I finished cutting my wood for a dining room table and was distressed to discover that I barely had sufficient material to finish the project. The portion in question is a 6’ refectory table with 19” draw-leaves for a total extended table of 48” x 110. There is an apron 4” height inset 4” from the table top edge. A rough estimate was 46-47 bf so I ordered 70 bf. The yard delivered 73 bf. Plenty for leftovers for a few small projects later on.
Since all of the parts were cut and I only had scrap left I figured the yard made a mistake so I measured every board as well as the straight-lining scraps (the widest was sapwood, maybe an 1” but the rest were much smaller), end cuts and few short, narrow pieces that will be useful as braces . One piece, about 4 bf was twisted and not useable for this project. I am very careful to get the most from my materials so imagine my surprise when the tally came out to 71.8 bf not counting an allowance for kerf waste.
I was rather generous in rough cutting to length the boards for the top but I had I cut them exactly to finished length I might have saved 1.7 bf, most of which would have probably been unusable as end-cuts.
I have always used a 25-30 percent waste factor but I will need to get this in mind for future projects and use 40-50 as waste factor.
Edited 2/12/2009 7:42 pm ET by DougGF
Replies
I've given up on trying to plan anywhere near how much wood I'll need. I usually just eyeball the pile and, when it seems I have somewhere near enough, I'll toss on 3 or 4 more sticks and call it good. I usually have some left over, but I'll always be able to use 'em down the road a piece. And if I need a few extra bits, there's usually some in the wood rack left over from the last project.
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
Isn't it funny, those leftover bits are never just quite enough for the next project though.... <!----><!----><!---->
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True, but if it was, I wouldn't get to make a road trip to the lumber supplier(s). I'm never too upset about another trip to the wood supplier. Some of the easiest, most enjoyable "work" I do. ;-)
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
I was back in DC a few months ago, and had a chance to stop at a wood supplier. Very different than our facilities here. I felt a bit out of place at first, quite chaotic, no organized racks of wood. Just stacks to the ceiling of various logs and pieces and such. It took me awhile to get orientated, wonderful hidden gems to be discovered. I envy your selections. My have to drive my PU out some day, rent a uhaul trailer and load er up.
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Every piece from the last project I do is either the right length and the wrong wood species or 3/16 inch too short. Unfortunately, I am a wood addict, so the lumberyard generally expects to see me at the start and the end of every project.
Ahhh, a member of the club. Murphy and me go a long way back. I built some toy trucks for some frenz, mixed up the wood so I could use whatever! ONLY project I did not have to visit the yard for.
Looks like you joined Knots just today, if that is the case welcome and let us know if you need anything. Since you posted for the first time today that is pretty kewl as well. Some very nice folks around here and you will enjoy it alot!
AZMO <!----><!----><!---->
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Thanks, I'm sure I will enjoy it here. Definitely found kindred spirits here. The winter before last, I had planned on cleaning out my scrap bin by having some very aromatic fires in my fireplace. That is, until I found an article about someone who took his scraps and made cutting boards. So, a project for which I would not have to buy any wood. Put together my scraps, maple, cherry and some walnut and they looked pretty boring. I decided to spice it up with some exotics. So, $150 later, I had some really good cutting boards and a whole new scrap pile.
tom,
Hey, let me git the door fer ya.
Welcome to Knots!
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 2/18/2009 5:25 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
So for Christmas I am just going to give people part of my scrap pile... Pour a little glue on it and call it modern art! See ya around. If you get some time, post some personal info and location about yourself in your profile. Always nice to know!
AZMO or Morgan <!----><!----><!---->
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Before I moved back to Silver City, NM, I never gave it much thought: buy what you think you need and then buy more and more to finish the job. We moved back to Silver City NM where if you want something other than No. 2 common fir, you drive 3 hours to El Paso or 3.5 hrs. to Albuquerque. There is a dealer in Albuquerque that delivers once every week if there are sufficient orders so youreally need to plan ahead. The bummer is that most of their hardwood is already dimensioned and the selection in the Southwest is really limited or very, very expensive.
Doug,
You got the best chilies and cusine in the world in your backyard. That's a pretty nice trade off for a drive to El Paso!
I use Mesquite here in Phoenix, saw up some logs from storm damage. Nothing big out of it, but side tables, coffee tables are very nice. Check out Woodworkers Journal, the Dec. 2008 for a great article on Mesquite.
Morgan <!----><!----><!---->
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Morgan,You're right about the food. Who is the best hardwood supplier in your area. I don't mind the drive.Doug
I know what you mean. I have now taken to buying any good looking stack of timber my yard has no matter the amount, especially if it is a bargain then I find a project that fits the available material. It seems to be a better way to go for me.
Yeah, I agree. It's like going to the supermarket and seeing what vegetables look freshest rather than going in with the preconceived notion that you're buying asparagus, no matter what it looks like or costs, because that's what the recipe calls for.
