (with or without a cutlist ;-)).
Cheers,
Joe
I get a chuckle out of these threads that rip the mag or web site for cow towing to the lowly folk. My daddy use to have a great reply when people would complain about what awful stuff was on TV when I was a boy. "The dang things got an off switch!". While that project was not my cup of tea, I've seen a whole lot of other high brow stuff that while had a huge price tag and was labeled art, was ugly as home made sin, but I thought beauty was in the eye of the beholder so I would, in the great music lyrics of my generation, "Just walk on by!".
.Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
If you go to http://www.thewoodworkingchannel.com and browse their video library, you can submerse yourself in the Sam Maloof mikvah, cleansing away all the impurities of MTV superficiality.An aside. Back in the day as a advertising major, I was exposed to a horribly dry film series hosted by Fred Friendly, going on and on and on about ethics and excellence in journalism. I didn't "get" Fred Friendly, just though he was some old fart. Now I understand his titanic place in American journalism, especially compared to inch deep reporting done by news orgs today. Whoops, my bad, Fred.Back to the story. It's an entertainment center! Do ya really need a phD dissertation of design and form? You're probably watching football or frolicking ladies on the TV anyway; no one's noticing the use of golden ratio proportions.That said, Fine Woodworking (by its presumptuous name alone) should strive more to populate the Hall of Masters. An oft-repeated beef (by me) is there is a whole world of fresh and current woodworking, but FWW The Magazine keeps its sights strictly narrow - furniture items, A&C/Mission variants, and clamp racks.FWW, here's my idea contribution. One issue per year (it could even be a special issue), you do nothing except go Fred Friendly on your readership. Long stories about turning, instrument making, carving, intarsia, mixed media (wood/ceramic, wood/metalworking) abound, begging to be discovered. Just to be helpful, woodworking also takes place in countries not named USA, England or Japan. Cheers,Seth
That said, Fine Woodworking (by its presumptuous name alone) should strive more to populate the Hall of Masters.
Yes I agree. Although, not many willing to share their secrets we could use...
I wonder if ..
Francis Bacon, Artist - UK artist/painter of extreme figurative works. (1909-1992)
Salvador Dali - Famous Spanish surrealist artist. (1904-1989)
Leonardo da Vinci - Renaissance master painter and inventor. (1452-1519)
Damien Hirst - Controversial famous British contemporary artist (born 1965)
Frida Kahlo - Notable Mexican female painter known for her self portraits. (1907-1954)
Claude Monet - Famous French painter known as the father of Impressionism. (1840-1926)
Pablo Picasso - Leading modern artist of the 20th Century. (1881-1973)
Vincent van Gogh - Expressive Dutch master painter. (1853-1890)
Andy Warhol - Famous American Pop artist. (1928-1987)
Brett Whiteley - Famous Australian artist and painter. (1939-1992)
Ever let anybody in their 'shop' for a look on how they do their thing.
WillG,Thanks for the comment. In the case of the masters you've listed, does watching them work make more interest that deconstructing their finished result? I make one exception, which is Bob Ross from PBS, a man who criminally had immense fun making the most prosaic of landscape scenes he never visited, if they even existed.I'm fine with plywood projects in FWW Magazine, I cannot be so snobbish to forget the purpose woodworking serves, whether humbly practical or garishly superfluous. If you don't have a rich, patient patron (like Da Vinci had), you'd better figure out how to make your art pay the freight. Which is why magazines run tool shoot outs and projects-in-a-weekend. Yeah, that means having Norm Abram articles, too."Fine Woodworking" is a self-righteous declaration of artistic destination, and that's great...as long as they walk the walk, and a Mission style clamp rack is not fine woodworking. Harumph! My drum beating to have FWW The Mag populate the Hall of Masters is all about FWW's complacency; they've forgotten how to seek out the next wave of excellence beyond the comfortable (and recycled) brands of Maloof, Frid, Krenov, ad infinitum, because a standard style guide reduces the doubt of who might wanna buy the content.Cheers,Seth
Thanks for the comment. In the case of the masters you've listed, does watching them work make more interest that deconstructing their finished result?
You bet! Or Maybe not..
Depends on how you learn from others! Neither is wrong OR right!
I was NEVER in any of their shops.. I'm am OLD but not that old. I was just thinking that many of the 'Masters' were probably thought of as 'nuts or worse' until they presented 'A work that somebody liked'...
I just posted them because... IF.. I could watch.. I COULD learn something. Maybe just how the worker did things.. Or maybe how he instructed the 'grunt workers' to do a good job AS HE wanted it..
I learn from doing and making mistakes.. I need a guide, on some but not all things to learn or do better..
Hell, I made things that worked from orange boxes and the nails I salvaged for them as a child.. I could do the same now but orange boxes are hard to find these days...
I consider myself at least a sort of qualified woodworker.. I still look for other folks ideas! Nobody is the smartest on ALL subjects!
AND.. My first HI-FI cabinet back in the middle 50's.. In the basement, my folks looked in at least every 10 seconds on what we 'kids' were doing... LOL...
We had other ideas.. but just dancing at the moment.. We had 9 seconds to experiment!
Edited 12/21/2008 12:33 pm by WillGeorge
Edited 12/21/2008 12:40 pm by WillGeorge
From one Mo to another MO,
Frankly, a lot of projects coming out of High School shop classes intimidate me. No need to slam Andyfew. Just look back in FWW at some of the student works for some inspiration.