You folks with a road that leads to a road that leads to a highway that goes anywhere you want have got to quit complaining. Geeze, we would just like to build one that gets us to the continental highway system, and nobody will let us! I'd be happy to drive three or four hours to a decent lumber yard.
Greetings from the last frontier. Verne
If a tree falls in the forest, and no one is there to cut it up and make something with it . . . what a waste!<!----><!----><!---->
Nice try Verne but how can you complain when you've got all those trees right in your back yard. Grab your ax and just mill yourself a few planks-LOL.The problem in lots of the Southwest, and this is probably true for many other parts of the country not readily connected to a major urban area, is not the distance but a general lack of woodworkers and cabinet shops that build anything other than run-of-mill stuff so nobody really stocks much of a variety of wood. I can imagine you have much the same issue "up there." If it doesn't grow there then it probably doesn't get shipped there. Where are you in Alaska?Doug
You're right about the trees here, Doug. I live in Juneau and there is certainly no shortage of Sitka spruce and hemlock. They're all over my back yard, front yard, side yard -- I spend hours pulling up the new starts every spring before they turn into saplings with real roots. Only problem is that they're best suited to making paper and a little dimensional lumber. Once in a while, someone needs a mainmast for a sailing ship, and there are a few guys who make ends meet providing material for guitar tops and pianos, but there's not much cabinet wood.
It's possible to buy hardwood from the local yards, but the selection is limited, the material is mostly S2S or S4S for folks who need a book shelf, etc. The only solution is to buy large quantities sight unseen from the lower 48 -- preferably in cooperation with other folks so you can ship enough to save a few bucks. It's a challenge. I haven't had to deal with it for several years since I've been out of the trade and without a shop, but I'm building one this spring, so I'm anticipating some serious sticker shock when I start buying lumber again. Verne
If a tree falls in the forest, and no one is there to cut it up and make something with it . . . what a waste!<!----><!----><!---->
Good luck with the shop and then making some dust.Doug
Thanks Doug. BTW, I just went back to check some advice I'd received at "Things I intend to do diferently," and was reminded that you had provided some good info about your shop in TX. Last post there was my question to you regarding the number of 220 outlets you had. (my post was at http://forums.taunton.com/fw-knots/messages?msg=44974.40 ) maybe you could go take a look and give me an answer.
Verne
If a tree falls in the forest, and no one is there to cut it up and make something with it . . . what a waste!<!----><!----><!---->
Whoops. Sorry, you did answer. Never mind. Guess it's been one of those days.
Edited 2/14/2009 11:22 pm by Thorvald
One of the things I intend to do before I shuffle off this mortal coil is build a airplane from sitka spruce.. (maybe A Pitts special)
Aircraft spruce sells kits and they charge like $400. a bd.ft. for straight grain old growth sitka spruce..
You can't find it around here and I'm hoping that some day someone witha bunch of it would like to come here and trade it for some of the hardwoods that are so abundent around here..
I've got a couple of spruce that are coming down to make room for my new shop, but they're on the small side -- 100' or so. I know of some on the mountain side above my deer camp that are so big that one would probably yield enough to build your Pitts -- somewhere in the neighborhood of 150' and 4-5' through at the butt. All you have to do is sneak them out in the dark of night so the protectors of the old growth forest don't catch you.
BTW, if anyone is interested, when a tree falls in the forest while you're there to hear it, it makes a devil of a noise! Verne
If a tree falls in the forest, and no one is there to cut it up and make something with it . . . what a waste!<!----><!----><!---->
Verne,
when a tree falls in the forest while you're there to hear it, it makes a devil of a noise!
It's the trees final gasp as a living plant, like a desparate cry into the air. It rises up releasing its stress as you bandsaw it into boards, not about to give in. The boards release moisture as they lie stacked and stickered, making checks on the ends in defiance of your intensions. Cupping and twisting in a final stand against you.
You mill out the cups and twists, sawing, jointing and planing; picking just the right ones. Painstaking measurements taken, sawing precisely to the line and paring with chisels to make the dovetails precise.
Once assembled into the intended piece and your finest finish applied the wood once again smiles as if it is content to be in it final resting place.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
I like that - thanks. Doug
Bob,
I darn near went out to burn all my hoard of un perfect boards ,,
until I read the happy ending and the " final resting place " profound but true .
dusty, a wood hugger
when a tree falls in the forest while you're there to hear it, it makes a devil of a noise!
Cut down more than a few BIG trees in my life. Some branch by branch and the trunk by slabs so nothing fell onto the roof.. Had to to keep my house foundation intact!
Each tree died with a different voice. Some branches snapped like a rifle shot and others went with a quiet whimper... I really hated cutting them down but they were planted way to close to the house.
Will,
I really hated cutting them down
I hear you on that one. A few years after my folks had passed away we lost two cherry trees in their yard from a windstorm. Had to take them down the following spring as they never recovered.
What I managed to salvage is stickered and stacked over the garage. It's reserved for special things.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
I'm not a lumberjack, so can't say that it's my work experience that informs me about falling tree noise. I often wondered as I wandered through the old growth timber that I hunt in what a racket it must make when one of those big trees is blown down. I've seen windfalls that are six or seven feet through at the butt, and they take a few others with them when they fall. One day I found out, and it was a flat calm quiet day, but a big old spruce decided it was time to lay down. It was decidedly exciting for a short while! I think I can say it would make quite the noise even if no one was around. Verne
If a tree falls in the forest, and no one is there to cut it up and make something with it . . . what a waste!<!----><!----><!---->
leave them up untill I'm a little closer to starting.. <grin>
I have now taken to buying any good looking stack of timber my yard has no matter the amount...
I'm with you. After my move, and the delay in setting up shop I accumulated a bunch of lumber. Probably a few hundred bd ft of Cherry, and about 100 bd ft of Ash (12/4). Now that I'm back at it, it's nice to have the wood available without having to run down to the lumber yeard to pick up a few bd ft at some high price. I can just pick through the lot and get what I want.
Unless storage is at a premium I'd suggest most woodworkers would do better to skip the tool upgrade and buy the 500bd ft of lumber...
Agreed, having stock on hand is great, good ideas do not have to wait that way. I keep a fair amount of plywood around too just in case….<!----><!----><!---->
and Buster,
Yup, the best way to go. Got just enuf so I can now buy green, sticker & Stack hen let it air dry.
What's not to like,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
I routinely use 30 per cent for waste allowance and almost never have a problem. Usually I have usable scraps for future use. Forgive me for this question: Did the yard ship 5/4 or 6/4 instead of 4/4? That could easily cause the problem you describe.
Best regards, Tom.
I wish! No, I wanted 5/4 but unfortunately it was all 4/4.
My method is simple.. buy really cheap and then......
Somes good
Mores better,
too much is just starting to get fun!
Buy cheap is not much of an option around here unless you can buy in 500 bf lots. I envy those of you in the wood-producing areas of the country. Maybe I'll just have to learn to build with Mesquite, our "local" wood.Doug
Yes Build with mesquite!
absolutely!
Then contact woodmiser for their list of owners in your area.. You'd be surprised at how wide and diverse a bunch of trees get cut down even in the desert!
Getting wood isn't about going to a store someplace.. it's about knowing who is sawing and what local prices really are..
500 bd.ft?
That's not even a full load for my 1/2 T pickup!
(my standard is if I lean forward the front tires must touch the ground occasionally) <grin>
Seriously start buying wood by the bunker or stack! That get's wood at the lowst possible price..
Buy rough and green at the mill.. and air dry yourself. Mill yourself..
Never limit your wood inventory to projects on hand.. get friends and trade or swap wood heck even give wood expecting a return.
I visit San Diego every year and my buddy organizes a wood swap. I load up my pickup with whatever the sawmill has a deal on and haul it out there.
The guys each have a number and pull off a piece according to the number. then they trade and swap around untill they are all happy..
Some good ideas - thanks
I have kept records of every project for over 30 years and I have found that I calculate the exact amount of wood (bd.ft.) in the finished project and then divide by .7 and this is about perfect. Once in a while a project will take less but this is the exception. Dividing by (.7) is the same a multiplying by 1.42 so you were pretty close 47/.7=67.14 see how close you were.
I recently downloaded "cutlist", a program which will help maximize lumber usage. It will take the dimensions of a project and dimensions of available lumber and draw the best available option for cutting.
The program doesn't optimize rough cut lumber, but I found a way around that problem. In the dimensional lumber section, I entered specific dimensions that I thought I could find in hardwood: I knew the oak I wanted was available in 8' lengths and so I entered 4" widths, 5" widths, 6 and 7" widths...etc at 8 foot lengths as part of my inventory of dimensional lumber. I then entered the rough and final dimensions of the parts I needed for the blanket chest I was building and asked the program to create a cutlist from my lumber I entered into inventory. The program showed how many of each board I would need and how to cut them to maximize use. I then took that cut list to the hardwood supplier and picked out the number of each width I needed.
Using this process, my largest off-cut was about 4" long. I saved quite a bit of money in lumber and had everything I needed to complete the project.
Cutlist was available as a free download on the internet. Give it a try, I was pretty happy with it.
Thanks - I'll take a look at it. My practice to lay out all of the wood, select the boards that grain and color match for each part and then try to optimize the cuts. There is however, much waste when working with rough stock, particularly with woods that is prone to producing a lot of sapwood. Of course the sap wood can end up as secondary wood in another project.Doug
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