Most new woodworkers started because they had to build a plywood box, and they enjoyed it. In fact I still watch TV on one I built 30 years ago. Some folks move on to build better stuff, some don't. This project was designed to be built without Lataxe herd of planes, Dustys extreme Motor shop, or even my basic garage shop. Yep 100% newbie project.
I for one value that FWW is not elitist. They have room and make welcome newbies who want to learn more. Which one of us does not want/need to learn more? It is all part of education/evolution/intelligent design.....
AZMO
(who desperately needs time to build a new TV box...) <!----><!----><!---->
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Morgan,
Your TV would look great on one of them big Bubbawood workbenches you got out in your shop. <gr>
-Jerry
Jerry,
I was looking for a 142" Flat Screen TV jus the other day..... Might be able to see that across the room anyway!
Morgan <!----><!----><!---->
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Jerry, I think you may be confused about "Bubbawood". 'Round here, that's another word for old used truck tires. Stack a couple of those puppies from the old Ford (heck, it's on cinder blocks, anyway), add a pallet, borrowed from behind the Home Depot, and you gots yourself a fine TV stand. ;-)
Edited 12/21/2008 11:39 am by RalphBarker
Ralph,
Thanks for clearing that up. How will 1/16 lb. cut shellac look on that TV stand?
-Jerry
PS: Who's gunna tell AZMO about the Bubbawood....?
I'd say that 1/16 lb. cut shellac might look OK, but we usually just use white house paint - same as we used on the truck. ;-)As to AZMO, I'm more concerned about how to tell him that sawdust from that stuff makes a good bathroom cleanser. You know, bubinga scrubbles. ;-)
NO NO NO. Thats jus an ozark table for 4.
Bubbawood is a wurd mama uses.
Bubbawud a dunna dat, but he got hemsef a nasty rash right now an he jus ain't hiself
or
Bubbawud a dun dat but he's up at county right now.
or
Bubbawud a dun dat but he's sleepin one offa right now.
Which reminds me, got go to da store and get some Holiday Celbration material..
Cheers and Fun
Morgan
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I've read all of the discussions in this thread and I agree mostly with ALL of you. I don't think that by the title alone the magazine is being presumptuous. Just like a fine cigar, a real fine beer or a very fine woman. It's a name. While the entertainment center may be lame to some of us, most of us probably just ignored it like I mostly ignore the reproductions of flashy highboys, desks etc, that I will never make. I immensely enjoy the readers gallery, because I get to see the stuff from really talented folks out there. I read every woodworking mag that I can. I look at all of the ads and read all of the letter and the better part of the articles in all of them because I just might, (God forbid) learn some teenie little trick, hint, tip etc. I walk around in woodworking stores, hardware stores, lumber yards etc, and watch what little woodworking is on the bulb, because I LOVE Woodworking. I spend time in my shop for as long and as often as I can. I even subscribe to this forum and to Wood Central because I like to hear what woodworkers are saying. To me, that's what this is all about; not bitching because this mag has published something that has (sniff sniff) offended my sensibilies. The whole argument between hand tools and power tools is getting real old. We need to do and use what we want and quit talking down to the other side.
To me the word jig has been so overused and over popularized, I am waiting for someone to invent a jig to help turn on the shop lights. BUT, they have their place. I make and use jigs for some repetitive functions, but I can usually get a job done faster than the time it makes to construct some obscure jig. That is my pet peeve, but I still look at all the jigs that folks make and marvel at some of them.
We need to strive to be the Renaissance men and women that we aspire to be and embrace all points of view and skill levels, because there are very few of us out there that made a Maloof rocker as their first project. As one of you so elegantly stated, if you don't like the content of something, don't subscribe to it, read it or watch it.
I wish all of you, my brothers and sisters in wood, a very Merry Christmas and/or whatever holiday that you celebrate and healthy, happy and prosperous New Year
Hi all,
Thanks for the feedback on the entertainment center project.
As many have pointed out, it’s a beginner project. We specifically asked Marc to design a beginners project that uses a small collection of tools. It’s supposed to be a gateway of sorts as people build up their skills and tool collection.
We know it’s not everyone’s cup of tea, but we have plenty of other articles and videos to choose from online that may be more to your tastes.
We’ve been producing more of these long-form videos, so if you have ideas for future projects, please chime in. Feedback is always welcome.
Thanks,
Gina
FineWoodworking.com
P.S. About the style critique… we’ve all got different tastes. I personally like the retro look and must admit that I spent my economic stimulus check on a brand-new sofa that was described as “chic, 50s hotel bar”… anyway, happy holidays folks.
I found the entertainment center series too simple to hold my interest. However, the small cabinet video series and the side chair series were excellent, so keep em' coming FWW.
Marc's projects may be a little on the simplistic side (at least the ones he chooses to show in his podcasts), and he may be a latest-greatest power tool junkie, but he has found a way to use his natural talents, energy, and personality to make a living working with and talking about tools and woodworking. For that, I'll tip my hat to him.
If the project isn't elitist enough for you, say so. But personal attacks on the internet? Smacks of gutlessness to me. I offer you the same respect that you give.
I take your post more personally than I intended mine to be....Thanks big guy!
That was my intent. Hope next time you think and wait before you post.
Hmmm I'm wondering if you watched the video...
I believe the project is aimed at new woodworkers, as shown through the material as well as the goal of minimizing the number of tools...
Further he appears to be aiming for a 70's style... in fact he comments on it in the video.
While it's fairly simplisitc... I kind of like it...
While it's fairly simplistic... I kind of like it...
Sort of like when I was a boy looking for a girl... I told my way off in the future wife I had a stereo set. It was just two wooden boxes with speakers. Both connected to the same wires.. She thought I was rich!
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